What does the Pope mean to you? (Catholic)

[TagliatelliMonster]

Here is what Canon Law (current) states in regards the position of the 'pope' (aka "First See'):

" … Can. 1404 The First See is judged by no one. …" [Roman Catholic Canon Law; BOOK VII PROCESSES; Part I. TRIALS IN GENERAL (Cann. 1400 – 1403); TITLE I. THE COMPETENT FORUM (Cann. 1404 - 1416)] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P5A.HTM

" … Can. 1406 §1. If the prescript of ⇒ can. 1404 is violated, the acts and decisions are considered as not to have been placed.

§2. In the cases mentioned in ⇒ can. 1405, the incompetence of other judges is absolute. …" [Roman Catholic Canon Law; BOOK VII PROCESSES; Part I. TRIALS IN GENERAL (Cann. 1400 – 1403); TITLE I. THE COMPETENT FORUM (Cann. 1404 - 1416)] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P5A.HTM​

" … Can. 1405 §1. It is solely the right of the Roman Pontiff himself to judge in the cases mentioned in ⇒ can. 1401:

1/ those who hold the highest civil office of a state;

2/ cardinals;

3/ legates of the Apostolic See and, in penal cases, bishops;

4/ other cases which he has called to his own judgment.

§2. A judge cannot review an act or instrument confirmed specifically (in forma specifica) by the Roman Pontiff without his prior mandate.

§3. Judgment of the following is reserved to the Roman Rota:

1/ bishops in contentious matters, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 1419, §2;

2/ an abbot primate or abbot superior of a monastic congregation and a supreme moderator of religious institutes of pontifical right;

3/ dioceses or other physical or juridic ecclesiastical persons which do not have a superior below the Roman Pontiff. …" [Roman Catholic Canon Law; BOOK VII PROCESSES; Part I. TRIALS IN GENERAL (Cann. 1400 – 1403); TITLE I. THE COMPETENT FORUM (Cann. 1404 - 1416)] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P5A.HTM​

Tell me therefore, if you will, did you understand what was stated? If so, please voice this explicitly.

Secondly:

" … Can. 1371 The following are to be punished with a just penalty:

1/ in addition to the case mentioned in ⇒ can. 1364, §1, a person who teaches a doctrine condemned by the Roman Pontiff or an ecumenical council or who obstinately rejects the doctrine mentioned in ⇒ can. 750, §2 or in ⇒ can. 752 and who does not retract after having been admonished by the Apostolic See or an ordinary;

2/ a person who otherwise does not obey a legitimate precept or prohibition of the Apostolic See, an ordinary, or a superior and who persists in disobedience after a warning. …" [Roman Catholic Canon Law; BOOK VI. SANCTIONS IN THE CHURCH LIBER VI. DE SANCTIONIBUS IN ECCLESIA; PART II. PENALTIES FOR INDIVIDUAL DELICTS; TITLE II DELICTS AGAINST ECCLESIASTICAL AUTHORITIES AND THE FREEDOM OF THE CHURCH (Cann. 1370 - 1377)] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P53.HTM​

" … Can. 1373 A person who publicly incites among subjects animosities or hatred against the Apostolic See or an ordinary because of some act of power or ecclesiastical ministry or provokes subjects to disobey them is to be punished by an interdict or other just penalties. …" [Roman Catholic Canon Law; BOOK VI. SANCTIONS IN THE CHURCH LIBER VI. DE SANCTIONIBUS IN ECCLESIA; PART II. PENALTIES FOR INDIVIDUAL DELICTS; TITLE II DELICTS AGAINST ECCLESIASTICAL AUTHORITIES AND THE FREEDOM OF THE CHURCH (Cann. 1370 - 1377)] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P53.HTM

