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Featured What do you think happens when we die

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by dfnj, Feb 3, 2018.

  1. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    What you say could be true: Christendom has shed a lot of blood! But Deeje and I can guarantee you, none who are Jehovah's Witnesses will ever do that! Actually, we expect attacks also, we've received them already, and believe more attacks are yet to come, but will originate from the world's political element. Deeje can explain it to you, she's great at in depth replies! I have a hard time writing them.
     
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  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The attacks on Baha'is will come from the Trinitarians and fundamentalists.... I do not expect them from JWs, we have a lot in common... :)

    Yes, Deeje is good at the in depth replies, as am I. ;) I appreciate that.
     
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  3. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    we reincarnate.
     
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  4. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    I really don't know where your getting your ideas from. Cant be from the bible. Resurrection is bodily. When Jesus was raised from the dead it was bodily and when he went to heaven, it was bodily too. Scripture is clear on that will happen when our Lord returns. Because the first thing he will do is raise the dead and judge.

    Plus, your view on "spirit" is different from scripture. You might want to look it up in the org. language. Same with "soul".

    Paul never, ever, referred anything to a "spiritual" resurrection. He knew better.
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Jesus had no "new" teachings.....that is the point. He was a Jew and he had the very same scriptures as the Jewish leaders had....but the Pharisees built a fence around the Law, adding their own interpretation of how the law should be understood.....this is what Jesus came to correct. He did not come to start a new religion, he came to clean up the old one. There was nothing wrong with the Jewish faith based on the Hebrew scriptures....it was the Jewish leadership that caused the problems by deviating from God's word.

    Jesus was not sent to the self-righteous Pharisees, whom he castigated at every opportunity (as did John the Baptist) He was sent to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel"......and he understood why they were lost and he reclaimed them for his Father by teaching them the truth and by showing them by his own example what the Father was really like. When it was apparent that the religious leaders were only interested in their own position and comfort, he pronounced judgment upon them...

    "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’(Matthew 23:37-39)

    They did to Jesus what they had always done when confronted with an inconvenient truth. God's abandonment of the Jews was permanent because even though individual Jews could become believers in Christ.....as a nation, God cast them off as covenant breakers who will never bless the name of Jesus Christ, but will find every excuse to deny him.

    Again, you are free to believe that, but we have come to learn from scripture that the devil is a clever mimic. Whatever God reveals and sets up, satan sets up a counterfeit that will lead people in an opposite direction.
    History is not repeating with regard to your prophet at all IMO....satan has created another "Christ" to lead people away from the real one. His MO does not change, nor do his motives.

    Who told you that? Where does Paul teach differently to Jesus? He was taught by Jesus.

    That is your belief and you are welcome to it. I can't even say the guy's name.

    Islam is not the true religion....Jesus was not a Muslim, so even if Bah'ai is a breakaway from Islam....its still a breakaway from the wrong religion to start with.

    Note Strongs numbers here in 1 Peter 3:18....

    "For Christ G5547 also G2532 died G599 for sins G266 once G530 for all, G530 the just G1342 for the unjust, G94 so G2443 that He might bring G4317 us to God, G2316 having been put G2289 to death G2289 in the flesh, G4561 but made G2227 alive G2227 in the G4151 spirit."

    The word translated "made alive" (G2227) is repeated. This word is "zōopoieō"

    It is used once in 1 Corinthians 15:45...."So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving G2227 spirit."

    It is repeated twice in many scriptures....John 5:21...John 6:63...Romans 4:17....etc and it is always translated to infer "giving life" or "making alive"...so "quickened by the spirit" is archaic English that means nothing to modern day Bible readers. The whole purpose of translation is to understand what is written in your own language. It means discarding translations with old English and replacing them with modern English.

    Christendom is hopelessly lost for the same reason Judaism got hopelessly lost. When you examine what the Bible really teaches, you find that fake religion has more converts than true religion. With man's emphasis on what he wants, that is not surprising.

    Not sure what you are saying here. Jesus was resurrected as a spirit. i.e given a new spiritual body. As a spirit being, he manifested himself in the flesh as other spirit beings had done before. (Jews were forbidden by law to communicate with spirits, so they materialized as humans. Deuteronomy 18:10-12) Before he ascended to heaven Jesus spent 40 days on earth after his resurrection. He did not stay with his apostles and only "appeared" to them throughout that period
    On one occasion he appeared in a locked room and then just vanished before their eyes. This was a spirit being manifesting himself in the flesh.....but not in the body he sacrificed.
     
