What does "freedom from religion" mean to you?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As in all other areas of life when a child is grown she/he will make their own decisions. It is important, I think, that they know what it is they're saying no to.

They're saying "no" to every religion except the one(s) they adopt.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Religion is by choice. For those who do not believe have a right in non-religious gatherings not to have to participate in prayer and reading of Scripture in a public, non-religious meeting etc.

I would argue that they have the right for the meeting itself to have no official prayer or reading of scripture at all.

At the very least, someone appearing before a legislative assembly should never have to wonder if they're going to be treated differently because the assembly members could see they didn't bow their head for the official prayer.

 

[pearl]

They're saying "no" to every religion except the one(s) they adopt.

I'm referring to religion in general, no particular one, iow, no belief in God so no religion.

 

[pearl]

I would argue that they have the right for the meeting itself to have no official prayer or reading of scripture at all.

I think that's what I stated.

At the very least, someone appearing before a legislative assembly should never have to wonder if they're going to be treated differently because the assembly members could see they didn't bow their head for the official prayer.

True, there ought not to be prayer mixed with a secular body.

 

[Suave]

Inspired by this thread.

I get the impression that people use the term "freedom from religion" in very different ways.

Personally, I take it to mean something like "freedom from religious impositions that would interfere with my own rights and freedoms."

However, I see other people who seem to take it to mean "a ban on all public religious expression."

Since people seem to be talking past each other on this, I figured a thread about it was in order.

How do you interpret the term?

I'd consider freedom from religion as the removal of a mechanism for maintaining tribal adhesion.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

cf. "freedom from potato crisps".

If someone were feeling impeded upon by potato crisps, then the above might be very important to them indeed.

 

[Mock Turtle]

As in all other areas of life when a child is grown she/he will make their own decisions. It is important, I think, that they know what it is they're saying no to.

Not much of a choice when it is mainly where one lives as to what one is taught though, unlike most other education.

 

[`mud]

Two many `gods` and `idols`, no one particular cause.

Again....We are part of the flowing river of life, going into the unknown.
Hope to see you all there, sometime, somewhere, we'll all have a lot of `time` to share.

In the eternal endlessness of infinity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'd consider freedom from religion as the removal of a mechanism for maintaining tribal adhesion.

How do you figure?

(And how are you defining "tribe"?)

 

[Suave]

How do you figure?

(And how are you defining "tribe"?)

Tribe as defined by being "a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader:"

I'd consider solidarity, enforcement and succession as being tribal benefits. A tribe knows its members, can identify behaviors threating the tribe and it can elect ongoing leadership from within its own ranks perpetuating the tribe's survival. Achieving an ethical code can be an enduring contribution by a tribe.

 

[Segev Moran]

Inspired by this thread.

I get the impression that people use the term "freedom from religion" in very different ways.

Personally, I take it to mean something like "freedom from religious impositions that would interfere with my own rights and freedoms."

However, I see other people who seem to take it to mean "a ban on all public religious expression."

Since people seem to be talking past each other on this, I figured a thread about it was in order.

How do you interpret the term?

I agree with your definition.
But it must be followed by "freedom of non-religion".
These two, should most definitely be followed by UNLESS YOU HARM OTHER PEOPLE TO EPRESS YOUR FREEDOM.

 

[savagewind]

Inspired by this thread.

I get the impression that people use the term "freedom from religion" in very different ways.

Personally, I take it to mean something like "freedom from religious impositions that would interfere with my own rights and freedoms."

However, I see other people who seem to take it to mean "a ban on all public religious expression."

Since people seem to be talking past each other on this, I figured a thread about it was in order.

How do you interpret the term?

Let not any religious persuasion govern your soul.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Sorry to butt in, but do children get a choice, as to what they are fed?

They get a choice whether to eat what they are offered.

 

[Mock Turtle]

They get a choice whether to eat what they are offered.

Fed, as in information, of course. And not with regards religious education, when their minds and experiences are not up to questioning anything, together with the authority with which it is usually delivered. You really think children, especially of the age at which many are taught such, are capable of questioning any religious things they are taught?

 

[RestlessSoul]

Fed, as in information, of course. And not with regards religious education, when their minds and experiences are not up to questioning anything, together with the authority with which it is usually delivered. You really think children, especially of the age at which many are taught such, are capable of questioning any religious things they are taught?

