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What do you think of the virgin birth of Jesus ?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by FearGod, May 8, 2015.

?
  1. I don't believe it, it is irrational

    69.6%
  2. I believe that it happened and can be explained by science

    4.3%
  3. I believe that it happened by a supernatural way and it can't be explained by science

    26.1%
  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    I voted real, however what on earth does ''supernatural'' mean?
     
  2. jonathan180iq

    jonathan180iq Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of whether or not the mythologies line up directly, the point is still accurate that each of the supposedly miraculous births took place because a male deity involved himself somehow in the conception of an offspring with a mortal female. The Christians claiming virginity at the conception of Jesus is no different than the Greeks claiming golden showers upon Danae at the conception of Perseus, or Poseidon causing Pasiphae to fall in love with Mino's white bull and give birth to the Minotaur... It's all just magic and nonsense.
     
  3. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Yes. You have to in order to be Catholic.
     
  4. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    To lazy people that don't even bother to examine the subject, sure.
     
  5. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Interesting that the difference between the RCC and the Anglicans is that the RCC says, "Blessed, ever-virgin Mary," while the Anglicans say, "Ever-blessed, virgin Mary."
     
  6. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Aupmanyav said:
    Well, for example, myself. My mother was a virgin when she married my father. Am I not born of a woman who was a virgin?

    In ancient times in many cultures people used to have many wives; some of them they married for the first times i.e., they were virgins while other's husband had died and they married such ladies, if they had children from such wives, these could not have been called from the virgins.

    Regards
     
  7. jonathan180iq

    jonathan180iq Well-Known Member

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    So those people that examine the subject over the course of decades and still come away thinking it's little more than mythological hokum are lazy, just because they don't have the same emotional connection it as you?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you would agree that all other mythological birth stories are just mystical nonsense, right? Like, you would agree that Perseus wasn't conceived through Zeus raining down onto a woman locked away in a tower, right? Does your disbelief in Zues' golden shower make you lazy, or does it imply that you haven't bothered to examine the subject? I think not. You disbelieve it because you have no external pressure to maintain that it's true. I would argue that if you believed in the golden shower of Perseus, due to external societal and cultural pressures, that you would be lazy for not examining how ridiculous the claim is in light of all that you know about reproduction and conception... Surely you see the parallels.
     
  8. ThePainefulTruth

    ThePainefulTruth Romantic-Cynic

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    There are plenty of virgin births in pagan mythology. Paul melded the beliefs of the early followers of Jesus with Mithraism, where Mithras was the divine Sun God, born of a virgin on Dec 25th BTW, and who died a salvific death with worshipers consuming his symbolic flesh and blood at a banquet--among other like mythology. The Romans attributed their Mithraic Mysteries (the Mystery Religion known as Mithraism) to Persian or Zoroastrian sources relating to Mithra. The Wise Men, aka the Magi (from which we get the word magician), were Persian priests of Zoroaster from which Mithraism sprang.
     
  9. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    Almah implies youth. It neither implies virginity nor "unmarried". Nor is the child spoken of in the verse implied to be the Messiah.
     
  10. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    It's typically used to described a young unmarried adolescent female.
    Almah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  11. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Yes.

    No. All myths have power and I personally love mythology in general. They are the heart and soul of a people. A people without myths is dead.
     
  12. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    "Almah (עלמה, plural: alamot עלמות) is a Hebrew word meaning a young woman of childbearing age who has not yet had a child, and who may be an unmarried virgin or a married young woman"
     
  13. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Yes, and?
     
  14. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of how many unmarried virgins are referred to as almah, the word almah does not imply either viriginity or not being married. The word almah only identifies a young woman. You cannot build a case for the virgin birth on the word almah.
     
  15. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    It obviously does, at least some of the time, if it's translated to mean that.

    As I said, blame the Jews who translated the Septuagint, since they're the ones who translated "almah" as "parthenos".
     
  16. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    The Septuagint is the 5 books of Moses translated into Greek by Jews. Isaiah was translated much later, and you can't be certain by who. You don't know who translated almah as parthenos. So stop blaming the Jews.

    BTW, one thing the Jews who translated the Septuagint did do is refer to Dinah as a "parthenos", even though she was not a virgin. So, either parthenos is also a word not designed to refer exclusively to virgins, or perhaps those Jews just couldn't come up with the right word for the moment. Seems a rather shaky thing to base your belief on.
     
  17. jonathan180iq

    jonathan180iq Well-Known Member

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    But actually physically believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, don't you?

    Yet you don't actually and physically believe that Perseus was conceived from golden rain, or do you?
    Do you believe that Perseus' birth was a legitimate historical even, as portrayed?
     
  18. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Excuse me, but what are you talking about?
    Septuagint - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Are you implying that it was early Christians that translated Isaiah in that fashion?

    It's part of the cultural view of virginity of the time that a woman was still considered a virgin after rape.

    I'm not concerned about the "shakiness" of my beliefs since here we are, two millenia later. We could argue around and around about this topic, but it won't really matter.
     
  19. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Yes, because I'm a Christian.

    No, because I don't believe in nor practice Hellenismos. But I recognize the deep value and power in those stories to those who did/do believe in them. It's the same with other cultures I admire such as the Germanic, the Egyptian and the Aztec. Even cultures I don't feel necessarily drawn towards.
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    The LXX is more than just the Pentateuch. It contains all the books included in the RCC OT.
     
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