" … Can. 1374 A person who joins an association which plots against the Church is to be punished with a just penalty; however, a person who promotes or directs an association of this kind is to be punished with an interdict. …" [Roman Catholic Canon Law; BOOK VI. SANCTIONS IN THE CHURCH LIBER VI. DE SANCTIONIBUS IN ECCLESIA; PART II. PENALTIES FOR INDIVIDUAL DELICTS; TITLE II DELICTS AGAINST ECCLESIASTICAL AUTHORITIES AND THE FREEDOM OF THE CHURCH (Cann. 1370 - 1377)] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P53.HTM

" … Can. 1393 A person who violates obligations imposed by a penalty can be punished with a just penalty. …" [BOOK VI. SANCTIONS IN THE CHURCH LIBER VI. DE SANCTIONIBUS IN ECCLESIA; PART II. PENALTIES FOR INDIVIDUAL DELICTS; TITLE V. DELICTS AGAINST SPECIAL OBLIGATIONS (Cann. 1392 - 1396)] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P56.HTM​

Tell me therefore, if you will, did you understand what was stated? If so, please voice this explicitly. If you do not know what a "just penalty" is, I will show you from Canon Law (current), as stated by Canon Lawyers (Roman Catholic) themselves.

I really do not care what "Canon Law" has to say about it, just like I don't care what the Quran has to say about Sharia Law.

What I care about, is how it works in practice.
And in practice, the pope is an old man in a robe who thinks he is above the law.

 

[coconut theology]

I really do not care what "Canon Law" has to say about it, just like I don't care what the Quran has to say about Sharia Law.

What I care about, is how it works in practice.
And in practice, the pope is an old man in a robe who thinks he is above the law.

That's what Canon Law just told you to your face.

Jorge Bergoglio is no mere "old man" either. Consider his history in Argentina. Look into the background of the revolution there, the murders, tortures.

By the way, you ought to care what "Sharia" has to say (Sharia means Islamic law in Arabic, so to say "Sharia law" is redundant, it's like saying Sahara desert, when Sahara means desert.)

 

[metis]

Jorge Bergoglio is no mere "old man" either. Consider his history in Argentina. Look into the background of the revolution there, the murders, tortures.

And you honestly believe he somehow condones that?

Tell me, is there any piece of anti-Catholic bigotry that you don't believe in?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If we go with the fiction that Vatican City/the Holy See is actually a country, then the Pope is the last dictator in Europe.

No, Belarus is also a dictatorship. It's an odd Stalinist holdover.

 

[coconut theology]

And you honestly believe he somehow condones that?

Tell me, is there any piece of anti-Catholic bigotry that you don't believe in?

Condones? The evidence when studied shows he directly participated, but you'll have to go hunting yourself.

 

[coconut theology]

Tell me, is there any piece of anti-Catholic bigotry that you don't believe in?

Anti-Catholicism (theology, faith and practice) is not anti-catholic (person). I am the former (hence ProteSDAnt), not the latter.

 

[metis]

Condones? The evidence when studied shows he directly participated, but you'll have to go hunting yourself.

I have two books on Pope Francis, not including myriads of magazine and internet articles from different sources, but it's your anti-Catholic bigotry that is appalling and basically anti-Christian.

PF is certainly not a perfect person, and he has admitted as such, especially as he made some mistakes when he was younger that he has lived to regret. But his work especially with the poor there in Argentina was impressive enough to warrant him being made Pope.

To put it another way, as the old saying goes, "You can have your own opinion but not your own facts". Your bigotry towards another Christian faith is appalling and defies what Jesus and Paul rather clearly stated we should not do. Do you actually believe them or are you willing to blow them off too?

 

[metis]

Anti-Catholicism (theology, faith and practice) is not anti-catholic (person). I am the former (hence ProteSDAnt), not the latter.

Bigotry is bigotry, and no song & dance will change that.

If your denomination teaches you that your bigotry and hatred is somehow morally acceptable, then maybe seek out a denomination that actually teaches that such activity is counter to what the Gospel actually says. There simply is no room for such hatred amongst Christians. Jesus said "love one another as I have loved you", not "hate one another as I have hated you". Jesus taught us the "law of love", not the "law of hate".

