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What does Islam believe about Jesus' Ressurection?

Discussion in 'Islam DIR' started by Gilly, Jun 15, 2004.

  1. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Comparing still more interpretations of the Qur'an, I find the following comment by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall in his introduction to his rendering of surah 86:

    "The Morning Star has here a mystic sense, and is taken to refer to the Prophet himself."

    Still (of course) no Jesus, no cross etc.
     
  2. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Your post, Apple Pie:
    "Quote:
    The reason why I and DontFearMe quote A. Yusuf Ali is that his interpretation is one of the most respected ones, although according to Muslims, no translation/interpretation can be equal to the Arabic text of the Qur'an.

    If you truly believed in the Arabic, then you would take the time to see if Yusuf Ali is accurate in his English rendering…..would you not?"

    I:
    I do. I told you.

    You:
    "Quote:
    It should be obvious that interpreting one holy book using another holy book can only be misleading, especially as your interpretation contradicts the very words of the Qur'an, for example in 4:157.

    Who ever said that it was misleading?"

    I:
    I said it. And you just quoted me. Didn't you read the quote?

    You:
    "Quote:
    Your statement "The source of the Koran is the Holy Bible…at least, the authors of the Koran thought so…" is a misunderstanding as well. The Muslim view is that all the three Abrahamic religions were given the Qur'an, but the Jews and Christians distorted it.

    Again, is this a view that comes from personal research, or is this what you were told as truth, and have yet to actually verify for yourself as truth…?"

    I:
    Professor John L. Esposito, in "Islam. The straight path." argues for this view, quoting ayahs 5:44, 5:18, 9:30-31, 5:15, 13:38-39.
    Professor H.A.R. Gibb, in "Mohammedanism" mentions 4:136. Same view.
    Professor W. Montgomery Watt, "Bell's Introduction to the Qur'an" points at 2:113. 3:23. 4:44, 4:51 and some 20 more verses.
    From what I have read, I find no reason to disagree with those three internationally acclaimed experts.

    Please explain your interpretion of surah 86. Obviously, you find no support for it here; we just don't understand the chain of thought leading to your conclusions.
     
  3. DontFearMe

    DontFearMe Member

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    What do you mean you were in que before me? I responded to your 'explanation' of Tariq and gave you verses refuting your claims one by one. What when plain evidence comes to you , you throw your fingers in your ears? You just chose not to respond because you can't refute me. Thank you much :clap:
     
  4. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    DFM, AK,

    I finally found a webpage where "The Koran, Complete Dictionary & Literal Translation, by Mohamed Ahmed" should be found. The documents seem to have been removed. I am not surprised.

    For a source of Qur'an material, including reviews of translations, have you looked at http://www.quran.org.uk/index.html ? I find it reliable and interesting.
     
  5. Apple Pie

    Apple Pie Active Member

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    Greetings anders,

    Thanks for your comments…


    That is an interesting comment.

    However, it does not appear supported by the text…




    Well….perhaps now is the opportune time to exegete the ayahs with me….and we can see where each of us differs in our understanding of the Arabic…





    Again…perhaps now is the opportune time to exegete the ayahs with me….and we can see where each of us differs in our understanding of the Arabic…





    Then, perhaps, your references may have some input into Sura 86…?

    I am looking for the details…not just the assertion….





    I have detailed it quite nicely in a previous post.

    Please tell me which specific ayah is troubling you and we can exegete that specific ayah together….OK?....thanks...

    Take care…
     
  6. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    "I am looking for the details…not just the assertion…."

    But what have you given us others? Just assertations, no mentioning of how you interpret the clear words in so different a way than all others do? What is the authority of Mohamed Ahmed and his daughter?

    Where is the mentioning of the cross in 86? Why do you think that the text refers to Jesus? How can you refute the very clear words of 4:157?
     
  7. Apple Pie

    Apple Pie Active Member

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    Greetings anders,

    Thanks for your comments…

    Like I already mentioned several times…what ayah(s) of Sura 86 are troubling you?

    I would be delighted to exegete ANY of these ayahs directly with you. However, you seem most reluctant to do this even after repeated requests…

    I have given you ample time for you to detail a response to my posts. If you are unable to make a concerted reply, then perhaps you should let others respond directly to what I have posted rather than endlessly dance around it…

    Don’t be shy…


    Thanks…
     
  8. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    One of the reasons I haven't given any ayah numbers is that I don't find any of them in support of your claims. On the contrary, I would like you to explain where and how you for example find a reference to Jesus or the cross, and why you don't acknowledge the words of 4:157.
     
