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What Does At the Right Hand of God Mean?

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by iris89, Aug 31, 2005.

  1. jeffrosmn

    jeffrosmn New Member

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    Iris, I'm sorry but I must concur with Michael about you referring to your own articles. Even though they are research, they are YOUR research which is obviously going to be biased to YOUR opinions. It is much more convicing to reference articles which are written by others who share your own opinions. And though I understand your desire to be ecinomical with your time, you are in the same moment showing great disregard for the value of OUR time. Most of us posting here are doing so because we are looking for intelligent debate, a place to bounce our ideas off each other, and ultimately become stronger in our own beliefs either by being forced to defend what we already believe or by being convinced differently by the beliefs of others. By directing me to another forum to read what you could write here in this forum, is actually a little insulting. I am frankly not interested in what you wrote THEN, but what you might say NOW. If you have articles from other authors to direct me to, feel free to let me know, and I will gladly read what they said. But please, show me some respect by answering/debating me directly.
     
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  2. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi jeffrosmn

    FIRST, I always give the sources/references in all articles I write.



    SECOND, I only refer or give links to more information to assist all in knowing more if they desire.



    THIRD, I am a researcher and concerned with facts; I am not a debater and find the use of eloquent language to put forth ideas with the sole purpose of winning over someone else, but with no regard to truth and fact very repugnant and will have nothing to do with it. You will note I do NOT post on the debate form as I view debates in the light of 2 Corinthians 4:4, “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” (Authorized King James Bible; AV).



    FOURTH, I do not give opinions, but well researched facts. If you will note, all that I say I either back up with the Bible and/or history from reliable sources such as renown history books, encyclopedias, etc.



    FIFTH, Directing you elsewhere is the correct thing to do as you are limited in space on this form and if you really want to learn, then you go where the information is just as I do when I am doing research. I lovingly give you’re the research products to assist you.



    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Actually, I formulated my beliefs long before I read your post, Iris. I agree that the Bible is silent on this subject. However, as you know, I do not believe the Bible to be the sole record of God's communication with His children.
     
  4. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Katzpur

    FIRST, It is the only book that the Creator (YHWH) ever inspired faithful men to write and put his thoughts into the words of men, and no other, i.e., the Quran, the Book of Mormon, etc.

    SECOND, He has communicated with humans in different ways such as having an angel speak to Moses out of a burning bush, and by answering our prayers when they are in harmony with his purpose. But as mentioned previously, the Bible is unique in that it is the only book who has God (YHWH) as its author.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  5. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'm afraid you are going to have a difficult time proving this, Iris.
     
  6. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi KatzpurActually, I have no need of proving this as it is already common knowledge. But here is a little something on the value of the Bible to civilization.

    Civilization and the Bible

    1) Our entire civilization as we know it is actually built on the ability to store information in one form or another and to pass it on to others for their use. This storage can take many different forms such as books, memory cores and disks, scrolls, clay tablets, writings on stones and artifacts, etc. Storage of the repository of human knowledge and better reasoning ability are the things that set humankind apart from all other species that inhabits this planet. We know what happened in the past and can learn from the past because of our store of knowledge. Without this ability to store knowledge we would not know anything about the Roman Empire, the various ancient dynasties of the Chinese or the scientific findings of the past that we have built on and developed on in a synergistic way to continually advance. This sets us apart from all the other concurrent inhabiting species of this planet; take the common cat, this animal has coexisted with mankind during are entire existence, but it lacks the ability to pass on anything more than the most rudimentary information to the next generation and it has NOT advanced; we see no great cat cities or developments by this species and we never will.