 

[coconut theology]

...To put it another way, as the old saying goes, "You can have your own opinion but not your own facts". ...

Even the media were surprised by his 'election' to the See. yet as for facts:

"... In 2005, human rights lawyer Myriam Bregman filed a criminal suit against Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, accusing him of conspiring with the military junta in the 1976 kidnapping of two Jesuit priests.

Several years later, the survivors of the “Dirty War” openly accused Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio of complicity in the kidnapping of priests Francisco Jalics y Orlando Yorio as well six members of their parish (who were disappeared), (El Mundo, 8 November 2010). ..." - Who is Pope Francis? Jorge Mario Bergoglio and Argentina's "Dirty War" - Global Research​

"... Bergoglio, who at the time was “Provincial” for the Society of Jesus, had ordered the two “Leftist” Jesuit priests and opponents of military rule “to leave their pastoral work” (i.e. they were fired) following divisions within the Society of Jesus regarding the role of the Catholic Church and its relations to the military Junta.

While the two priests Francisco Jalics y Orlando Yorio, kidnapped by the death squads in May 1976 were released five months later. after having been tortured, six other people associated with their parish kidnapped as part of the same operation were “disappeared” (desaparecidos). These included four teachers associated with the parish and two of their husbands.

Upon his release, Priest Orlando Yorio “accused Bergoglio of effectively handing them over [including six other people] to the death squads … Jalics refused to discuss the complaint after moving into seclusion in a German monastery.” (Associated Press, March 13, 2013, emphasis added),

“During the first trial of leaders of the military junta in 1985, Yorio declared, “I am sure that he himself gave over the list with our names to the Navy.” The two were taken to the notorious Navy School of Mechanics (ESMA) torture center and held for over five months before being drugged and dumped in a town outside the city. (See Bill van Auken, “The Dirty War” Pope, World Socialist Website and Global Research, March 14, 2013

Among those “disappeared” by the death squads were Mónica Candelaria Mignone and María Marta Vázquez Ocampo, respectively daughter of the founder of of the CELS (Centro de Estudios Legales y Sociales) Emilio Mignone and daughter of the president of Madres de Plaza de Mayo, Martha Ocampo de Vázquez. (El Periodista Online, March 2013).

María Marta Vásquez, her husband César Lugones (see picture right) and Mónica Candelaria Mignone allegedly “handed over to the death squads” by Jesuit “Provincial” Jorge Mario Bergoglio are among the thousands of “desaparecidos” (disappeared) of Argentina’s “Dirty War”, which was supported covertly by Washington under “Operation Condor”. (See memorialmagro.com.ar)

In the course of the trial initiated in 2005:

“Bergoglio [Pope Francis I] twice invoked his right under Argentine law to refuse to appear in open court, and when he eventually did testify in 2010, his answers were evasive”: “At least two cases directly involved Bergoglio. One examined the torture of two of his Jesuit priests — Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics — who were kidnapped in 1976 from the slums where they advocated liberation theology. Yorio accused Bergoglio of effectively handing them over to the death squads... by declining to tell the regime that he endorsed their work. Jalics refused to discuss it after moving into seclusion in a German monastery.” (Los Angeles Times, April 1, 2005 emphasis added)

The Secret Memorandum

The military government acknowledged in a Secret Memo (see below) that Father Bergoglio had accused the two priests of having established contacts with the guerilleros, and for having disobeyed the orders of the Church hierarchy (Conflictos de obedecencia). It also stated that the Jesuit order had demanded the dissolution of their group and that they had refused to abide by Bergoglio’s instructions.

The document acknowledges that the “arrest” of the two priests, who were taken to the torture and detention center at the Naval School of Mechanics, ESMA, was based on information transmitted by Father Bergoglio to the military authorities. (signed by Mr. Orcoyen)

(see below).

While a former member of the priests group had joined the insurgency, there was no evidence of the priests having contacts with the guerrilla movement.