    #125 Deeje, Feb 7, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
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  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    What proof do you have of this man's claims? Did he perform miracles....Did he have the power to calm storms?....Cure the sick or raise the dead? How do you know that he is who he claims to be?
    I see that men have hallowed his resting place.....can you tell me where Jesus' tomb is?

    He told his disciples the reason why he had to return....to take them home to be with him. It was their anointing with holy spirit at Pentecost that gave them the inordinate desire to go to heaven. That is not to be confused with our natural desire to live in paradise. Where was the first one?

    There is no new scripture. All we need is the Bible as humankind knows it. It takes us from the creation of man and the loss of paradise....to the sacrifice of Jesus and the restoration of all things a thousand years into the future.

    Goes against science?...or what man currently knows about science (which is very little in the big scheme of things)
    We are speaking about the Creator of all things who made the things that science studies. If he can create man from the elements of the earth, then he would have no trouble recreating him from those same elements. I place no limits on the Creator...why do you?

    The Bible disagrees with you. Full bodily resurrections were performed in the first century and even before that by the prophets Elijah and Elisha.

    Jesus himself raised a widow's son, whom he resurrected off his funeral bier.....he raised Jairus' 12 year old daughter, and most famously, he raised his friend Lazarus after being in his tomb for 4 days.
    These were dead and brought back to their former life. There is no soul that departs from the body at death, so the dead have not left to go somewhere else....they simply sleep in the earth.

    Belief in an immortal soul is a Platonic Greek idea, not a biblical teaching at all.

    Souls cannot exist without a body and a body cannot exist without spirit (breath). The "soul" is not a disembodied spirit. When God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, he did not think that God would raise his son Isaac as a spirit....the promise was that he was going to father humans on earth.

    God placed man on a material earth to live here as its caretakers forever, and he supplied them with the means to do so. The mind set of those who believe the first lie told by the devil is apparently hard to eradicate. There was no natural cause of death in Eden...the only way to induce death back then, was to disobey God's command. What do you think would have happened if they hadn't disobeyed?

    That is what it says. "Sleeping in death" is what Jews believed from their scripture.

    Psalm 115:16-17..."As regards the heavens, to Jehovah the heavens belong,
    But the earth he has given to the sons of men.
    17 The dead themselves do not praise Jah,
    Nor do any going down into silence."


    Psalm 1146:3-4...."Do not put your trust in princes
    Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.
    4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
    On that very day his thoughts perish."


    The Psalmist believed that the grave was a place of silence where thoughts can no longer be formulated.
    The dead do not praise God because once a person's spirit (breath) leaves the body, the fleshly organism dies...we return to the dust.....not just our bodies but all of who we are, dies.
    We "sleep" in the grave until it is time for Jesus to resurrect the dead. (John 5:28-29)

    When JW's speak of "the resurrection" it is usually referring to humankind, not just Jesus. The resurrection was an important part of Jewish belief and was demonstrated by Jesus. He raised people back to this life.

    Jews did not believe that a spiritual part of themselves departed from the body at death to go somewhere else in a conscious state. Thoughts perish.....the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)There was no life after death except by resurrection.

    It was prophesied that only "few" would be saved. (Matthew 7:13-14) So, it isn't a numbers game. Success is not measured in quantity....but in quality.

    Science has become the virtual 'religion' of the masses. Reason has supposedly replaced faith as the basis for beliefs....and yet science itself relies on 'beliefs' because it cannot substantiate much of what it teaches with reliable, substantive evidence.

    "But its in the Bible" is saying that we, as God's devoted servants trust his words and not man's. Since when has the human race proved itself trustworthy? Paul wrote..."let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar."

    Don't be surprised to hear of more and more corruption in places that you formerly trusted as God lifts the lid on the workings of the devil's system governing all of mankind's activities. Science cannot really verify very much at all...they just claim that they can. You can believe them if you wish. I will believe the words of my God.
     
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  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, it does not say bodily. The Bible can be interpreted in many ways, which is why there are so many Christians who do not agree on what it means and why there are so many Christian denominations.

    The Christian doctrine that has come to be widely accepted says Jesus rose bodily. Jesus did not rise or ascend bodily and Jesus will not return bodily. That is a Baha'i belief but there are also Christians who share this belief, and they are reading the same Bible you are reading. How do you explain that?
    Paul never said anything about a body in these verses... Do you SEE the word “body” in the following verses?

    1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    This is all about spiritual death, not physical death. Bodies once dead do not rise from graves. Souls then leave the body and rise to heaven and take on a spiritual body comprised of heavenly elements in that spiritual realm. They then continue to exist for eternity. The souls who are spiritually alive go to heaven the ones who are spiritually dead go to.... well, I do not know where they go, but they still have a chance to get close to God by reaching out to God, by the mercy of God and the prayers of others. There is no guarantee, and that is why it is best to get close to God before we die.