  9. Apple Pie

    Apple Pie Active Member

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    Greetings anders,

    Thanks for your reply…

    Actually, all of the ayahs support my position.

    Go ahead….pick any one...and we can look at it together…





    No problem.

    I’ve taken the liberty of examining ayah 7 for mutual beneficiation…



    Exegetical Analysis:

    Ayah 7…

    7. يخرج من بين الصلب والترائب
    Yakhruju min bayni alssulbi waalttara-ibi




    يخرج = “Yakhruju”

    “Yakhruju” definition:

    He comes out. Appears, emerges, brings out. It comes from the root “kharaja”, which means to go out, go forth, come forth, deport, attack, rebel against.

    References:

    The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
    Abdul Mannan Omar
    p. 150

    The Koran
    Complete Dictionary & Literal Translation
    Mohamed Ahmed
    p. 419




    بين = “bayni”

    “bayni” definition:

    Between; Before. It comes from the root “bana”, which means to be distinct and separate, far away, remote from, divorced, clear, obvious, explain.

    Reference:

    The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
    Abdul Mannan Omar
    p. 70-71




    صلب = “ssulbi”

    “ssulbi” definition:

    Backbone; Loins; Spine. It comes from the root “salaba/saliba”, which means to put to death by crucifixion, extract marrow from bones.

    Reference:

    The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
    Abdul Mannan Omar
    p. 318

    The Koran
    Complete Dictionary & Literal Translation
    Mohamed Ahmed
    p. 71




    Reviewing “al”…

    ال= “al”

    “al” definition:

    The definite article. In Arabic it is used to give the meaning of Most, All, Complete, Maximum, Whole, and to donate comprehensiveness, that is to say all aspects or categories of a subject, or to denote perfection and includes all degrees and grades.

    It is also used to indicate something which has already been mentioned or a concept of which is in the mind of the writer or reader.

    Reference:

    The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
    Abdul Mannan Omar
    p. 25


    الصلب = “al” + “ssulbi” = “alssulbi” = backbone/loins/spine







    ترائب = “ttara-ibi”

    “ttara-ibi” definition:

    Plural noun. Breast bone; Upper part of girls chest. The rib bones. It comes from the root “tariba”, which means to have much earth, be full of earth, have dust in his hands, be destitute.

    References:

    The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
    Abdul Mannan Omar
    p. 74

    The Koran
    Complete Dictionary & Literal Translation
    Mohamed Ahmed
    p. 55

    والترائب = “wa” + “al” + “ttara-ibi” = “waalttara-ibi” = and the breast bone/rib bones


    Thus, we have this Literal rendering of 86:7…

    He comes out/emerges/appears from between the backbone/loins/spine and the breast bone/rib bones.


    Let’s examine all of the ayahs in the Koran that mention crucifixion:

    And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, Allah's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in doubt/suspicion from him, (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption , and they have not killed him surely/certainly. (4:157)

    Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan


    وماصلبوه = “wama salaboohu”

    “wama salaboohu” definition:

    They did not cause death by crucification. It comes from the root “salaba/saliba”, which means to put to death by crucifixion, extract marrow from bones.

    Reference:

    The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
    Abdul Mannan Omar
    p. 318



    But (the) reward (of) those who embattle/fight Allah and His messenger, and they strive/endeavor in the earth/Planet Earth corruption/disorder, that they be killed or they be crucified, or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposites, or they be expelled/exiled from the land, that (is) for them shame/scandal/disgrace in the present world, and for them in the end (other life is) a great torture. (5:33)

    Innama jazao allatheena yuhariboona Allaha warasoolahu wayasAAawna fee al-ardi fasadan an yuqattaloo aw yusallaboo aw tuqattaAAa aydeehim waarjuluhum min khilafin aw yunfaw mina al-ardi thalika lahum khizyun fee alddunya walahum fee al-akhirati AAathabun AAatheemun


    يصلبوا = “yusallaboo”

    “yusallaboo” definition:

    They will crucify till death. It comes from the root “salaba/saliba”, which means to put to death by crucifixion, extract marrow from bones.

    Reference:

    The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
    Abdul Mannan Omar
    p. 318


    "You my two companions/friends (of) the prison/jail, but, one of you so he gives drink an intoxicant (to) his lord, and but the other, so he be crucified/placed on a cross , so the birds eat from his head, the matter/affair which in it you ask for an opinion/clarification was passed judgment/ordered." (12:41)

    Ya sahibayi alssijni amma ahadukuma fayasqee rabbahu khamran waamma al-akharu fayuslabu fata/kulu alttayru min ra/sihi qudiya al-amru allathee feehi tastaftiyani


    فيصلب = “fayuslabu”

    “fayuslabu” definition:

    Will be crucified till death. It comes from the root “salaba/saliba”, which means to put to death by crucifixion, extract marrow from bones.