“Holy Communion for the Dictators”

The accusations directed against Bergoglio regarding the two kidnapped Jesuit priests and six members of their parish are but the tip of the iceberg. While Bergoglio was an important figure in the Catholic Church, he was certainly not alone in supporting the Military Junta.

According to lawyer Myriam Bregman: “Bergoglio’s own statements proved church officials knew from early on that the junta was torturing and killing its citizens”, and yet publicly endorsed the dictators. “The dictatorship could not have operated this way without this key support,” (Los Angeles Times, April 1, 2005 emphasis added) ..." - Who is Pope Francis? Jorge Mario Bergoglio and Argentina's "Dirty War" - Global Research

"... “I can’t believe it. I’m so distressed and full of anger that I don’t know what to do,” wrote the sister of deceased priest and torture victim Orlando Yorio in an e-mail to the journalist Horacio Berbitsky. “Now he’s achieved what he wanted.”

“He,” for Graciela Yorio, refers to a power-hungry man who betrayed her brother and the Hungarian Jesuit Franz Jalics to Argentina’s mililtary dictatorshop. A man who did nothing to stop the two faithful from being locked up in prison for five months and tortured. “He” is Pope Francis, then still known as Jorge Mario Bergoglio, provincial of the Argentine Jesuits. ..." - Pope Francis Had Dubious Role in Argentine Military Dictatorship - DER SPIEGEL - International​

 

[metis]

Even the media were surprised by his 'election' to the See. yet as for facts:

"... In 2005, human rights lawyer Myriam Bregman filed a criminal suit against Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, accusing him of conspiring with the military junta in the 1976 kidnapping of two Jesuit priests.

Several years later, the survivors of the “Dirty War” openly accused Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio of complicity in the kidnapping of priests Francisco Jalics y Orlando Yorio as well six members of their parish (who were disappeared), (El Mundo, 8 November 2010). ..." - Who is Pope Francis? Jorge Mario Bergoglio and Argentina's "Dirty War" - Global Research​

"... Bergoglio, who at the time was “Provincial” for the Society of Jesus, had ordered the two “Leftist” Jesuit priests and opponents of military rule “to leave their pastoral work” (i.e. they were fired) following divisions within the Society of Jesus regarding the role of the Catholic Church and its relations to the military Junta.

While the two priests Francisco Jalics y Orlando Yorio, kidnapped by the death squads in May 1976 were released five months later. after having been tortured, six other people associated with their parish kidnapped as part of the same operation were “disappeared” (desaparecidos). These included four teachers associated with the parish and two of their husbands.

Upon his release, Priest Orlando Yorio “accused Bergoglio of effectively handing them over [including six other people] to the death squads … Jalics refused to discuss the complaint after moving into seclusion in a German monastery.” (Associated Press, March 13, 2013, emphasis added),

“During the first trial of leaders of the military junta in 1985, Yorio declared, “I am sure that he himself gave over the list with our names to the Navy.” The two were taken to the notorious Navy School of Mechanics (ESMA) torture center and held for over five months before being drugged and dumped in a town outside the city. (See Bill van Auken, “The Dirty War” Pope, World Socialist Website and Global Research, March 14, 2013

Among those “disappeared” by the death squads were Mónica Candelaria Mignone and María Marta Vázquez Ocampo, respectively daughter of the founder of of the CELS (Centro de Estudios Legales y Sociales) Emilio Mignone and daughter of the president of Madres de Plaza de Mayo, Martha Ocampo de Vázquez. (El Periodista Online, March 2013).