    John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.


    The excerpt for a longer article below explains what Paul thought about the bodily resurrection.

    What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death:

    Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

    They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.

    Later, perhaps after Paul's death, there was great disappointment within the Christian communities because Jesus had not returned as expected. They diverted their focus of attention away from Jesus' second coming. They studied his life and death more intensely. Legends without a historical basis were created by the early church; these included the empty tomb and described Jesus returning in his original body to eat and talk with his followers.

    In previous centuries, almost all Christians believed in miracles as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). These included creation, the story of Adam and Eve, a talking serpent, the great flood of Noah, the drying up of the Red/Reed sea, a prophet riding on a talking ***, the sun stopping in the sky, etc. From the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), they believed in the virgin birth, the Christmas star, angels appearing to the shepherds, Jesus healing the sick, etc. Many, perhaps most, liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events. A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events. Retired bishop John Shelby Spong commented:

    "I do admit that for Christians to enter this subject honestly is to invite great anxiety. It is to walk the razor's edge, to run the risk of cutting the final cord still binding many to the faith of their mothers and fathers. But the price for refusing to enter this consideration is for me even higher. The inability to question reveals that one has no confidence that one's belief system will survive such an inquiry. That is a tacit recognition that on unconscious levels, one's faith has already died. If one seeks to protect God from truth or new insights, then God has surely already died." 3


    Beliefs of progressive Christians, secularists, etc. about Jesus' resurrection
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Are you saying that Jesus brought nothing new at all?What about Jesus’ message of love and forgiveness? I do not recall that was a message Moses gave.

    Baha’is believe that every religion is based upon the teachings of the Manifestation of God who reveal those teachings, the Founder of that Faith. So Moses was the Founder of Judaism and He had a mission but Jesus had a different mission. The mission of Moses was to free the Israelites from bondage and bring the Ten Commandments. According to the Baha’i Faith, the mission of Jesus was the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed, as its central theme, the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society.Had the Moses done these things?
    Well, from my perspective, God’s abandonment of the Jews was because they rejected Jesus as the Son of God, or even as a Prophet of God. The early Jews (Scribes and Pharisees) did object to Jesus because He annulled the laws of divorce and of the Sabbath day, the weightiest of all the laws of Moses. They also did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah because He did not fulfill all the prophecies in the OT, only some of the prophecies. I believe that is valid because Jesus did not fulfill the OT prophecies that refer to the Messiah of the latter days, the Promised One of Jewish scripture; although Jesus was a Messiah, just not that one.

    To this very day Judaism rejects Jesus and the NT and it is mostly because they do not believe Jesus was their Messiah. But from a Baha’i perspective, the Jews should have accepted Jesus as a Manifestation of God and their Savior. Baha’u’llah had some words to say about the Jews’ rejection of Jesus:

    “These people of Israel are even unto the present day still expecting that Manifestation which the Bible hath foretold! ………… And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God. And they still await His coming!...” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 20-21
    You are free to believe that along with all the other Christians, but you are basing that on no research or investigation, including investigation of your own OT and NT Bible prophecies for the return… You base it purely on fear and prejudice. It is also because of what your religion teaches that you are not free to look at anything else, so in that sense you are no different from the Trinitarians. Mormons by contrast are encouraged to investigate other religions.

    Baha’u’llah was not another Christ. He was the return of the Spirit of Christ in another man. The reason Christians rejected Him and still do is because He was not the same body of Jesus that they believe ascended and will return, but the same body of Jesus cannot return because it died.

    Baha’is do not believe in the devil as a separate entity outside of us. We believe the satanic self is our own lower selfish nature. You have a valid point about false prophets because Jesus warned against them in Matthew 7:16-20 and in Matthew 24:23-24. However, logically speaking, just because there are some false prophets or false Christs does not mean there cannot be a true Christ. Moreover, Jesus gave other warnings, telling Christians to be watching so as not to miss the return of the Son of man: Luke 12:39, Matthew 24:42-44, Mark 13:32-34, 2 Peter 3:10-13.

    Interestingly, Jesus never referred to the Son of man in the first person or claimed to be the Son of man, nor did Jesus ever promise to return in the same body, which would be impossible since the body of Jesus died and only the Spirit of Jesus ascended. So it only makes sense that it would be the Spirit of Jesus that would return in another body, another man. That was promised in John 14, 15, and 16, when Jesus promised to send the Comforter and the Spirit of truth from the Father.

