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What do you think of Matthew 27:46-50?

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
And where's the contradiction? Yes, man became a living soul but the body did not. The body is the body, the soul is the soul and the spirit is the spirit. And all three form man.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the tip but I'm already studying the old scripts.
I see it as a compliment if you call me a follower of a sect, also Paul and the apostles were called such.

Acts 24:14
But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,
Read it from the authority on the creation of man.

The man is what was formed in God's image. The man was not living until he was given the breath of life (spirit). That is what is then called a living soul. Just as animals are called living souls.. And when the spirit of the breath of life leaves the living soul then he is a dead soul. It's right there, all you have to do is read it.

Until you accept the truth as told by Moses, it would be a waste of my time to explain your handful of verses that you have been superficially reading.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Jesus was not dead, only his body was dead but his soul was alive. He was in the realm of the dead (Sheol) for three days. Jesus came out of there, thats why it is said that he was raised from the dead. Someone who loses his body and then comes to the realm of the dead is described as "dead".

The souls who are in the realm of the dead have a consciousness, for example there is a passage in the bible where they have a conversation with God. (Revelation 6:9-10)
The Immortal Soul of Man has logically existed since the creation of man.

I do not deny that Jesus was raised from the dead. Jesus was in the realm of the dead(sheol) (1 Samuel 2:6)(Numbers 16:30), the realm of the dead consists of two sides: hell and paradise (Luke 16:19-31) and Jesus was in paradise(Luke 23:43). Therefore it is said that Jesus was raised from the dead. Which, of course, is right.



Hi @calm

While I do not understand your usage of the word "soul", I think that your use of the early Judeo-Christian interpretation of death as a separation of Body and spirit is more rational and logical than the later interpretations of the more modern Christian movements that abandoned that model.

Also, you seem to be familiar with the early Christian model of the decensus of Christ into Hades to teach free the spirits there. While the bible references it, there is not much description of it in the biblical literature. Are you also referencing the early Christian literature such as the epigraphic literature (barnabas, etc) when you refer to the decensus of Christ?

Clear
φισεδρω
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The Canaanites did worship the Divine Council as a Pantheon, which is Polytheism... With EL having a form, yet still being the creator rather than the Source of reality.

My understanding of the Bible is that EL is without form, and the Divine Council (elohim) are beings manifest by it....

With Yahavah Elohim being the first born, and creator of all, just like in Hinduism.

Brahma means to become (Creator), like Yah-havah means Lord to become (Lord of Creation).

Brahman is the Source, like El Elyon & Ala Ilah mean the God Most High; Ahura Mazda in Zoroastrianism also has the same structural theology: one Source, and then archangels who interacted with reality.

In my opinion. :innocent:

The Israelites were Canaanites. See the Ugaritic Tablets found at Ras Shamra. .. Syria.. AKA North Coast Canaanites.
 

calm

Active Member
Hi @calm

While I do not understand your usage of the word "soul", I think that your use of the early Judeo-Christian interpretation of death as a separation of Body and spirit is more rational and logical than the later interpretations of the more modern Christian movements that abandoned that model.

Also, you seem to be familiar with the early Christian model of the decensus of Christ into Hades to teach free the spirits there. While the bible references it, there is not much description of it in the biblical literature. Are you also referencing the early Christian literature such as the epigraphic literature (barnabas, etc) when you refer to the decensus of Christ?

Clear
φισεδρω
I'm just referring to the Bible.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
What I understand to have happened is due to the Babylonians having polytheism, where it was a continuation of the Canaanite deities, the Jews went opposite to them.

Thus whereas the Bible teaches a Divine Council of Elohim (Psalms 82:1, Deuteronomy 32:7-9, etc), and one God Most High (El Elyon); as does the Quran (38:69, 37:8).

Moses prophesied that the Elohim of other nations, would become a Snare to them (Deuteronomy 7:16); they thought it was from agreeing, and it is from going opposite to the point of confusing the theology...

There is one Source/EL, then 24 Elders/Elohim surrounding the Source, which interact with reality.

Polytheism was taking the 24 Elders, and making them into gods; when they're only divine aspects of the One Source.

