What does 'Masculinity' mean to you?

[Penumbra]

Do you have a definition, example, philosophy, or picture to characterize it?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

It used to mean a lot of things.

Now all it means is being a male adult.

 

[DallasApple]

I do...a man( a person with a penis and testicles and 7 X the the testosterone a "woman does) having the capability to realize people aren't "things".

 

[Penumbra]

It used to mean a lot of things.

Now all it means is being a male adult.

Maybe that's right.

Brett, the creator of a site called the Art of Manliness, realized a few years ago that he had created a wildly successful website with millions of monthly readers all about manliness, without having ever defined what it was.

So he took a shot at it, and defined it.

What I found interesting is that while it may be tempting to define it in opposition to femininity, he chose instead to define it as opposite of childhood.

There are two ways to define manhood. One way is to say that manhood is the opposite of womanhood. The other is to say that manhood is the opposite of childhood.

The former seems to be quite popular, but it often leads to a superficial kind of manliness. Men who ascribe to this philosophy end up cultivating a manliness concerned with outward characteristics. They worry about whether x,y, or z is manly and whether the things they enjoy and do are effeminate because many women also enjoy them.

I subscribe to the latter philosophy. Manhood is the opposite of childhood and concerns one’s inner values. A child is self-centered, fearful, and dependent. A man is bold, courageous, respectful, independent and of service to others. Thus a man becomes a man when he matures and leaves behind childish things. Likewise, a woman becomes a woman when she matures into real adulthood.

 

[Pegg]

Do you have a definition, example, philosophy, or picture to characterize it?

masculine qualities have been defined by God who created men to be masculine....that is they were to be leaders and guides for their families. they were to instruct and teach, they were to take the lead in working for the betterment of others.

So that is what a true masculine man does. he's a go-getter, self motivated, creative, explorative individual who works for he good of others.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

What I found interesting is that while it may be tempting to define it in opposition to femininity, he chose instead to define it as opposite of childhood.

Which does however pose an issue, in that it would mean masculinity and femininity are identical with the exception of gender - this is something intuitively we can recognise as being false. There ARE differences, exactly what those might be is extremely difficult to determine, but masculinity and femininity are not synonymous (ignoring gender) by any stretch of the imagination whether in principle or in practice. It would actually be very interesting to hear what a member of the transgendered community might have to say about this tbh.

 

[Sunstone]

As I was growing up, I was taught that masculinity was in opposition to femininity, rather than in opposition to childhood (which makes more sense, if you ask me now). The characteristics I was taught to associate with masculinity were rather superficial. Stoic, taciturn, aggressive -- that sort of thing. I learned these things much more from my community than from my own family. In my family, there was little or nothing said about such things.

 

[DallasApple]

Thus a man becomes a man when he matures and leaves behind childish things. Likewise, a woman becomes a woman when she matures into real adulthood.

thats close to the definition of love in the Bible..

1 Corinthians 13
New International Version (NIV)
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Footnotes:

 

[Penumbra]

masculine qualities have been defined by God who created men to be masculine....that is they were to be leaders and guides for their families. they were to instruct and teach, they were to take the lead in working for the betterment of others.

So that is what a true masculine man does. he's a go-getter, self motivated, creative, explorative individual who works for he good of others.

Can you show me where your god defined this?

 

[Quintessence]

I'm going to go with this picture:

Same thing for your other thread.

 

[Pegg]

Can you show me where your god defined this?

At Genesis 1;28 we learn of the role assigned to the man. He was to take the lead as head of his wife and children. He was also to comply with God’s will to fill the earth, subdue it, and have all lower earthly creation in subjection.
26*And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.” 27*And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28*Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.


for him to accomplish that, he would need to be making active decisions and working to accomplish his assigned task.

Later when Eve was created, God assigned her as the mans 'helper'. So she wasnt in competition with him, she was to act as a support to man in the work he was assigned. And that is where the 'feminine' role comes into it.
Genesis 2:18 *And Jehovah God went on to say: “It is not good for the man to continue by himself. I am going to make a helper for him, as a complement of him

Masculine = leadership/pro-active/creative
Feminine = submissive/supportive/complementary

when the two work together, they can work as a single unit.

 

[Penumbra]

Which does however pose an issue, in that it would mean masculinity and femininity are identical with the exception of gender - this is something intuitively we can recognise as being false. There ARE differences, exactly what those might be is extremely difficult to determine, but masculinity and femininity are not synonymous (ignoring gender) by any stretch of the imagination whether in principle or in practice.

Well in that article I linked to, Brett did say that as well. He pointed out that while he believes men and women are different, he doesn't think it's best to define manliness in opposition to womanliness, but that rather the core of manliness is the opposite of childhood, and likewise, womanliness is also the opposite of childhood, but different in subtle ways.

So he states that they are different, but he's wise enough not to start defining a culturally-specific list of things about what the differences "should" or "ought to" be. He keeps the focus on building up masculinity in positive terms, equating it with virtue, without characterizing it in opposition to anything else (except the lack of virtue), which I think is a healthier way to go about it than most people do.