    Baha’u’llah fulfilled all the OT and NT prophecies for the return of Christ and they are all in the book entitled Thief in the Night. One of the prophecies He fulfilled was Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. He came from the east like lightening and that is explained in the book.
    Paul taught some things that Jesus had not taught. That does not mean the Gospel message was totally changed but it was changed. In effect it was added to and what was added was not what Jesus ever said.
    Baha’is do not believe that there is only one true religion. We believe that all the divinely revealed religions are true. There is only one religion, the religion of God, and it is revealed successively throughout the ages, according to the needs of humanity at the time of revelation. That is called Progressive Revelation. God is the All-Knowing Physician.

    “The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
    I agree about that. So what is it you think that man wants, just to be saved and forgiven and go to heaven? How is that different from JW beliefs?
    My belief is that the Spirit of Jesus was resurrected three days after Jesus was crucified because after three days the disciples being disheartened the Cause of Jesus became alive again. The disciples were disheartened after the crucifixion of Jesus so the Reality of Christ (which means His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power) was lost for two or three days. So the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body, but after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, so the Reality of Christ was revived and the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.

    That is completely different from what happened to the body of Jesus. I believe His body died and His soul rose to heaven and took on another form, a spiritual body comprised of elements in the spiritual realm. Unlike you, I do not believe that spiritual bodies can manifest in the flesh. Once a soul has become a spiritual body in heaven it remains forever a spiritual body and it can never return to earth because only physical bodies can live on earth.

    You said: “As a spirit being, he manifested himself in the flesh as other spirit beings had done before.” I do not believe a spirit can become flesh because flesh once dead remains dead. However, I heard another Baha’i say that what they thought happened after Jesus died and was seen by the disciples is that Jesus manifested himself as a Spirit body that could be seen by them, but it was just a vision, not a physical body as they thought it was.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    @ Deeje

    The greatest proof of a prophet is not miracles.. I suggest you read this short chapter which talks about the miracles of Jesus: 22: MIRACLES

    That said, Baha’u’llah did perform miracles and He kept them in a small book because He did not want people to believe in Him because of His miracles… As I recall reading, Jesus did not stress His miracles either, it was His followers who made a big deal out of them.

    How I know that Baha’u’llah is who He claims to be is the evidence that demonstrates that, including the following: It is the evidence that helps us determine which Prophets are from God... The evidence is as follows: His character; what He did during His mission on earth; the history of His religion; the scriptures that He wrote; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled, as well as prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that He established, what they have done and are doing now. All of this is verifiable, unlike the evidence we have for Jesus or any other Manifestation of God like Moses, since they were too remote in history. I believe in Jesus because of Baha’u’llah verified who He was, not because of the Bible. But now that I know Jesus existed, I can read the Bible and feel confident that the essence, or essential elements, of what is recorded in the NT about Jesus is accurate.

    You said: He told his disciples the reason why he had to return....to take them home to be with him. It was their anointing with holy spirit at Pentecost that gave them the inordinate desire to go to heaven. That is not to be confused with our natural desire to live in paradise. Where was the first one?

    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    I believe that the return that Jesus spoke of was Baha’u’llah since He was the same Spirit as Jesus in another human frame. You mentioned our natural desire to live in paradise. I guess you mean paradise on earth, the renewal of the Garden of Eden? I believe that paradise is in heaven. The Bab, who was the “Gate” who came to announce the coming of Baha’u’llah (like John the Baptist was to Jesus) wrote the following:

    “WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise.... Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.

    Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 77-78


    In other words, we should never do what we do to get to heaven, even if we do have a desire for heaven, but rather we do it because it is the right thing to do. IF Christians have “natural desires” to live in a physical body forever and eat drink and have sex, then they are going against everything Jesus taught, as well as against what Paul taught. That is called hypocrisy. What do you think these verses mean?

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Galatians 5:16-17 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

    You said: There is no new scripture. All we need is the Bible as humankind knows it. It takes us from the creation of man and the loss of paradise....to the sacrifice of Jesus and the restoration of all things a thousand years into the future.

    It is so sad that Christians believe this because it is so narrow-minded and it really is haughty because it discounts all other religions that are not Christian. Moreover, it is utterly illogical to say that the Bible is all humanity will ever need from God for all time and eternity. Do you watch any TV news? The Bible sure is not doing very much good for humanity right now. :rolleyes: Moreover, the Christian faith is hardly growing at all and it is declining in Europe and America. Two thirds of the world are not Christian so that would mean the two thirds of humanity is condemned to hell. Of course since the one third who call themselves Christian are not all really Christian the percentage is a lot more. Is that okay with you? Do you really believe a benevolent God would condemn that many people to hell? This defies reason and logic, but that is Christianity. ;)

    Speaking of science, it knows enough to know that a physical body once decomposed remains decomposed.