    2) Our advancement was made possible by this ability to build on our collective knowledge in a continuing progressive upward path. We name things and this name is accepted as valid my others and our knowledge is added to. Take for example the color we call red, why is it red? It is red only because we collectively decide to use this term for it and to reference it to artifacts such as color chips, vases, etc. that are that color. Could we prove anything is red apart from our collective knowledge of what is red and our artifacts? Definitely not since it is only red due to our collective knowledge and our artifacts. Without our collective knowledge and our artifacts we would be just like the lesser animals having only a here and now existence. Of course there are those among us that differ with our collective knowledge and question the obvious of what we know or have learned as a society. The Flat Earth Society (London and California) maintain that the earth is flat and not round and there are still some primitive people that believe the earth is not only flat but carried by a great turtle through the cosmos and also those who maintain man has never gone to the moon. However, are their beliefs reasonable in the light of knowledge accumulated by society and the artifacts now possessed by society, the answer is a resounding NO.

    3) Also, are advancement is built on our ability to classify our knowledge. Many things are as we classify them. These classifications are not intrinsically right or wrong, but a method of ordering our collective knowledge into a coherent form for better understanding. In other words it is humanities attempt to take a group of disconnected information and put it into some order so we can better understand it. Of course one can disagree with classifications used and maintain that standard classifications are inadequate in one way or another, but he/she does thins strictly on the basis of the collective body of human knowledge. For example, take the classifications of several forms of deviant sex, pedophile, homosexual, and heterosexual deviant sex practitioner. Our collective knowledge is that a heterosexual relates to one who has sexual desires toward a member of the opposite gender; a homosexual relates to one who has sexual desires toward a member of his own gender; Pedophilia relates to a sexual perversion in which children, either sex, are the preferred sexual object. Now one could maintain that pedophilias are neither homosexual or heterosexual deviant sex practitioners as they are driven by different behavior motivations, i.e., power and control in addition to sex, than deviant sex practitioners who prefer adults. While their behavior motivations are different, they, depending on the gender of the victim and the perpetrator would be either heterosexual pedophiles or homosexual pedophiles; note, as previously mentioned this classification is apart from the differences in underlying motivation due to how we have collectively set up the classification in our collective body of knowledge.

    4) Since God created us and everything else in the universe and new our makeup since he had made us, he caused men under his direction or inspiration to write a collective body of information to tell us of his requirements, laws and principles; of the history of his people with whom he had concluded a covenant with; to tell us salient items to occur in the future, prophecy; and to inspire us. For example, the history given in the Bible was intended to show how when his people kept his laws and principles all went well with them and when they disobeyed how he brought punishment on them. This history also showed how punishment was executed on wicked nations before our modern era. All this was for the purpose of adding to our collective knowledge so we could learn from it and act in an intelligent manner on it if we were so disposed. Whereas, prophecy, the foretelling of history in advance, had basically a two fold purpose of first advising us of what would happen in the future and in most cases why and the second was so we would indeed know that his addition to our collective knowledge was indeed from him and the writers of it were indeed inspired. In fact, one mathematician once took the hundred of scriptures in the old testament concerning Jesus, prophecy related to him, and calculated that the possibility of them all being fulfilled by coincidence was so great as to be mathematically impossible.

    In addition to prophecy to show the Bible is inspired and from God is the many recorded eyewitness accounts recorded in the Bible and elsewhere that relate to the life and times of Jesus. For example, the accounts written by Josephus, a first century Jewish historian employed by the Romans, clearly acknowledge Jesus (see “The Jewish Antiguities” by Josephus) and many of his activities/accomplishments as do other contemporary historians such as Tacitus, a Roman historian in “The complete works of Tacitus, “ and numerous others. “The New Encyclopedia Britannica states: “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus.” The Jews, however, did not accept Jesus and the “Encyclopaedia Judaica says, “The Jews of the Roman period believed [the Messiah] would be raised up by God to break the yoke of the heather…” but they did admit his existance and many of the powerful works he did.

    5) Some specific examples of its inspiration were the prophecy at Jeremiah 49:17-18 17 “Also Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof. 18 As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it.” Note, Jeremiah’s recording was finished by 580 B.C. The prophecy was fulfilled when the Edomites were driven from Palesting during the 2nd century B.C. by Judam Maccabaeus, “The New Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia. There are many more examples such as this that can be found in reference books in all major libraries for any who should care to do further research in the repository of collective knowledge of our civilization.