    Reference:

    The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
    Abdul Mannan Omar
    p. 318


    "I will cut off/amputate your hands and your feet from opposites, then I will crucify you/place you on crosses all/all together." (7:124)

    LaoqatiAAanna aydiyakum waarjulakum min khilafin thumma laosallibannakum ajmaAAeena

    He said: "You believed to him before that I permit for you, that he truly (is) your biggest/greatest who taught/instructed you the magic/sorcery, so I will cut off/sever your hands and your feet from opposites (sides), and I will crucify you in the palm trees' trunks/stems, and you will know which of us (is) stronger (in) torture and more lasting." (20:71)

    Qala amantum lahu qabla an athana lakum innahu lakabeerukumu allathee AAallamakumu alssihra falaoqattiAAanna aydiyakum waarjulakum min khilafin walaosallibannakum fee juthooAAi alnnakhli walataAAlamunna ayyuna ashaddu AAathaban waabqa


    He said: "You believed to him before that I permit/allow for you, that he truly is your greatest/teacher and leader who taught/instructed you the magic/sorcery, so you will/shall know I will cut off/sever your hands and your feet from opposites (sides), and I will crucify you/place you on crosses all/all together." (26:49)

    Qala amantum lahu qabla an athana lakum innahu lakabeerukumu allathee AAallamakumu alssihra falasawfa taAAlamoona laoqattiAAanna aydiyakum waarjulakum min khilafin walaosallibannakum ajmaAAeena


    ولاصلبنكم = “walaosallibannakum”

    “walaosallibannakum” definition:

    I will surely crucify till death. It comes from the root “salaba/saliba”, which means to put to death by crucifixion, extract marrow from bones.

    Reference:

    The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
    Abdul Mannan Omar
    p. 318


    Key point from all of the crucifixion ayahs:

    1) Every time crucifixion is mentioned in the Koran, the word used to describe the event can be traced back to the same root words “salaba/saliba” as utilized in ayah 7






    Summary:

    1) Ayah 7 tells us from where mankind was “created”
    2) It describes the source of the water “ma-in” that is in motion
    3) This source of the water comes from “between the backbone/loins/spine and the breast bone/rib bones
    4) “alssulbi” which is rendered backbone/loins/spine, comes from the root “salaba/saliba”, which means TO PUT TO DEATH BY CRUCIFIXION,
    5) Furthermore, investigating all the Koranic passages dealing with the crucifixion, trace their origins back to the roots “salaba/saliba”
    6) The definite article “al” in addition to signifying all aspects of a subject, can also be used to denote something which has already been mentioned or a concept of which is in the mind of the reader or writer
    7) This water is described as coming from the human anatomy
    8 ) This water, from which mankind is created, comes from “alttariqi”
    9) “alttariqi” has been given human attributes




    Hope that this helps…
     
  10. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Let's take an English sentence from a manual, describing machine maintenance: "Remove clogs from the line". Two "possible" interpretations, using dictionaries: 1) "Take away the wooden shoes from the (for example, chalked) line"; 2) "Clean the tube". Which one do you prefer?

    Many words look the same (especially in Arabic written without vowels) but have different meanings. Very clear from this example is that you must choose the one which makes sense in the given context.

    You write "the root “salaba/saliba”, which means TO PUT TO DEATH BY CRUCIFIXION". Well, the root Saluba/Saliba means "to be or become hard, firm, solid, stiff or rigid, solidify, harden, set, stiffen". You confuse this root with the root Salaba. The noun Sulb in the ayah (hard, firm, solid, stiff, rigid, spinal column, backbone, loins) clearly comes from the first root as any first year student of Arabic can tell you; the word Salb (crucifixion) (not in the ayah) comes equally clearly from the second root. So, there is no ground whatsoever for your claim. You very clearly are wrong about the root.
     
  11. Apple Pie

    Apple Pie Active Member

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    Greetings anders,

    Thanks for your comments…


    First of all, you must remember that the Classic Arabic (in which the Koran was written), is not the same as the Modern Arabic of today. Furthermore, the “original” Koran was not written with vowel markings. Hence, proper exegesis includes incorporating Lexical aids that focus on the ancient Koranic Arabic – not modern Arabic.