    So you are going to play that “omnipotent God” card? Been there, done that, hundreds of times on these forums. Logically speaking, just because God CAN do anything does not mean God WILL do anything….. that you want Him to do. Why do you want to live in a physical body on earth for eternity? That would be boring as hell. :(

    If it says that in the Bible and it says bodies I’d like to see the verses, but I doubt it says that; Christians just misconstrued the Bible, as usual. But that really is not the point if a couple of bodies were resurrected. Baha’u’llah revived a dead body once. The point is that there would be no reason to and you are talking about mass resurrection – why?

    John 11:23-25 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

    Those verses were all about spiritual resurrection, not about a body being revived. How sad it is that Christians cannot even understand what Jesus is saying. :( It is even sadder that Christians worship the physical body considering what Jesus taught about spirit and flesh… One more verse: Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.Jesus was talking about the spiritually dead.

    You said: Belief in an immortal soul is a Platonic Greek idea, not a biblical teaching at all.
    Souls cannot exist without a body and a body cannot exist without spirit (breath). The "soul" is not a disembodied spirit. When God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, he did not think that God would raise his son Isaac as a spirit....the promise was that he was going to father humans on earth.

    That is too bad it was not specifically stated in the Bible such that it was clear, but it is in the Qur’an and the Baha’i Writings. This is a new day so God has revealed some new stuff. The OT was written over 3000 years ago… It is time to move on to the new Day of God. :D

    This Garden of Eden restored is a total fantasy. I cannot say exactly how it was concocted but it is UN-believable that anyone could actually believe it… Sorry, but it defies reason and common sense…. This is the Age of Reason. ;) You are free to believe that but I believe the real paradise is in the spiritual world, not here on earth:

    “O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

    (Continued on next post)
     
    #129 Trailblazer, Feb 8, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    @ Deeje

    John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    According to my beliefs the voice they will hear (his voice) is the Voice of Baha’u’llah who was the Resurrection since He brought a new Revelation from God.

    “The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the most great Resurrection. We cherish the hope that, quaffing from the choice wine of divine inspiration and the pure waters of heavenly grace, thou mayest attain the station of discovery and witnessing, and behold, both outwardly and inwardly, all that which thou hast mentioned.” The Tabernacle of Unity, pp. 62-63

    Baha’u’llah was the Christ Spirit returned, the Messiah promised in the OT… Those who recognize Him shall come forth out of spiritual sleep and spiritual death. Those who turn away from Baha’u’llah shall remain spiritually dead. This has nothing to do with physical bodies, nothing at all.

    “Say: The heavens have been folded together, and the earth is held within His grasp, and the corrupt doers have been held by their forelock, and still they understand not. They drink of the tainted water, and know it not. Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy,others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it. And when they behold the face of the All-Merciful, their own faces are saddened, while they are disporting themselves. They hasten forward to Hell Fire, and mistake it for light. Far from God be what they fondly imagine! Say: Whether ye rejoice or whether ye burst for fury, the heavens are cleft asunder, and God hath come down, invested with radiant sovereignty. All created things are heard exclaiming: “The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.”” Gleanings, pp. 41-42

    “Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.” Gleanings, p. 213

    “He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze. He is indeed a captive who hath not recognized the Supreme Redeemer, but hath suffered his soul to be bound, distressed and helpless, in the fetters of his desires.

    O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.” Gleanings, p. 169


    What Baha’u’llah wrote is exactly what Jesus had said about spiritual life and spiritual death. Jesus was referring to the eternal life of the soul, not of the body. Where did Jesus ever mention the body living forever? Nowhere.

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”


    I agree that the body goes into the ground but I believe the soul ascends to the spiritual world where it take s on a new form, a spiritual body. It then continues to move towards God for all of eternity.

    “And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156


    Even if Jesus raised people back to life that does not mean all people will rise from graves after they die… There is no logical connection whatsoever. I do not know or care what Jews believe about the resurrection of the body. Apparently they, like most Christians, misconstrued the scriptures. It is just ludicrous that anyone would believe that bodies rise from graves. I would sooner be an atheist. :eek:

    You said: It was prophesied that only "few" would be saved. (Matthew 7:13-14) So, it isn't a numbers game. Success is not measured in quantity....but in quality.

    In Matthew 7:13-14 Jesus says that it is the gate that leads to life. This means the gate that leads men to heaven. Jesus says that it is a “narrow” gate, meaning it is difficult to get through. He says, “Few there be that find it.” So Jesus tells us that entering heaven will not be easy. This is a surprise to most Christians who believe all you have to do to be saved is believe in Jesus.