It would actually be very interesting to hear what a member of the transgendered community might have to say about this tbh.

I've personally asked more than one of them that question, actually.

 

[Penumbra]

At Genesis 1;28 we learn of the role assigned to the man. He was to take the lead as head of his wife and children. He was also to comply with God’s will to fill the earth, subdue it, and have all lower earthly creation in subjection.

for him to accomplish that, he would need to be making active decisions and working to accomplish his assigned task.

Later when Eve was created, God assigned her as the mans 'helper'. So she wasnt in competition with him, she was to act as a support to man in the work he was assigned. And that is where the 'feminine' role comes into it.
Genesis 2:18

Who wrote Genesis?

Masculine = leader
Feminine = submissive

when the two work together, they can work as a single unit.

What do you believe it is about a man that should make him the leader?

 

[Aquitaine]

Maybe that's right.

Brett, the creator of a site called the Art of Manliness, realized a few years ago that he had created a wildly successful website with millions of monthly readers all about manliness, without having ever defined what it was.

So he took a shot at it, and defined it.

What I found interesting is that while it may be tempting to define it in opposition to femininity, he chose instead to define it as opposite of childhood.

In that case, why not just refer to it as "Adulthood" (the removal of childish traits etc) rather than as "Manliness" or "Manhood"?

Anyways, to answer your question: to me "Masculinity" is a somewhat slowly changing concept which is applied to things generally associated with Male gender roles/identity.
For example: "Tomboy" or a Female having a muscular frame my be considered "Masculine".

 

[Pegg]

Who wrote Genesis?

\

moses

What do you believe it is about a man that should make him the leader?

simply because he was created with the frame of mind to take the lead. He can do a good job of that when he is supported and we can see how many successful men there are in the world. They are born with the potential to be great leaders.

im not saying they all are great leaders... a lot depends on his motives and goals in life. A bad leader does not mean he's living up to what a true masculine man should be.

 

[Penumbra]

In that case, why not just refer to it as "Adulthood" (the removal of childish traits etc) rather than as "Manliness" or "Manhood"?

Because he wanted to make a website mostly for men (and was wildly successful with his branding- it wouldn't have taken off like it did any other way) to be a counter to the typical men's magazine that shows six packs abs, sports cars, and lists of the hottest women, as he described it. He specifically wanted to reclaim manliness in positive terms. But, he's a smart guy, and careful not to put controversial statements about gender differences on his site. He believes manliness and womanliness are different but, being a man, doesn't feel he's the best person to talk about what womanliness should be, other than that he doesn't want to position manliness in opposition to it.

Hence, his site ends up being about manliness, is mostly read by men, but is nonetheless useful for both men and women, because 90+% of the content applies to women as well (which is an important observation in and of itself, imo).

Anyways, to answer your question: to me "Masculinity" is a somewhat slowly changing concept which is applied to things generally associated with Male gender roles/identity.
For example: "Tomboy" or a Female having a muscular frame my be considered "Masculine".

What would you describe a male gender role or identity to be?

 

[Sunstone]

Since this is a debate thread, I take exception with any notion along the lines that men, by virtue of their masculinity, should assume a leadership role, while women, by virtue of their femininity, should assume a submissive role. I suppose if you define "masculinity" and "femininity" in those terms, it's a circular argument, but I do not believe that is an empirically meaningful definition of those two terms. Instead, whatever empirical differences there are between men and women do not extend to who is dominant, and who is submissive, in a given relationship.

 

[Penumbra]

moses

How do you know?

But also, I asked where your god defined this, and you pointed to Genesis, but you said Moses wrote Genesis?

simply because he was created with the frame of mind to take the lead. He can do a good job of that when he is supported and we can see how many successful men there are in the world. They are born with the potential to be great leaders.

im not saying they all are great leaders... a lot depends on his motives and goals in life. A bad leader does not mean he's living up to what a true masculine man should be.

So how do you think a situation should go in a case where there's a man and a woman, and the woman is more knowledgeable and assertive about the situation than the man is?

Who should lead?

 

[Penumbra]

Since this is a debate thread, I take exception with any notion along the lines that men, by virtue of their masculinity, should assume a leadership role, while women, by virtue of their femininity, should assume a submissive role. I suppose if you define "masculinity" and "femininity" in those terms, it's a circular argument, but I do not believe that is an empirically meaningful definition of those two terms. Instead, whatever empirical differences there are between men and women do not extend to who is dominant, and who is submissive, in a given relationship.

I agree.

 

[Pegg]

How do you know?

But also, I asked where your god defined this, and you pointed to Genesis, but you said Moses wrote Genesis?

So how do you think a situation should go in a case where there's a man and a woman, and the woman is more knowledgeable and assertive about the situation than the man is?

Who should lead?

that depends on the situation. I didnt think this thread was a femine Vs masculine roles

in terms of masculinity, its a leadership quality. If a man doesnt know about a certain subject, then surely he can, and should, educate himself about it and make a decision.