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Featured What does the Qur 'an say about the Bible ?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Neuropteron, Mar 15, 2019.

  1. Neuropteron

    Neuropteron Member

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    There is frequent mention in the Qu'ran about the Bible. In the beginning of the Qur'an we read "The righteous trust what has been revealed to you [to Mohammed] and to others before you, and firmly believe in the life to come. )Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow],verse 4.

    What is meant by "what has been revealed ... to others before you?
    Three separate writings are mentioned in the Qur'an. One is alluded to in the fifth Sura, Al-Ma'ida [The Table], in verses 43 and 44. There, we read: " How will they come to you for judgement, when they already have the Torah (books of Moses) which enshrines Allah's own judgement ? Soon after they are bound to ignore you" they are no true believers: There is guidance, and there is light, in the Torah which we have revealed."

    Hence , the Torah, are referred to in the Qur'an as the Word of God.

    Since the Qur'an supports these inspired writing should Muslims acknowledge the Torah, Psalms and Gospels as the Word of God and be guided by them ?
     
  2. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Quran also says that most of the Bible has been distorted by selfish unbelieving Jews.
     
  3. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    Thread moved to Religious Debates.
     
  4. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    This is the way that Muslim understanding of the text evolved, however it is more likely that the understanding evolved this way to cover textual contradictions than it is that the Prophet intended this understanding.
     
  5. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    The instruction I was given is that Muhammad PBUH saw the Christians as The People of The Book. He was friendly to Jews as long as they did not attack him. I do not think the New Testament is included. Muslims come in many different "flavors". I was first in a very conservative Masjid, but now days they would hate me, because I condemn reluctantly because Allah SWT is the judge.
     
  6. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    The Koran does appear to acknowledge that God spoke through the books of Moses, the Psalms and New Testament in the original.

    I would say we virtually do have the original Old and New Testament
     
  7. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    The Quran denies their authenticity categorically. That's where the tension lies.
     
  8. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Then you should be able to furnish the proof of that, but I think the verses are open to interpretations and have been interpreted differently throughout time, and there is real scholarship that has gone into this. I think it is time we called in our resident subject matter expert @Augustus
     
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  9. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    That's doubtful.
     
  10. Firemorphic

    Firemorphic Activist Membrane

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    No, in Islamic theology the Torah, Psalms and Gospels are the revelations given to the respective prophets (Moses, David and Jesus), not the books that also take the same names but don't date back to their lifetimes (however great they are, they are more like Hadith). The Psalms of David are considered the most in-tact, even though they are largely inspired-and-prophetic-poetry.

    Christians and Jews are considered people of the book, we hypothetically follow the same God but truth as it is, not all Jews, Christians or Muslims will go to heaven - it's not about rooting for the right football team, it's about God, integrity, faith, wisdom, gnosis. Hence why they are called "people of the book/scripture", they're both directly connected to many of the previous revelations even if they are not the revelations themselves. Like Zoroastrians, Christians and Jews have equal footing because they are close enough to the messages of God, as they originate from messages of God.

    The Islamic idea of scripture and revelation, is like Jews with "oral Torah". The Qur'an is not a narrative account, it is literal transmissions that recount bits of history as parallel to different events in Muhammad's pbuh prophethood.

    The messages from God Moses pbuh received throughout his lifetime is the true scripture, as with Jesus pbuh and any other prophet. In the Islamic view, we're the only ones who preserved the revelations themselves. But as I said, this does not discount the validity of Judaism or Christianity whatsoever.

    Islam was originally meant to be against tribalism, in favor of true recognition of The Ultimate Reality (God) but history has distorted the perception of much of it, not the scriptures themselves.

    Oneness of God is paramount, it automatically makes race, creed, religion, ideology etc etc etc etc etc all irrelevant, null, nothing, inconsequential.

    IMO and in my experience (being passionate about all original religions), The Qur'an and inner understanding of Islam UNIFIES Zoroastrianism, Taoism, Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, Manichaeism etc.

    Most aren't wise enough to see though.
     
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  11. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    The general understanding is that they are right when they agree with Islamic understandings, and corrupted when they don't. The Quran is often in critical discourse with Biblical and para-Biblical literature as reflects the diversity of Judaeo-Christian traditions in the Late Antique Middle East.

    We can observe from our own experience that new religions emerge in a polemical environment. Establishment religions object to the threat of a new religion and try to delegitimize it, while the newly emerging religion preaches the failure of the establishment religion(s) to meet the spiritual or social needs of the new generation. In short, establishment religions can never countenance the emergence of new religious movements. They inevitably attempt to do away with them. New religious movements can only succeed when they incorporate many of the central motifs of establishment religions while preaching the failure of the very traditions from which they obtain many of their basic traits. This polemical relationship may also be observed in scripture, which inevitably records the tensions between the new religion it represents and the establishment religion(s) out of which it, directly or indirectly, evolved. The Hebrew Bible seems almost constantly to refer to the evils and the temptations of the Canaanites and their religions,5 and the New Testament repeatedly condemns the perfidy and inadequacy of Jews and Greco- Romans and their religions.6

    The Qur’aan exhibits the same tension described here. In fact, it contains so many parallels with the Hebrew Bible and New Testament that it could not possibly exist without its scriptural predecessors as subtexts. The Qur’aan itself recognizes this in its extremely referential nature. For example, the ubiquitous construct introducing narrative fragments, wa’idh “and then,” has come to be understood by qur’aanic audiences as uthkur maa kaana “remember what occurred.”7 As in the case of the Hebrew Bible and New Testament, the argumentative nature of many intentional qur’aanic references to prior scripture reveals the polemical environment out of which Islam emerged.