    Now consider the wide gate. Jesus tells us some things about it. It is a “wide” gate so it is a gate that is easily seen. Perhaps it is attractive and it draws people to it. This gate is the entrance to a broad way which means that it is not hard to enter this gate nor walk the road it covers. But Jesus tells us that it is a gate that leads to destruction or Hell. Jesus told us there are going to be “many” who go in this gate.

    God does not make it easy to find Him and that is why it is so difficult for people to recognize Baha’u’llah as the Return of Christ, especially Christians. That is why the Bible does not spell everything out, because the gate is narrow and God made it that way on purpose, since God does not want people who are not sincere seekers of truth, people who walk through the wide gate and follow the easy way... Sure, it is much easier to walk through the wide gate with all the other Christians, but that won’t be your best option. The narrow gate is what God wants you to use: Matthew 7:21 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” The will of the Father for this day is to recognize Baha’u’llah. You can deny that but it won’t change reality.

    So these verses are about the few people who recognize the Manifestation of God when He comes, in this day that is Baha’u’llah. I cannot tell you what will happen to everyone else. I do not believe they will go to hell but they won’t go to the Crimson Ark that is for the people of Baha either.

    “Drink with healthy relish, O people of Bahá. Ye are indeed they with whom it shall be well. This is what they who have near access to God have attained. This is the flowing water ye were promised in the Qur’án, and later in the Bayán, as a recompense from your Lord, the God of Mercy. Blessed are they that quaff it.” Gleanings, pp. 46

    “How great the blessedness that awaiteth the king who will arise to aid My Cause in My Kingdom, who will detach himself from all else but Me! Such a king is numbered with the companions of the Crimson Ark—the Ark which God hath prepared for the people of Bahá.” Gleanings, p. 212


    You said: Science has become the virtual 'religion' of the masses. Reason has supposedly replaced faith as the basis for beliefs....and yet science itself relies on 'beliefs' because it cannot substantiate much of what it teaches with reliable, substantive evidence.

    There is no contradiction between true religion and science. They are like two wings of a bird; we need both to fly. You are free to believe whatever you want to because you have free will. The Word of God for this day says that science and religion are in harmony. Science addresses the material world needs and religion addresses morals and the spiritual world beyond.
     
    #130 Trailblazer, Feb 9, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  11. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Jesus did not change any of God's laws. What changed were the sacrificial arrangements because he fulfilled them...as he said..."Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place. 19 Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens." (Matthew 5:17-19)

    The new commandment Jesus gave was not really new.....it was just presented in a way that seemed new.

    John 13:34-35..."I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves".....

    "This is my commandment, that you love one another just as I have loved you. 13 No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends.” (John 15:12-13)


    Did Jews have a law that told them to love their fellowman?

    Deuteronomy 19:18..."‘You must not take vengeance nor hold a grudge against the sons of your people, and you must love your fellow man as yourself. I am Jehovah."

    The "golden rule" was always there. Jesus just taught them a better way to show it....a deeper kind of love...."agape".....self sacrificing love.

    Forgiveness? What was God's law pertaining to forgiveness?

    Leviticus 6:6-7...."And he will bring to the priest as his guilt offering to Jehovah a sound ram from the flock according to the assessed value, for a guilt offering. 7 The priest will make atonement for him before Jehovah, and he will be forgiven for anything he may have done resulting in his guilt.”

    What made you think love and forgiveness was lacking? The law mediated by Moses was inspired by the same God who taught his son. It was the woeful implementation of the Law by the hypocritical religious leaders that made it seem heartless.

    To me that means that God speaks with a forked tongue. Why would he send different messengers into the world to give confusing messages to people of different nations? It is not a compatible message from all the founders of these faiths, many of whom practiced what God abhors. There is no way that they can all be from God...but they may well be from the pretender however.
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Moses was told by God that 'a prophet greater than himself' was to come. The similarities between the two are numerous. Both were mediators of a covenant. Both were used to free captives and experience spiritual liberation. Both escaped death as infants. Both performed miracles. Both were involved in feeding multitudes. After their deaths, both had their bodies disposed of by God. (Deuteronomy 34:5-6; Acts 2:31) Not so dissimilar, but Moses was not raised after his death. As a pre-Christian servant of God, he did not go to heaven because Jesus was the first human raised to spirit life in heaven. (John 3:13) He sleeps in his grave along with all the other men of faith spoken of by the apostle Paul.....

    Hebrews 11:13..."In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land."