    6) Therefore the Bible is proved as reliable by are repository of collective artifacts, many from archeological discoveries, that verify Biblical facts and details, and our collective repository of recorded knowledge external to the Bible. As previously noted this can be checked out at any major library with a little research on the part of any interested individual who wishes to do his/her homework.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  7. jeffrosmn

    jeffrosmn New Member

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    Iris, my intention was not offend, so forgive me if I have. My intention was simply to request that you answer my statements directly. It is fine if you provide links to alternate research as a supplemental resource, but this is not what you did. You actually did not respond whatsoever to my post but simply directed me to these links.
    Also, you say that you do not debate but that is actually precisely what you are doing on this website. You also say that you do not "present opinions but well researched facts." Without doubt you have done your homework, but that does not free your statements from being opinions at best. You may well notice that my statements were backed up with scripture references as well, and in fact this particualr subject is one I have researched rather extensively. However, we come to differing OPINIONS about what our research proves. By simply implying that my conclusions are wrong, you are at the same time debating my position and telling me that you have an opinion.
    To say that you do not present opinions but facts only, is almost like saying that you do not have the capacity to be wrong. And that is frightening. No matter how firmly you believe what you believe it is still an opinion.

    However, my desire is not to perpetuate this disagreement, but to continue on with the topic.

    Believe it or not, I agree with you on a lot of the things you have said. I too do not believe that "at the right hand of God" refers to spacial position, nor do I accept the Trinity doctrine as Biblically substantiated.

    It seems that you are using these "right hand of God" scriptures to say that Jesus Christ is not God. Am I understanding you correctly in this? If so, how do you answer scriptures like John 1, Hebrews 1, 1Timothy 3:16, Colossians 2:9, Philippians 2 (especially vv. 10 & 11 which are a direct quote from Isaiah 45 which clearly referred to YHWH in its original context, but referred to Jesus Christ in Paul's rendition). How about Jesus' statement that "before Abraham was I am" (I AM being the memorial name of God from which "YHWH" is derived). What of the frequent statements made by Jesus where he states that He is from above, that He pre-existed His earthly manifestation. He was clearly not flesh before He came to earth, what was He then? Was He eternal, or is He temporal? Is He divine, or only human?
     
  8. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi jeffrosmn



    FIRST, Your comment,



    Yes, I directed you to links, but those were links to research products, articles, I had written that answered your specific questions. Now why did I do that instead of responding directly? Because I believe in giving a well researched answer to a question and not my opinion as is what most do. Research articles involve a lot of research, time, and some take months to product, but they are factual and well buttressed with evidence from the Bible and/or history from renown sources such as history books, encyclopedias, dictionaries, and other very reliable sources. Due to this fact that they are accurate research products, they can NOT be produced on demand to answer questions, and are long; therefore, using links to them gives you a very reliable answer to your question that a spontaneous opinion could never provide. This to your benefit as it assist you with respect getting a factual answer to your question rather than a highly questionable one. This will be readily apparent with regard to the questions you ask in latest post on various scriptures which I shall now proceed to.



    The scriptures you question the meaning of per your comment,

     
  9. jeffrosmn

    jeffrosmn New Member

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    I will admit that your research is fascinating and honestly more extensive than mine. But that doesn't necessarily make it accurate. To answer a few of the things I read from your references:
    You use Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15-16 to "prove" that Jesus was the first and only originally created thing by God (which is interesting I admit), and that all subsequent things were created through Christ. While there is truth throughout what you are saying, your bold claim that EVERYTHING you say is absolute truth (implied in your statement that you do not present opinions but facts), is just a little overstated.
    Now I'm not a Greek scholar, (though I have studied Greek), but I must take you up on a few things. First of all, though this cannot be absolutely concluded either way, you must be willing to admit that "beginning of the Creation of God," can mean something other than "first created thing." It can simply mean "originator, founder of the creation of God." (On this point we could both agree - we both believe that Jesus was the effectual creator of all things - Col. 1:16). Also, "creation of God" could refer to the "new creation," those who were redeemed out of every nation, tribe and tongue, those whose hearts were made pure by faith in Christ, those who are "accepted in the beloved." I am not making absolute statements, just dealing with possibilities.
    Also, Colossians 1:15..."Firstborn of every creature." If you follow the context of almost all of Colossians chapter 1, the emphasis is on Christ's preeminence over all of creation (as Paul concludes in Colossians 1:18, for in verse 20 he leaves the doctrine of Christ to begin speaking of the doctrine of redemption). Again, from the Greek it is impossible to ultimately conclude that this verse is saying that Jesus is the "first created thing." It could very easily, and actually most likely, refer to the fact that among creation, Jesus is the best, the first in rank, the greatest, the ruler, the heir. Protossimply means "first" in all of it's possible applications, and tikto means a thing brought forth, born.You stated in one of your articles that:

    You also have decided to neglect (or perhaps deny) the ambiguity of these texts in Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15. You interpret these texts by what you already believe about this subject, even though there are other, equally as legitimate ways to translate this particular text. I do not deny that the texts you cited may be interpreted as you have interpreted them, but I am simply saying that the conclusions you come to using these verses is based on a "best-guess" translation, as good as it may be.
     
  10. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi jeffrosmn



    FIRST, The two scriptures you mention, Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 I had carefully checked out by two of the greatest living Koine Greek experts; to wit, Dr. Rolf Furuli, Koine Greek and Bible scholar expert – presently with the University of Oslo in Norway, and Dr. Jason Beduhn Koine Greek and Bible scholar expert – presently with the University of Northern Arizona, and presently Chair Department of Humanities, Arts, and Religion – you can view his credentials at http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~jdb8/jason-cv1.htm. I did this to insure I had the facts and was NOT GUESSING and/or EXPRESSING AN OPINION. Since then I have checked this out with renown translator of ancient languages Doug Douglas, Luxemburg, and several other renown experts.



    SECOND, I strive for extreme accuracy and spend a lot of time checking many of my facts. Often, when in doubt, I first put out my research products, articles, for peer review. In fact, the site of mine is actually where several renown experts actually come in and do a peer review of my writing and send me the results by email. I just got one from Doug recommending two changes and giving me about six pages of facts for me to think about adding to one of my research products, articles.



    THIRD, With respect to your comment,



    You need to take a look at 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 to get a better comprehension. Here is my explanation of this.



    1 Corinthians 15:22-28,"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. [[shows the order of resurrection of those judged worthy]]24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.[[when Christ completes his work at the end of the 1,000 years and all is well he turns all over to his Father, Almighty God (YHWH), i.e., he is his Father's (YHWH's) master worker as revealed in Proverbs]] 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.[[shows Christ will reign once more until all is well on earth]] 27 "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet."[[God (YHWH) has given him all authority except over himself as shown later in the verse, clearly showing that he is the subordinate one and his Father (YHWH) is the superior as he is the one giving him the authority]] But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him,[[that is all things which his Father (YHWH) has put under his authority have been brought in line with it]] then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him,[[showing when Christ, the obedient beloved only begotten son, the first of creation who was created as an image of his Father (YHWH) per Colossians 1:15, "He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;" (RSV) has completed his work, he delivers his completed work to his Father (YHWH) and submits to his authority]] that God may be everything to every one."[[gives the reason for all the foregoing]] (Revised Standard Version; RSV).


    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    You haven't changed a bit, have you, Iris? For your information, there is a difference between "a commonly accepted belief" and "common knowledge." There was a time when it was "common knowledge" that the earth was flat. If you want me to even consider your "facts," you actually do need to prove this to me. If it's "common knowledge," you should be able to do so with a minimal amount of effort. Saying it's "common knowledge" is a cop-out, and a transparent one at that.
    Excuse me, but I fail to see how a treatise on Civilization and the Bible has anything at all to do with "What does at the right hand of God mean?" Please understand if I don't take the time to read this. Perhaps someone else will be interested.
     
  12. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Katzpur

    You are entering this discussion a little late. I suggest you go back and read my first post and the others as they should answer your question. My last post was a little off topic and answering something quite different.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
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