In my opinion. :innocent:

I never knew how many were in the divine council. How did you find 24?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The man was not living until he was given the breath of life (spirit). That is what is then called a living soul. Just as animals are called living souls. And when the spirit of the breath of life leaves the living soul then he is a dead soul. It's right there, all you have to do is read it.
Yeah, it is all there and you just have to read it. It is God's word because it says so. We know that breath is important for the new-born as well as the dying, but what is the 'spirit of breath'?

circular.jpeg
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I do not have problems. I have questions for people if they have any answer. 'Spirit of Breath' is 'word maze', 'shabda jaala', 'a net of words' or simply 'word salad'.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
What do you think of Matthew 27:46-50?

Maybe he wanted to call out many more verses but passed out? In any event I don't think that Jesus died, but he may well have wanted to call out more verses........ see here....

Psalm 22:1.
{22:1} My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?
{22:2} O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
{22:3} But thou [art] holy, [O thou] that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
{22:4} Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
{22:5} They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
{22:6} But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
{22:7} All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head [saying,
]{22:8} He trusted on the LORD [that] he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

{22:9} But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother’s breasts.
{22:10} I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother’s belly.
{22:11} Be not far from me; for trouble [is] near; for [there is] none to help.
{22:12} Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round.
{22:13} They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion.
{22:14} I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
{22:15} My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
{22:16} For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
{22:17} I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.
{22:18} They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

{22:19} But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I do not have problems. I have questions for people if they have any answer. 'Spirit of Breath' is 'word maze', 'shabda jaala', 'a net of words' or simply 'word salad'.
Religious Rhetoric?

I would like to know who bothered to write down what they saw and heard at that time. We've got this crowd of jeering haters enjoying the tortured strugglings of three convicts, and Magdalene and Salome are watching 'from afar', and somebody takes note of these things, thinks to write them down, and then sets out to somehow deliver them to a follower of Jesus who had legged it the night before during the arrest. Or maybe he gave it to Magdalene, but how did this watching stranger know who she was?

Would you have gambled for the ripped, bloodied and mashed clothes of a convicted criminal? I can't see the guards wanting any filthy clothing......... Jesus was probably naked the whole way to his crucifixion. Romans wanted the utmost shame and denigration upon convicts.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
I am the Spirit of Breath. Any problem?
prANanAtha :)
If God gathered unto Himself all His spirit and breath all flesh would perish together and man would again return to dust.
...all the while my breath is in me and the spirit of God in my nostrils....
 

ameyAtmA

~ ~
Premium Member
If God gathered unto Himself all His spirit and breath all flesh would perish together and man would again return to dust.
...all the while my breath is in me and the spirit of God in my nostrils....
Of Course. Goes without saying. Nothing can live or be sentient without the Divine power and will. Even a blade of grass wouldn't be able to move.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I never knew how many were in the divine council. How did you find 24?
Revelation 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones. On the thrones were twenty-four elders sitting, dressed in white garments, with crowns of gold on their heads.

There are also 24 incarnations of Vishnu in Hinduism, with the 25th being 'the Rider on the White Horse' (Kalki); who will defeat the 'sinful behaviour (Adharmic) with 'Holy Fire' (Samvartaka), and comes from 'a Place of Peace' (Shambhala/New Jerusalem).

There are also 24 Tirthankara (Way Makers) around the Source of reality in Jainism.

Plus witnessed it it in my NDE at 23.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Revelation 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones. On the thrones were twenty-four elders sitting, dressed in white garments, with crowns of gold on their heads.

There are also 24 incarnations of Vishnu in Hinduism, with the 25th being 'the Rider on the White Horse' (Kalki); who will defeat the 'sinful behaviour (Adharmic) with 'Holy Fire' (Samvartaka), and comes from 'a Place of Peace' (Shambhala/New Jerusalem).

There are also 24 Tirthankara (Way Makers) around the Source of reality in Jainism.

Plus witnessed it it in my NDE at 23.

In my opinion. :innocent:

Brilliant, thanks!
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What do you think of Matthew 27:46-50?

Hi @Frank Goad;

While it could be true that Jesus felt the Father removed his spirit and, for some reason, allowed Jesus to go through this part of the atonement without the Fathers supporting presence, I tend to think that Jesus was quoting Psalms 22 as others have mentioned.

As for verse 50 when “Jesus cried with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit”, I agree with those who describe Jesus’ body dying and the animating and intelligent spirit within that body being released or separating from the body that died. Thus, the body died while his spirit lived.