    They had faith that they would receive the promised resurrection, like Daniel who was told....“But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”

    The meaning of the word resurrection (the Greek word a·naʹsta·sis) literally means “raising up; standing up.”

    Only if you put down the erroneous belief in an immortal soul, does this all make sense IMO.

    Actually, he didn't do any of that. He reinforced the laws on divorce, making them more difficult because the Jews were divorcing their wives on frivolous grounds.
    The Law stated....
    “If a man marries a woman but she does not please him because he found something indecent about her, he must write out a certificate of divorce for her, hand it to her, and dismiss her from his house." (Deuteronomy 24:1)

    In the Tanach this implies a moral matter. The man has to have found some indecency in his wife.

    Jesus took it back to the beginning....one wife...and these two as "one flesh" were not to be separated....that meant NO divorce except on the grounds of unfaithfulness. (Matthew 19:4-9) That obviously did not go down well.

    As I said previously, the Jews have a good reason to reject Jesus.....to acknowledge him makes them murderers of their own savior. There was no other savior. Jesus' death is what redeemed mankind and opened the way to heaven for his anointed disciples to follow.

    The next time humans would "see" Jesus was as a mighty King leading his angelic forces in a showdown with the devil and all who follow him....even unwittingly. Jesus fulfilled all the Messianic prophesies for his first appearance and would introduce Kingdom rule when he returned.

    Oh please. If you believe that you are a disciple of Christ and have the right religion, tell me where Jesus ever encouraged people to check out others? When Gentiles came into the Christian faith, they had to abandon their pagan beliefs and false gods. None of them were acceptable to Jesus.

    Fear and prejudice? Really? No research or investigation? You've got to be kidding.

    When were the Jews ever told to investigate pagan religions? They were told the opposite....don't touch them with a barge pole! When they disobeyed that directive they suffered God's displeasure and his punishment.

    You have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of the Bible's narrative concerning Christ and his role in redeeming mankind. You can believe your prophet and treat Jesus as just another Messiah (but not that one) if you like, but there was to be no other Messiah.

    I believe you are the one who has been hoodwinked by a man who accomplished what? He has a bunch of people thinking that he is Christ returned and yet here we all are still suffering and dying in our sins. If he was the spirit of Christ, what good was he? Has he brought Kingdom rule to mankind eliminating sickness, suffering and death? Are we living in the "new earth" that was promised when he became Earth's ruler? What exactly are Bah'ai's waiting for?
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The title "son of man" was alluding to his human nature.
    In prophesy Daniel recounted a vision in which he saw the future Messiah enthroned in heaven....recorded almost 600 years before Jesus was born on earth.

    Daniel 7:13-14....“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."

    This is our King, Jesus Christ given the power and authority to rule "peoples, nations and language groups"...all of whom would serve him. He will rule the world in a kingdom that is everlasting. This is what we are to expect of the Messiah. What did your prophet do that fulfilled what Jesus was to accomplish upon his return?

    Jesus will never return in a human body.....he sacrificed the first one....why would he appear in the flesh twice?
    That betrays an incorrect understanding of why he came in the flesh the first time.

    Romans 6:8-10..."...if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is no longer master over him. 10 For the death that he died, he died with reference to sin once for all time, but the life that he lives, he lives with reference to God."

    Christ died once, and dies no more.....your prophet died and has an elaborate tomb....I ask you again...where is Jesus' tomb?

    Please provide references that Paul taught things that Jesus didn't. Is every single thing Jesus said and did recorded in the scriptures? (John 21:25)

    Oh dear, you think we only want the reward? There are much bigger issues at stake than what we personally desire.
    In the Lord's prayer Jesus asked that we pray for the sanctification of God's name. God's name and reputation was slandered and maligned by satan in Eden, accusing him of being a liar and a lousy Father. This whole exercise is an object lesson to demonstrate that God is neither of those things. He will clear his name of all reproach. (Psalm 74:10, 22, 23)

    You are applying the belief of an immortal soul to a man who did not believe in that pagan idea. Jesus the human was dead in his tomb by his own admission for 3 days and nights. He did not go anywhere until the third day when his God and Father raised him from the dead....not in a physical body but in a spirit body. It was the resurrection of the person of Jesus in a different body, having accomplished his role as redeemer, there was no further need for him to continue in the constraints of human flesh.

    The soul is what breathes. The soul is not disembodied spirit. Can you refer me to scripture that says it is?

    The spirits are angels, not dead people. They never were dead people because they existed before God even made the material universe.....so the rebellious angels that materialized in Noah's day took on flesh and even fathered children. The faithful angels that appeared to Abraham and Lot ate and drank like any other humans. Spirits can materialize human flesh as the Bible clearly states.

