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Featured What do you think of Matthew 27:46-50?

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Frank Goad, Jul 27, 2019.

  1. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Exactly what I am thinking. So why is it left out?
     
  2. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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  3. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    It seems that references to God, outside religious interpretation by either Christians or Jews, call 'the God', the Main God, 'Lord', also. By estimation thusly of the nature of God, even though a panentheistic nature is always there, the 'Lord' aspect clearly is referring to the 'main God', ie 'Lord God', 'Lord my God', so forth. So, that differentiation of Lord, from God, just doesn't seem to be there, in the texts.
     
  4. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Superstitions, God, Soul. That is what one would expect from a person 2,000 who may have lived years ago.
     
    #24 Aupmanyav, Jul 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  5. calm

    calm Active Member

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    There are several reasons why the book of Enoch is not in the Bible. One reason is that you can conclude from the book that all people were black before the Flood.
    How?
    Lamech (and his family) was very surprised by the look of his son(noah) at birth, because he had white skin. He had never seen a white human, since they did not exist. But Noah was not an ordinary white man, he was an albino.
    Because lamech was so surprised by his son's look, and he has never seen a white huma before, we can conclude that all humans were black before the Flood and that all Noah's children were black as well. So if all Noah's children were black, how can it be that the Messiah is white? Jesus must have a black skin. So it could be racism, maybe the church fathers couldn't bear that the Messiah is black and therefore didn't keep the book of Enoch in the Bible.
    But that is not all. One now asks oneself the justified question where the white people come from.
    The book Enoch tells us not only that the people before the Flood were black but also that the children of the angels(nephilim) and the angels themselves were white. Lamech said when he saw Noah for the first time: His looks like one of the angels of God - so the Nephilim and also the angels are white. The white people are the descendants of the Nephilim.

    Enoch 106
    1 And after some days my son Methuselah took a wife for his son Lamech, and she became 2 pregnant by him and bore a son. And his body was white as snow and red as the blooming of a rose, and the hair of his head and his long locks were white as wool, and his eyes beautiful.(albino) And when he opened his eyes, he lighted up the whole house like the sun, and the whole house 3 was very bright. And thereupon he arose in the hands of the midwife, opened his mouth, and conversed with the Lord of righteousness. 4 And his father Lamech was afraid of him and 5 fled, and came to his father Methuselah. And he said unto him: ' I have begotten a strange son, diverse from and unlike man, and resembling the sons of the God of heaven; and his nature is different and he is not like us, and his eyes are as the rays of the sun, and his 6 countenance is glorious. And it seems to me that he is not sprung from me but from the angels, and I fear that in his days a wonder may be 7 wrought on the earth. And now, my father, I am here to petition thee and implore thee that thou mayest go to Enoch, our father, and learn from him the truth, for his dwelling-place is 8 amongst the angels.' And when Methuselah heard the words of his son, he came to me to the ends of the earth; for he had heard that 1 was there, and he cried aloud, and I heard his voice and I came to him. And 1 said unto him: ' Behold, here am I, my son, wherefore hast 9 thou come to me ? ' And he answered and said: ' Because of a great cause of anxiety have I come to thee, and because of a disturbing vision 10 have I approached. And now, my father, hear me: unto Lamech my son there hath been born a son, the like of whom there is none, and his nature is not like man's nature, and the colour of his body is whiter than snow and redder than the bloom of a rose, and the hair of his head is whiter than white wool, and his eyes are like the rays of the sun, and he opened his eyes and 11 thereupon lighted up the whole house. And he arose in the hands of the midwife, and opened 12 his mouth and blessed the Lord of heaven. And his father Lamech became afraid and fled to me, and did not believe that he was sprung from him, but that he was in the likeness of the angels of heaven; and behold I have come to thee that thou mayest make known to me the truth.
     
    #25 calm, Jul 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This is dependent on the notion that "the spirit" that Jesus "yielded up" was something other than his 'breath'.

    It is a common error to assume that "spirit" and "soul" are one and the same thing in scripture.....they are different words with quite different meanings. The soul includes the body...flesh, blood brain personality, etc...and the spirit (breath of life) needs lungs to breathe. Neither can be disembodied. There is no immortal soul.

    Jesus was not God incarnate because an immortal God cannot die....mere humans cannot kill God. Jesus had to be the exact equivalent of Adam....a sinless, mortal human being....if he was 100% God, he could not be 100% human.One cannot be mortal and immortal at the same time.....they are diametrically opposed.