María Marta Vásquez, her husband César Lugones (see picture right) and Mónica Candelaria Mignone allegedly “handed over to the death squads” by Jesuit “Provincial” Jorge Mario Bergoglio are among the thousands of “desaparecidos” (disappeared) of Argentina’s “Dirty War”, which was supported covertly by Washington under “Operation Condor”. (See memorialmagro.com.ar)

In the course of the trial initiated in 2005:

“Bergoglio [Pope Francis I] twice invoked his right under Argentine law to refuse to appear in open court, and when he eventually did testify in 2010, his answers were evasive”: “At least two cases directly involved Bergoglio. One examined the torture of two of his Jesuit priests — Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics — who were kidnapped in 1976 from the slums where they advocated liberation theology. Yorio accused Bergoglio of effectively handing them over to the death squads... by declining to tell the regime that he endorsed their work. Jalics refused to discuss it after moving into seclusion in a German monastery.” (Los Angeles Times, April 1, 2005 emphasis added)

The Secret Memorandum

The military government acknowledged in a Secret Memo (see below) that Father Bergoglio had accused the two priests of having established contacts with the guerilleros, and for having disobeyed the orders of the Church hierarchy (Conflictos de obedecencia). It also stated that the Jesuit order had demanded the dissolution of their group and that they had refused to abide by Bergoglio’s instructions.

The document acknowledges that the “arrest” of the two priests, who were taken to the torture and detention center at the Naval School of Mechanics, ESMA, was based on information transmitted by Father Bergoglio to the military authorities. (signed by Mr. Orcoyen)

(see below).

While a former member of the priests group had joined the insurgency, there was no evidence of the priests having contacts with the guerrilla movement.

“Holy Communion for the Dictators”

The accusations directed against Bergoglio regarding the two kidnapped Jesuit priests and six members of their parish are but the tip of the iceberg. While Bergoglio was an important figure in the Catholic Church, he was certainly not alone in supporting the Military Junta.

According to lawyer Myriam Bregman: “Bergoglio’s own statements proved church officials knew from early on that the junta was torturing and killing its citizens”, and yet publicly endorsed the dictators. “The dictatorship could not have operated this way without this key support,” (Los Angeles Times, April 1, 2005 emphasis added) ..." - Who is Pope Francis? Jorge Mario Bergoglio and Argentina's "Dirty War" - Global Research

"... “I can’t believe it. I’m so distressed and full of anger that I don’t know what to do,” wrote the sister of deceased priest and torture victim Orlando Yorio in an e-mail to the journalist Horacio Berbitsky. “Now he’s achieved what he wanted.”

“He,” for Graciela Yorio, refers to a power-hungry man who betrayed her brother and the Hungarian Jesuit Franz Jalics to Argentina’s mililtary dictatorshop. A man who did nothing to stop the two faithful from being locked up in prison for five months and tortured. “He” is Pope Francis, then still known as Jorge Mario Bergoglio, provincial of the Argentine Jesuits. ..." - Pope Francis Had Dubious Role in Argentine Military Dictatorship - DER SPIEGEL - International​

First of all, what you posted above I've been already basically familiar with, and this does not change anything that I posted.

What the main issue I'm addressing is your hate-filled bigotry against another Christian faith, which Jesus and Paul taught us not to do. If you continue to defy their teachings on this, then maybe the real onus is on you.

To put it another way, the Pope has confessed to many of his wrongdoings, but you can't seemingly admit your own hated and bigotry on this.

 

[coconut theology]

First of all, what you posted above I've been already basically familiar with, and this does not change anything that I posted. ...

Let's make sure then that everyone is aware of it, shall we?

"... Cardinal Danneels Admits to Being Part of 'Mafia' Club Opposed to Benedict XVI
New authorised biography also reveals papal delegate at upcoming synod wrote letter to Belgium government supporting same-sex "marriage" legislation because it ended discrimination against LGBT groups
Edward Pentin

Further serious concerns are being raised about Cardinal Godfried Danneels, one of the papal delegates chosen to attend the upcoming Ordinary Synod on the Family, after the archbishop emeritus of Brussels confessed this week to being part of a radical "mafia" reformist group opposed to Benedict XVI.

It was also revealed this week that he once wrote a letter to the Belgium government favoring same-sex "marriage" legislation because it ended discrimination against LGBT groups.

The cardinal is already known for having once advised the king of Belgium to sign an abortion law in 1990, for telling a victim of clerical sex abuse to keep quiet, and for refusing to forbid pornographic, “educational” materials being used in Belgian Catholic schools.