    The Qur’aan and the Bible: Some Modern Studies of Their Relationship - Reuven Firestone

    The relationship between the Bible and the Quran is somewhat ambiguous though and people's perspectives have changed over time.


    Early Muslims perceived that there was a close relationship between the Qur’aan and antecedent biblical texts and figures. In the first Islamic century, Muslim exegetes sought Jewish and Christian texts that would explain the qur’aanic biblical references, enhance a broad understanding of the history of revelation in general, and show in particular how the Qur’aan stood at the end of a series of revelations from God to humankind.

    The texts that came into the purview of the Muslim exegetes comprised more than just the biblical texts of Hebrew Bible and New Testament. Apocryphal and pseudepigraphical texts were used as well as midrashic and homiletic writings, often with uncertain understanding about their rela- tionship to the accepted canons of scripture in Judaism and Christianity. The result was the introduction into the Muslim understanding of the Qur’aan of a vast body of material generally termed Israa’ ıilıiyaat.

    By the end of the second and into the third Islamic centuries, the general Muslim attitude viewed the Israa’ıilıiyaat material at first with suspicion and then with hostility. In the face of polemics with Jews and Christians, who argued that the Qur’aan was merely derivative from the Bible, Muslims argued for the unique and inimitable nature of the Qur’aan. Any relationship between bib- lical figures and themes found in the Qur’aan was held to be the result of God’s previous revelation to humankind, and any differences were the result of Jews and Christians corrupting that revelation. The Qur’aan was not regarded as an imitation of the Bible. Rather, the biblical figures of the Qur’aan were thought to be incomplete foreshadows of Muh ̇ammad, who was the Seal of the Prophets and the culminating recipient of God’s Word


    A Prolegomenon to the Relation of the Qur’aan and the Bible - Vernon K. Robbins and Gordon D. Newby
     
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  12. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    I understand both Mormans and Muslims believe the Bible has been corrupted
    Jesus in his day certainly did not believe that and as far as the Old Testament we virtually have the Bible he read
     
  13. Muslimman

    Muslimman Member

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    The term Bible does not appear anywhere in the Quran. The term Old Testament and New Testament does not appear anywhere in the Quran. The Quran actually confirms the original revelation that was given to Prophet Moses called the Tawrah (Torah) and the Enjeel (the Gospel) that was revealed to Prophet Jesus.
    Islam's Stance on the Gospel and Torah
     
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  14. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    The term Bible does not appear in the Koran, but yes my implication the books of Moses and the writings of David in the Psalms and the gospels of Jesus would be considered try in the original
    Also Jonah, Isaiah and others were called prophets

    Mohammed in his day in the 6th century called on the Jews to check the law and Christians to check the gospels, What books would be be referring to for them to check? or am I getting something wrong?
     
    #14 whirlingmerc, Mar 16, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  15. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    It seems to affirm in some sense Moses, David and writings of the apostles about Jesus in some sense were available in the 6th century for Mohammed to be able to command Jews and Christians to check.

    It certainly seems so. Am I wrong? Jesus said 'the scriptures cannot be broken' and
    frequently quoted them as did every apostle. Why might that be?
     
    #15 whirlingmerc, Mar 16, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  16. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I'm good with that except that I have trouble with the Bible after the words of Jesus at times.

    Just my opinion here. I think the Old Testament reveals a God of astonishing mercy. After I read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, I had a "sense" that I knew Jesus, and could trust him. After that I worry that Christianity left the true path, and now I wonder if it gets worse every day?
     
  17. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Depends if you mean 'churchianity' or 'christianity' I suppose
    People are sinners in need of forgiveness. True in the Old and New Testaments. David even wrote a spectacular fPsalm seeking forgiveness after his messy situation with the wife of another

    Ellen, is there a partitcular example of words of Jesus you wonder about?
     
  18. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Pyrphóros ⚡ Lux Aeterna
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    Verse, please?
     
  19. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Yes please share

    Nowhere does Al-Qur'an accuse Christians of changing the written words of the Holy Books of the Jews and the Christians. It only accuses the People of the Book of "taharif" -- changing the meaning with their tongue, and keeping hidden other portions of scripture.

    There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues:
    Surat-u Ali-Imran (3):78
     
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  20. Muslimman

    Muslimman Member

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    Which ayah are you referring to ?
     
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