    When Jesus died, it had to be the exact same death as Adam's. In order to redeem mankind, Jesus' life had to cancel out the debt that Adam left for his children....which was enslavement to sin and death through his disobedience. As a "redeemer", the price paid to release a slave was the exact equivalent of what was owed. Under God's law, it was "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life". No human life was sinless, which is why Jesus had to come from outside of Adam's offspring in order to pay the redemption price.

    Again, who are the "spirits in prison" that Jesus went to? When did he go to preach to them....and what message did he give them?

    "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you— not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him."
    (1 Peter 3:18-22 NASB)

    What do we see here, and what other scripture will shed light on the correct interpretation of it?

    Since Jesus was not raised "in the flesh" but was resurrected as a "spirit" (1 Peter 3:18) here again we have that word "spirit".....so what does that mean? When was Jesus resurrected? He himself said that he would be "in the heart of the earth" for the same amount of time that Jonah was in the belly of the fish....."three days and three nights" (Matthew 12:40)

    That means that the man Jesus, was in his tomb for three days after his death, in the same state as Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 explains...."For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten......Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going." (NASB) (Sheol is the equivalent of Hades in Greek)

    Christendom's interpretation of "hades" is "hell", which puts the "spirits in prison" in "hell" and Jesus supposedly visiting them in that place. But is that what the Bible means?

    Since Jesus was "dead" (in the Jewish understanding of death, which involved no part of humans continuing to live in spirit form after death, according to Ecclesiastes) then Jesus did not go anywhere for the three days before God resurrected him. But after three days, he was resurrected in "spirit" form, with ability to come and go in both realms. He went to the spirit realm and to deliver his message of condemnation to the wicked spirits who materialized in Noah's day. These demon angels were thrown, not into a literal prison, but into "Tartarus" also erroneously translated "hell" in some Bibles.

    This word is used only once in scripture and pertains to a condition of restraint, rather than a literal location. The demons were very active in Jesus' day, so they were not in a literal prison. After the flood of Noah's day, they were restricted in their activities, since there is no mention of them ever materializing again. Their freakish offspring perished in the flood, but their fathers were forced to return to the spirit realm where God imposed the restrictions of "Tartarus", (2 Peter 2:4) depicting dense spiritual darkness, cut off from any spiritual enlightenment.

    The demons have been active among mankind all along, but in these last days, their activity was to intensify. (Revelation 12:7-12) This coincided with the establishment of Christ as the authorized King of God's Kingdom. (In Daniel 7:13-14, concerning the "time of the end", Daniel saw in advance the coronation of Jesus in the heavens, unseen to human eyes.)

    Only in the Revelation, (which was way into the future when John received it) are the devil and his hordes thrown into a literal prison, (an abyss, Revelation 20:1-3) but only after God is finished using them to test mankind for now, then he returns the earth and the human race to his original purpose under the rulership of his Kingdom.

    "Woe" is foretold for our time as these enemies of God try their best to alienate mankind from the true God by misrepresenting him to the confused masses. Those who are misled, will be in the majority according to Jesus, including "many" of those who identify as "Christian". (Matthew 7:13-14; Matthew 7:21-23)

    This "Abyssing" of satan has not happened yet, as is evidenced by the level of wickedness still ever increasing on earth in this "time of the end". Woe for the earth is what we are experiencing.

    Think about it....spirits cannot drown....but their gigantic, violent, immoral offspring did. They had no right to live.

    It was satan who brought the disastrous tests on Job, and his demons who caused much distress to people in both Noah's day and in Jesus' day. When these wicked spirits were confined to the earth, after being evicted from heaven, we should see a marked difference in world affairs aligning with what Jesus foretold concerning his "presence" (not his "coming") in Matthew 24:3-14. We believe that "the last days" of the present world system began with World War 1 and have continued to the present. This present system is in its death throes.....only one last form of government is foretold.....and it will spread "woe" in the earth the likes of which we have never seen before.......thankfully, it won't last long.

    The Bible explains itself and there is never contradiction.
     
  8. calm

    calm Active Member

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    @Israel Khan

    Here are some quotes in the Bible from the book of Enoch.