I think the decensus literature that was so popular in early Judeo-Christianity yields a wonderful description of the fulfillment of Jesus’ promise to the thief Dymas that he would be with Jesus in paradise and of Jesus decension to those spirits in that spirit world to release them from that place to take part in his resurrection as described in verse 52 of Matt 27 : “And the tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints that had slept were raised and coming out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."

In any case and whatever model you arrive at, I hope your spiritual journey is good Frank

Clear
φυνεφιω
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I am going to look into this. What do you think are the repercussions of Jesus quoting from the book of Enoch? Would it mean that Christians should include that book in the canon?
The Ethiopian Orthodox do, actually. They're in communion with the Oriental Orthodox churches--Armenian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox and Syro-Malabar Orthodox.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
There are several reasons why the book of Enoch is not in the Bible. One reason is that you can conclude from the book that all people were black before the Flood.
How?
Lamech (and his family) was very surprised by the look of his son(noah) at birth, because he had white skin. He had never seen a white human, since they did not exist. But Noah was not an ordinary white man, he was an albino.
Because lamech was so surprised by his son's look, and he has never seen a white huma before, we can conclude that all humans were black before the Flood and that all Noah's children were black as well. So if all Noah's children were black, how can it be that the Messiah is white? Jesus must have a black skin. So it could be racism, maybe the church fathers couldn't bear that the Messiah is black and therefore didn't keep the book of Enoch in the Bible.
But that is not all. One now asks oneself the justified question where the white people come from.
The book Enoch tells us not only that the people before the Flood were black but also that the children of the angels(nephilim) and the angels themselves were white. Lamech said when he saw Noah for the first time: His looks like one of the angels of God - so the Nephilim and also the angels are white. The white people are the descendants of the Nephilim.

Enoch 106
1 And after some days my son Methuselah took a wife for his son Lamech, and she became 2 pregnant by him and bore a son. And his body was white as snow and red as the blooming of a rose, and the hair of his head and his long locks were white as wool, and his eyes beautiful.(albino) And when he opened his eyes, he lighted up the whole house like the sun, and the whole house 3 was very bright. And thereupon he arose in the hands of the midwife, opened his mouth, and conversed with the Lord of righteousness. 4 And his father Lamech was afraid of him and 5 fled, and came to his father Methuselah. And he said unto him: ' I have begotten a strange son, diverse from and unlike man, and resembling the sons of the God of heaven; and his nature is different and he is not like us, and his eyes are as the rays of the sun, and his 6 countenance is glorious. And it seems to me that he is not sprung from me but from the angels, and I fear that in his days a wonder may be 7 wrought on the earth. And now, my father, I am here to petition thee and implore thee that thou mayest go to Enoch, our father, and learn from him the truth, for his dwelling-place is 8 amongst the angels.' And when Methuselah heard the words of his son, he came to me to the ends of the earth; for he had heard that 1 was there, and he cried aloud, and I heard his voice and I came to him. And 1 said unto him: ' Behold, here am I, my son, wherefore hast 9 thou come to me ? ' And he answered and said: ' Because of a great cause of anxiety have I come to thee, and because of a disturbing vision 10 have I approached. And now, my father, hear me: unto Lamech my son there hath been born a son, the like of whom there is none, and his nature is not like man's nature, and the colour of his body is whiter than snow and redder than the bloom of a rose, and the hair of his head is whiter than white wool, and his eyes are like the rays of the sun, and he opened his eyes and 11 thereupon lighted up the whole house. And he arose in the hands of the midwife, and opened 12 his mouth and blessed the Lord of heaven. And his father Lamech became afraid and fled to me, and did not believe that he was sprung from him, but that he was in the likeness of the angels of heaven; and behold I have come to thee that thou mayest make known to me the truth.
That's a stretch, to say the least. Even white people would take notice if somebody's skin was exceedingly pale.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Only Jesus body died, but his soul was in paradise for 3 days.
When Jesus said to the criminal on the cross: "Today you will be with me in Paradise.- Luke 23:43 then he meant that literally.
And Paradise is not heaven.
Christ was dead in the tomb, descending into Hades to free the dead from the bonds of death, and opening the doors of Paradise for the Thief.

Also, let's not be Nestorian or Gnostic about this. When Jesus died on the Cross, He Himself died in the flesh. Not just His "meat sack". Let's not try dividing up the human person or the Theanthropos into parts.
 
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