He also once said same-sex “marriage” was a “positive development,” although he has sought to distinguish such a union from the Church’s understanding of marriage.

According to a forthcoming authorized biography on the cardinal co-written by Jürgen Mettepenningen, a former spokesman for Cardinal Danneels' successor, Archbishop Andre Joseph Leonard, and Karim Schelkens, a Church historian and theologian, the cardinal expressed satisfaction over the disappearance of “discrimination” against LGBT couples after legislation was passed approving same-sex "marriage" in 2003.

The authors of the biography, to be published Sept. 29, reveal that the cardinal wrote a letter on May 28, 2003, to then-Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt, who at that time was putting together his second government.

In the letter, the cardinal wrote favorably about "one of the last achievements of Verhofstadt’s first governments, the approval of a legal statute for a stable relationship between partners of the same sex." Verhofstadt’s government introduced same sex-‘marriage’ into Belgium in 2003.

"He wanted to stop discrimination between married heterosexuals and homosexuals who had a long-term relationship," write the two authors of the biography. "But there should be no confusion between the use of the term ‘marriage’."

Asked about the letter, Verhofstadt said he did not recall it, but added: “I never had any problem with the cardinal. Our relationship was good.”

Under Verhofstadt’s leadership, from 1999 to 2007, the Belgian government not only introduced same sex “marriage”, but also laws on euthanasia, experiments on human embryos, and IVF.

Despite the poor record of the Belgian Church in resisting these laws, and the country being far smaller than many African countries that have one delegate representing them, Cardinal Danneels, 82, will be one of three Belgian prelates to attend the synod in October.

The Vatican listed him second in importance out of 45 delegates personally chosen by Pope Francis to participate in the upcoming meeting. He also took part in last year’s Extraordinary Synod as a papal delegate.

At the launch of the book in Brussels this week, the cardinal said he was part of a secret club of cardinals opposed to Pope Benedict XVI.

He called it a "mafia" club that bore the name of St. Gallen. The group wanted a drastic reform of the Church, to make it "much more modern", and for Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio to head it. The group, which also comprised Cardinal Walter Kasper and the late Jesuit Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, has been documented in Austen Ivereigh's biography of Pope Francis, The Great Reformer.

***

Italian Vaticanista Marco Tosatti has a bit more on this in La Stampa (in Italian)...." - Cardinal Danneels Admits to Being Part of 'Mafia' Club Opposed to Benedict XVI

 

[metis]

Let's make sure then that everyone is aware of it, shall we?

"... Cardinal Danneels Admits to Being Part of 'Mafia' Club Opposed to Benedict XVI
New authorised biography also reveals papal delegate at upcoming synod wrote letter to Belgium government supporting same-sex "marriage" legislation because it ended discrimination against LGBT groups
Edward Pentin

Further serious concerns are being raised about Cardinal Godfried Danneels, one of the papal delegates chosen to attend the upcoming Ordinary Synod on the Family, after the archbishop emeritus of Brussels confessed this week to being part of a radical "mafia" reformist group opposed to Benedict XVI.

It was also revealed this week that he once wrote a letter to the Belgium government favoring same-sex "marriage" legislation because it ended discrimination against LGBT groups.

The cardinal is already known for having once advised the king of Belgium to sign an abortion law in 1990, for telling a victim of clerical sex abuse to keep quiet, and for refusing to forbid pornographic, “educational” materials being used in Belgian Catholic schools.

He also once said same-sex “marriage” was a “positive development,” although he has sought to distinguish such a union from the Church’s understanding of marriage.

According to a forthcoming authorized biography on the cardinal co-written by Jürgen Mettepenningen, a former spokesman for Cardinal Danneels' successor, Archbishop Andre Joseph Leonard, and Karim Schelkens, a Church historian and theologian, the cardinal expressed satisfaction over the disappearance of “discrimination” against LGBT couples after legislation was passed approving same-sex "marriage" in 2003.