Well no loving parent would willingly feed poison to their child. And most parents are loving.

In any case, if the meal is indigestible, it’ll generally be brought up later on.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Well no loving parent would willingly feed poison to their child. And most parents are loving.

In any case, if the meal is indigestible, it’ll generally be brought up later on.

Unfortunately by then many will be indoctrinated into such beliefs though - and so often will not change out of said beliefs. How is that ensuring any freedoms from indoctrination - that we might want to see - when we generally make an exception purely for religious beliefs? The same argument could be made after all with regards political, moral, or any other doctrine we might fancy. The exception being, that we might believe the religious stuff and see it as beneficial for our children, but where it tends to separate them from others, and might not be so. Why not just wait until they are older so as to allow them to make their own decisions?

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Inspired by this thread.

I get the impression that people use the term "freedom from religion" in very different ways.

Personally, I take it to mean something like "freedom from religious impositions that would interfere with my own rights and freedoms."

However, I see other people who seem to take it to mean "a ban on all public religious expression."

Since people seem to be talking past each other on this, I figured a thread about it was in order.

How do you interpret the term?

Dear 9-10ths_Penguin

Where there is religious freedom, freedom from religion would have to mean things like:

• A right to send your children to schools that may well teach history of religion and customs, but do not practice a particular religion and do not take your kids to church or make them sing hymns or require them to partake in Easter/Christmas pageants, etc.
  
• A right not to personally be forced to partake in any of the above.
• A right to work on Sundays, religious sabbaths and/or other religious holidays.
• A right not to wear religious clothing.
• A right not to partake in fasting or follow religious diets.
• Etc

But, where there is religious freedom, freedom from religion would also have to include a duty to respects those who by free will do choose to partake in that which oneself does not.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[RestlessSoul]

Unfortunately by then many will be indoctrinated into such beliefs though - and so often will not change out of said beliefs. How is that ensuring any freedoms from indoctrination - that we might want to see - when we generally make an exception purely for religious beliefs? The same argument could be made after all with regards political, moral, or any other doctrine we might fancy. The exception being, that we might believe the religious stuff and see it as beneficial for our children, but where it tends to separate them from others, and might not be so. Why not just wait until they are older so as to allow them to make their own decisions?

Unfortunately by then many will be indoctrinated into such beliefs though - and so often will not change out of said beliefs. How is that ensuring any freedoms from indoctrination - that we might want to see - when we generally make an exception purely for religious beliefs? The same argument could be made after all with regards political, moral, or any other doctrine we might fancy. The exception being, that we might believe the religious stuff and see it as beneficial for our children, but where it tends to separate them from others, and might not be so. Why not just wait until they are older so as to allow them to make their own decisions?

Depends how you define indoctrination really. All parents pass on their values to their children, either consciously or unconsciously.

Values expressed in most religious communities generally include love, forgiveness, compassion etc. The good stuff, generally, though perhaps not exclusively. Still, you’re unlikely to hear negative values such as greed, racism, dishonesty, and hate preached from the lectern

 

[Mock Turtle]

Depends how you define indoctrination really. All parents pass on their values to their children, either consciously or unconsciously.

Values expressed in most religious communities generally include love, forgiveness, compassion etc. The good stuff, generally, though perhaps not exclusively. Still, you’re unlikely to hear negative values such as greed, racism, dishonesty, and hate preached from the lectern

No you tend to get all the negative bits when you dig down into the texts - although usually interpreted as wanted.

Still, surprised you are so keen for kids not to have freedoms though, from such, given that you might not like it if born in some other country and perhaps having to undergo what they prescribe (and proscribe) for you.

 

[RestlessSoul]

No you tend to get all the negative bits when you dig down into the texts - although usually interpreted as wanted.

Still, surprised you are so keen for kids not to have freedoms though, from such, given that you might not like it if born in some other country and perhaps having to undergo what they prescribe (and proscribe) for you.

I’m not that keen on advocating for how other peoples raise their kids, beyond legal protection against abuse etc. My own son went to mass every Sunday until he and my wife go bored of it. I really don’t think it did him any harm, and if they brainwashed him it clearly hasn’t worked.