    Proper exegesis of the scriptures requires not only comprehending the possible meanings of the word(s) under study (including roots, etc), but the surrounding text that it resides within, as well as how and where it may be used elsewhere in scripture.

    I appreciate that you have already acknowledged the importance of context…however; you seem to have failed to put that into practice with your reply below…






    Let’s examine it again with vowel markings…

    يَخْرُجُ مِنْ بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ

    From 86:7…
    صُّلْبِ = “ssulbi” = Backbone; Loins; Spine = from the root, SALABA



    Compare to the other Koranic ayahs referencing Crucifixion…


    From 4:157…
    مَا صَلَبُوهُ = “ma salaboohu” = They did not cause death by crucification = from the root, SALABA


    From 5:33…
    يصلبوا = “yusallaboo” = They will crucify till death = from the root, SALABA


    From 12:41…
    فيصلب = “fayuslabu” = Will be crucified till death = from the root, SALABA



    From 7:124, 20:71, 26:49 …

    ولاصلبنكم = “walaosallibannakum” = I will surely crucify till death = from the root, SALABA


    References:

    The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
    Abdul Mannan Omar
    p. 318

    The Koran
    Complete Dictionary & Literal Translation
    Mohamed Ahmed
    p. 71



    As you can see for yourself, ALL the Crucifixion ayahs in the Koran have the same root “salaba”.

    I have to wonder, first of all, why you failed to compare 86:7 to the other ayahs in the Koran that mention the same thing. Remember that proper exegesis includes examining where the word, or in this case, root, is used elsewhere in scripture.

    Additionally, you have not even bothered to look at how it relates to the direct context of the ayahs that surround it in Sura 86…..why is that?

    Furthermore, you have not referenced anything in your reply. All of this makes for a very weak position for the one that you hold…..does it not?


    Thus, when you said:

    I have to agree. “Sulb” comes from the root “salaba”.

    Furthermore, “salaba” clearly means to put to death by crucifixion – of which, is blatantly supported by ALL of the other Koranic Crucifixion ayahs.



    Take care…
     
  12. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Do you agree that bat, bit, bet are different words in English? If you do, you must agree that Salb and Sulb are different words. Sulb can't come from the root Salaba/Saliba, but must be a derivation from the different root Saluba, as is clearly seen from the vowels. (As you can see, I use capital S for the emphatic Saad, to distinguish it from the non-emphatic siin.)

    You don't have to know a single word of Arabic to understand that of the two sentences "between the breastbone and the crucifixion" and "between the breastbone and the backbone", the first one is ridiculous in any context, and the second one is the only one that makes sense.

    I have studied Classical Arabic and Modern Standard Arabic, so I am not influenced in any way by modern vernaculars. If you want references fo my statemens: I have for Arabic to English used the dictionary of Hans Wehr, which is the standard work used in universities all over the world. I also checked with al-Mawrid. To be entirely on the safe side, I back-translated using The Oxford English-Arabic Dictionary and one from the well-known German publishers Langenscheidt. As to my statements on vowels in nouns vs. verbs, the normal thing is that a fu'l noun stems from a fa'ula verb and that a fa'l noun corresponds to a fa'ala/fa'ila verb. That is too well known to need any reference.

    You wrote "Furthermore, the “original” Koran was not written with vowel markings. Hence, proper exegesis includes incorporating Lexical aids that focus on the ancient Koranic Arabic – not modern Arabic." I hope that you don't mean that the vowel points may be wrong in the Qur'an as published today. I discuss the vowel that you yourself have quoted, and have used appropriate aids.

    I agree with you that Salaba/Saliba means crucify, and that this is the meaning everwhere this root is used, but its corresponding noun is Salb, not the Sulb of the ayah. (Sulb is, according to my concordance, not ocurring anywhere else in the book.)

    I repeat: there are two Sal-ba roots, and you have confused them.
     
  13. Apple Pie

    Apple Pie Active Member

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    Greetings anders,

    Thanks for your comments…

    With all due respect, we already both understand the rendering of the ayah. The point that is contested is the root of صُّلْبِ “ssulbi”.




    I have already shown you that “sulb” originates from the root “salaba”.

    Furthermore, you have already acknowledged that “salaba” means crucify.

    This can be verified by anyone willing to take the time to look it up.

    The only thing holding you back now appears to be your pride and religious convictions…am I right?








    Unfortunately, both Hans Wehr and Al-Mawarid are not dictionaries of the classical Arabic. They each are dictionaries of Modern Arabic – not the Arabic in which the Koran was written.