The authors of the biography, to be published Sept. 29, reveal that the cardinal wrote a letter on May 28, 2003, to then-Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt, who at that time was putting together his second government.

In the letter, the cardinal wrote favorably about "one of the last achievements of Verhofstadt’s first governments, the approval of a legal statute for a stable relationship between partners of the same sex." Verhofstadt’s government introduced same sex-‘marriage’ into Belgium in 2003.

"He wanted to stop discrimination between married heterosexuals and homosexuals who had a long-term relationship," write the two authors of the biography. "But there should be no confusion between the use of the term ‘marriage’."

Asked about the letter, Verhofstadt said he did not recall it, but added: “I never had any problem with the cardinal. Our relationship was good.”

Under Verhofstadt’s leadership, from 1999 to 2007, the Belgian government not only introduced same sex “marriage”, but also laws on euthanasia, experiments on human embryos, and IVF.

Despite the poor record of the Belgian Church in resisting these laws, and the country being far smaller than many African countries that have one delegate representing them, Cardinal Danneels, 82, will be one of three Belgian prelates to attend the synod in October.

The Vatican listed him second in importance out of 45 delegates personally chosen by Pope Francis to participate in the upcoming meeting. He also took part in last year’s Extraordinary Synod as a papal delegate.

At the launch of the book in Brussels this week, the cardinal said he was part of a secret club of cardinals opposed to Pope Benedict XVI.

He called it a "mafia" club that bore the name of St. Gallen. The group wanted a drastic reform of the Church, to make it "much more modern", and for Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio to head it. The group, which also comprised Cardinal Walter Kasper and the late Jesuit Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, has been documented in Austen Ivereigh's biography of Pope Francis, The Great Reformer.

***

Italian Vaticanista Marco Tosatti has a bit more on this in La Stampa (in Italian)...." - Cardinal Danneels Admits to Being Part of 'Mafia' Club Opposed to Benedict XVI​

Let us know when you are going to be honest enough to admit your own hatred and bigotry, OK? If not, then maybe look up the word "hypocrisy".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That's what Canon Law just told you to your face.

Jorge Bergoglio is no mere "old man" either. Consider his history in Argentina. Look into the background of the revolution there, the murders, tortures.

Or look into how the vatican, with approval of the pope, continues to move its priests and pastors around to avoid having them brought to justice for pedophelia and sexual abuse.

By the way, you ought to care what "Sharia" has to say (Sharia means Islamic law in Arabic, so to say "Sharia law" is redundant, it's like saying Sahara desert, when Sahara means desert.)

Again, I don't care.
I care how it works in practice, how it is actually implemented.

Just like I don't care how the quran says that islam is a "religion of peace". What I care about is how it works in practice. And in practice, I see islamic jihadi militia after militia act in the most gruesome ways and islamic countries, with shariah law implemented, abusing and oppressing its citizens, mutilating them, publicly executing them, putting their women in bags, forbidding their daughters to go to school, etc.


I care about reality. Not about what some book or text or what-have-you says that reality ought to be like.

And the pope, and by extension the catholic enterprise, is no different.

 

[coconut theology]

Or look into how the vatican, with approval of the pope, continues to move its priests and pastors around to avoid having them brought to justice for pedophelia and sexual abuse.



Again, I don't care.
I care how it works in practice, how it is actually implemented.

Just like I don't care how the quran says that islam is a "religion of peace". What I care about is how it works in practice. And in practice, I see islamic jihadi militia after militia act in the most gruesome ways and islamic countries, with shariah law implemented, abusing and oppressing its citizens, mutilating them, publicly executing them, putting their women in bags, forbidding their daughters to go to school, etc.

I care about reality. Not about what some book or text or what-have-you says that reality ought to be like.

And the pope, and by extension the catholic enterprise, is no different.