    "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
    "To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches, which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
    Jude 1:14-15
    And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
    To execute judgement upon all,
    And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh
    Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
    And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
    Enoch 1:9

    1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them,
    2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.
    3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in1 man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”
    4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
    Genesis 6:1-4
    1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children(Nephilim).
    Enoch 6:1-3

    Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
    (Mat 5:5)
    The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth.
    (Enoch 5:7

    the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son
    (John 5:22).
    the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man.
    (Enoch 69:27


    Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born.
    (Mat. 26:24)
    Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born.
    (Enoch 38:2

    between us and you(Paradise and hell) there is a great gulf fixed.
    (Luke 16:26)
    by a chasm . . . [are] their souls are separated
    (Enoch 22: 9,11

    In my Father's house are many mansions
    (John 14:2)
    In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations.
    (Enoch 45:3
     
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  9. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    "Today" is a word which means "the day of salvation". Just like Paul used it when he said "while it is called Today".
    Jesus died and was buried for three days. Dead men can't go anywhere after they're buried.
     
  10. calm

    calm Active Member

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    Jesus' body was dead but his soul was still alive. He (his soul) was in paradise for three days. Jesus himself said to the criminal on the cross: "Today you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43) - Paradise is not heaven but a place under the earth (Matthew 12:40). Paradise and hell are next to each other, but they are separated by a great gulf (Luke 16:26).
    Abraham is also in paradise (Luke 16:19-31).

    The Bible mentions and distinguishes between soul, body and spirit.
    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
    Luke 12:4-5
    I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do.
    5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
    James 2:26
    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
     
    #30 calm, Jul 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
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  11. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    You have been deceived into thinking Jesus did not die by the heathen doctrine of an immortal soul in man.
    The word soul refers to the life of the man. When Jesus laid down his life, his dead soul was put into the tomb. When God raised HIM from the dead, Jesus took his life back.
    Jesus was truly dead friend. And your acceptance of false teaching puts you out of the truth.
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I thought that before Genesis the Canaanites worshiped a pantheon like El, Baal, Yam and Asherah … and others.
     
  13. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    The RCC has incorporated the ideas of heathen philosophers like Plato and Socrates into the Scriptures. By doing so they deny that Jesus Christ died and was raised again from the dead ones.

    Let me ask you a question. When was man given an immortal soul?
     
  14. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    The sectarian churches are not studied in the scriptures. This is quite evident by their members. They are superficial readers who have accepted the superficial teaching of its leaders. What they do is cherry-pick verses which can, on the surface, seem to teach a certain idea. Then they teach it to others who are just as ignorant as themselves. That's why there are more than 30,000 christian denominations in the world.
     
  15. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The Canaanites did worship the Divine Council as a Pantheon, which is Polytheism... With EL having a form, yet still being the creator rather than the Source of reality.

    My understanding of the Bible is that EL is without form, and the Divine Council (elohim) are beings manifest by it....

    With Yahavah Elohim being the first born, and creator of all, just like in Hinduism.

    Brahma means to become (Creator), like Yah-havah means Lord to become (Lord of Creation).

    Brahman is the Source, like El Elyon & Ala Ilah mean the God Most High; Ahura Mazda in Zoroastrianism also has the same structural theology: one Source, and then archangels who interacted with reality.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  16. calm

    calm Active Member

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    The Immortal Soul of Man has logically existed since the creation of man.

    I do not deny that Jesus was raised from the dead. Jesus was in the realm of the dead(sheol) (1 Samuel 2:6)(Numbers 16:30), the realm of the dead consists of two sides: hell and paradise (Luke 16:19-31) and Jesus was in paradise(Luke 23:43). Therefore it is said that Jesus was raised from the dead. Which, of course, is right.
     
    #36 calm, Jul 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
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  17. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    If Jesus was existing in a realm of the dead then he was not dead.. It seems you don't know what dead means. It means to be not living. Get it?

    Death means to be dead and alive means to be living.
     
  18. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    According to Moses, the authority on the creation of man, man BECAME a living soul, he was NOT given a living soul.

    May i suggest you study the Hebrew Scriptures rather than the teaching of sectarian groups>
     
  19. calm

    calm Active Member

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    Jesus was not dead, only his body was dead but his soul was alive. He was in the realm of the dead (Sheol) for three days. Jesus came out of there, thats why it is said that he was raised from the dead. Someone who loses his body and then comes to the realm of the dead is described as "dead".
    The souls who are in the realm of the dead have a consciousness, for example there is a passage in the bible where they have a conversation with God. (Revelation 6:9-10)
     
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  20. calm

    calm Active Member

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    And where's the contradiction? Yes, man became a living soul but the body did not. The body is the body, the soul is the soul and the spirit is the spirit. And all three form man.
    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Thanks for the tip but I'm already studying the old scripts.
    I see it as a compliment if you call me a follower of a sect, also Paul and the apostles were called such.

    Acts 24:14
    But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,
     
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