    In addition, you have once again avoided referencing the points in which you are attempting to make other than in a passing manner…again, adding to the lack of weight of your position…

    “The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an”, by Abdul Mannan Omar, which I frequently reference, is a Dictionary that integrates the most highly celebrated classical Arabic Lexicological works within its pages.

    Here are some of the classical lexicons integrated into Omar’s work:

    1) The Arabic English Lexicon, by E.W. Lane
    2) Lisan al-Arab, by Jamal al-Din Abu al-Fadzl Muhmmad bin Mukarram bin Manzur
    3) Al- Mufradat fi Gharib al-Quran, by Abdul Qasim al-Husain al-Raghib
    4) Taj al-Arus min Jawahir al Qamub, by Muhammad al Murtadza Husaini


    When studying the classic Arabic, it is prudent to use lexicography tailored to that which is being studied….is it not?



    Since you are extremely reluctant to show the context of ayah 7 with its neighbor ayahs, I have taken the liberty to demonstrate how it is beyond any reasonable doubt that this Sura is referring to a Death by Crucifixion Event, followed by a Resurrection Event…

    86:4 إِنْ كُلُّ نَفْسٍ لَمَّا عَلَيْهَا حَافِظٌ
    In kullu nafsin lamma AAalayha hafithun

    That truly all/everyone soul/spirit/punishment/blood to gather on it a protector/safe keeper.



    86:5 فَلْيَنظُرْ الْإِنسَنُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ
    Falyanthuri al-insanu mimma khuliqa

    So the human/mankind has an intimate connection should expect/consecrate from that which he was created.



    86:6 خُلِقَ مِنْ مَاءٍ دَافِقٍ
    Khuliqa min ma-in dafiqin

    He was created from water pouring/jetting/flowing forcefully.



    86:7 يَخْرُجُ مِنْ بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ
    Yakhruju min bayni alssulbi waalttara-ibi

    He comes out/emerges/appears from between the backbone/loins/spine and the breast bone/rib bones.



    86:8 إِنَّهُ عَلَى رَجْعِهِ لَقَادِرٌ
    Innahu AAala rajAAihi laqadirun

    When His (is) upon/near/above He returned/was brought back the one who has power over.



    It should be very clear now, regarding the event(s) that are described by the Arabic…

    I have to ask…..how could anyone miss it?


    Take care…
     
  14. ray

    ray New Member

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    i was just wondering about islam and jesus

    i think muhammad was right in saying therir is only one God. that, i think, was a major force in the right direction for those once pagan arabs
    but i think he made some mistakes in his forming of islam
    i mean, first of all with jesus. In the Quran, jesus is acknowledged to be the messiah, but he is relegated to normal prophet status. but, i was just thinking, isent this contrary to the bible?
    i mean, doesnt the bible say that jesus was God's son, ofcourse not in the physical sense, but that prior to his coming on earth, he had been like an angel in heaven.

    and the resurrection thing, like i was reading that the prophet daniel prophesised that mesiah the leader would be cut off in death.
    so, i was just thinknig, do you really beleive that the quran could be right?
     
  15. ray

    ray New Member

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    just wondering about islam and jesus

    i think muhammad was right in saying therir is only one God. that, i think, was a major force in the right direction for those once pagan arabs
    but i think he made some mistakes in his forming of islam
    i mean, first of all with jesus. In the Quran, jesus is acknowledged to be the messiah, but he is relegated to normal prophet status. but, i was just thinking, isent this contrary to the bible?
    i mean, doesnt the bible say that jesus was God's son, ofcourse not in the physical sense, but that prior to his coming on earth, he had been like an angel in heaven.

    and the resurrection thing, like i was reading that the prophet daniel prophesised that mesiah the leader would be cut off in death.
    so, i was just thinknig, do you really beleive that the quran could be right?
     
  16. croak

    croak Trickster

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    Yes, I do. Did Jesus (pbuh) ever say, "I am God's Son"? No. Did he say "Worship God?" Yes. Why didn't he just simply say "Worship me"? Because you should not worship him. He is only a Prophet. And he is not an angel.
    I don't really understand that. Could you say it again? Sorry.
     
  17. harry62

    harry62 New Member

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    Hi
    I am amazed how it is only the muslim world that denys the truth of death of the Lord Jesus the book of the prophet clearly says that the Messiah will be killed
    The Koran if i am not mistaken says that "...peace be upon me the day that i die" speaking about Jesus according to that scripture when in fact is he going to die and why
    It is said that when Jesus returns he will judge (and we know that only God will do this) mankind and also he will get married and later on die
    Where is that written in God's word? tell me where in the Koran
     
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