I understand. I am just saying that their theological sources actually do blatantly teach death to heretics, etc, both Roman Catholicism and Islam (which is derived in part of the former). For instance, Roman Catholicism's position (still current Canon Law, citations upon request):

“...C. XLVII. Non sunt homicidae qui adversus excommunicatos zelo matris ecclesiae armantur ..."

“...Those are not to be accounted murderers who, fired with zeal for mother church, have killed excommunicated persons. ...” [“The Decretum of Gratian Part 2 Case 23 Question 5 chapter 47-48”; Decreti Secunda Pars Causa XXIII. Quest. V. c. 47-49; [47,48 specifically; section 49 given in 'defense' of these actions/reasons]] - Columbia University Libraries: Corpus iuris canonici. (v. 1)= and Columbia University Libraries: Corpus iuris canonici. (v. 1)=​

Islam's same position is found in Surah Al-Tawbah or Bara'ah (9).

Surah 9:29 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... Fight those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. ...”​

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 73 -

“... Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abi Aufa: Allah's Apostle said, “Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords.” ...”​

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 79 -

“... Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: On the day of the Conquest (of Mecca) the Prophet said, “There is no emigration after the Conquest but Jihad and intentions. When you are called (by the Muslim ruler) for fighting, go forth immediately.” (See Hadith No. 42) ...”
​

Islamic "peace" doesn't mean peace in the way most people, or even the gospel defines it (John 14:27), but is instead only "peace" when the whole world submits to Islam, Sharia, Allah, Muhammad, until then it is the Dar al-Harb (house/division of war).

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Only those interested in history, truth, facts, documents, desire to be awake to the present issues in the world and or are just plain curious. Do I expect persons like you to watch them? No, you do not fit the criteria I just gave

No true Scotsman would ignore those videos.

 

[coconut theology]

No true Scotsman would ignore those videos.

Did you ignore the videos?

 

[Ancient Soul]

And you honestly believe he somehow condones that?

Tell me, is there any piece of anti-Catholic bigotry that you don't believe in?

Of course ALL the popes condone all kinds of evil actions done by the people within the Catholic Church.

 

[Ancient Soul]

I have two books on Pope Francis, not including myriads of magazine and internet articles from different sources, but it's your anti-Catholic bigotry that is appalling and basically anti-Christian.

PF is certainly not a perfect person, and he has admitted as such, especially as he made some mistakes when he was younger that he has lived to regret. But his work especially with the poor there in Argentina was impressive enough to warrant him being made Pope.

To put it another way, as the old saying goes, "You can have your own opinion but not your own facts". Your bigotry towards another Christian faith is appalling and defies what Jesus and Paul rather clearly stated we should not do. Do you actually believe them or are you willing to blow them off too?

Looking for ONLY favorable information is so typical of Christians. Always totally avoiding the UNfavorable facts they are too afraid to face.

 

[metis]

Of course ALL the popes condone all kinds of evil actions done by the people within the Catholic Church.

I don't use nor believe in stereotypes, so maybe take a check on your own ethics.

Looking for ONLY favorable information is so typical of Christians. Always totally avoiding the UNfavorable facts they are too afraid to face.

You don't know me personally or you wouldn't have said as such, so again your lack of ethics on this at least is showing.

I really don't like to have conversations with people who do these kinds of disingenuous and blatantly immoral things, thus this is my last response back to you.

IOW, "Physician, heal thyself".

 

[Ancient Soul]

Of course ALL the popes condone all kinds of evil actions done by the people within the Catholic Church.

Looking for ONLY favorable information is so typical of Christians. Always totally avoiding the UNfavorable facts they are too afraid to face.

I don't use nor believe in stereotypes, so maybe take a check on your own ethics.

You don't know me personally or you wouldn't have said as such, so again your lack of ethics on this at least is showing.

I really don't like to have conversations with people who do these kinds of disingenuous and blatantly immoral things, thus this is my last response back to you.

IOW, "Physician, heal thyself".

Classic Christian tactic!

When they have no facts to refute someone's statements, they stomp off while throwing out an arrogant condemnation to try saving face.