    Did Thomas put his fingers in the wounds of an apparition? Did Jesus speak and interact with his apostles for the whole 40 days before his ascension or did they see just a vision of him? It seems as if some people will deny and deny, just to hold onto their chosen errors. Your choice.

    BTW, it is pointless quoting the words of a prophet I do not accept as anything but a deluded fraud...sorry.
     
    #134 Deeje, Feb 9, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You raise an excellent point I would like to elaborate upon. I have addressed this subject on forums so many times that I already have a Word document written up. :)

    As a preface to what I wrote below, I said to someone once: “Unless they are Baha’is they will never realize that the essential “spiritual message” in all religions is the same message.”

    Well, you just proved me wrong since you just pointed out how the essential “spiritual message” (e.g., love, forgiveness) is the same in Judaism and Christianity. :)

    You said: The law mediated by Moses was inspired by the same God who taught his son.”

    The fact remains that the Spiritual Law of God is also the same in all the other great religions of God such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam and the Baha’i Faith. So below is my explanation of the similarities and differences between religions and why they exist:

    The first part of the Religion of God which refers to spiritual truth is the same in every religion. The second part of the Religion of God which refers to material things is different in each religion. It changes in each prophetic cycle to accommodate the needs of the times.

    In the following passage, the Law of God refers to the divinely revealed religion of God. The spiritual message (spiritual virtues and divine qualities) are the same in all the great world religions:

    “the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

    These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet.

    The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.”
    Some Answered Questions, pp. 46-48

    In addition to these two parts of the Religion of God, we have the primary mission of each Messenger, which changes from age to age; and it is progressive, each mission building upon the previous one. Jesus focused on a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Muhammad focused on nation building, and Baha’u’llah focused on world unity and the oneness of mankind. Each one of these was a necessary building block that enabled the next one to take place. Mankind’s spiritual evolution develops gradually, proceeding step by step, and that is why the deity reveals religious Truth in various stages over time. That is called Progressive Revelation....
    First, you have to separate the message (revealed scriptures) from what the people “did to the message” after it was delivered… There are two reasons that God wants us to turn to the new Messenger: (1) He brought a new message God wants us to have, and (2) the messages from the older religions have been corrupted by men (as you yourself said what happened to Christianity early on). The Manifestation of God for this day is His Manifestation, Baha’u’llah:

    “This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

    That certainly does not mean that when we become a Baha’i we just throw away the Bible. Most Baha’is I know were formerly Christians and they refer to the Bible often, and some even go to church. :)
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I am glad to see you see the similarities between Moses and Jesus. Actually, as I just pointed out in the previous post, the only difference was the social laws related to which refer to the material world and their mission. The difference I see is that Moses was not crucified, He lived into old age. However, Moses also sacrificed suffered and sacrificed His life for the Cause of God.

    So now you are saying just what the Christians say, that Jesus was raised and that is what gets people to heaven. The only difference is that JWs believe that Jesus’ spirit was raised rather than His body. However the doctrine is the same. Because of this resurrection we are saved and forgiven of our sins and go to heaven… Is that what you believe? As far as I am concerned the cross sacrifice and the teachings of Jesus are what get one to heaven. I see no need for a resurrection and neither do liberal Christians. It was done on the cross. The resurrection was an add-on, and an unnecessary one at that.

    So you believe that everyone who died before Jesus came is going to remain in their graves forever, meaning that they have no afterlife? How just is that? What did Moses do to deserve that? What did anyone do to deserve that? I know some avid Jews and they believe that everyone goes to heaven. Even the worst sinners only spend at most a year in hell getting cleansed and then they move on… This is similar to what Baha’is believe although we do not believe that hell is a place but rather a soul state of distance from God, as contrasted to heaven, which is nearness to God.

    I know you believe in Adam and Eve and original sin which is why they needed Jesus but I do not believe in original sin. I believe every human has a propensity to sin since we all have a higher spiritual nature and a lower material nature, and that is why we needed the teachings of Jesus to follow, in order to live a moral life.

    Yes the word resurrection means “raised up” but it refers to the Resurrection of the Cause of God when a new Manifestation of God comes to proclaim His Cause… It does not refer to the raising up of a body from a grave.

    “attainment unto the divine Presence” in the “Day of Resurrection” is explicitly stated in the Book. It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by “Resurrection” is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause, and by “attainment unto the divine Presence” is meant attainment u
    nto the presence of His Beauty in the person of His Manifestation.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 169-170

    “Strive, therefore, O my brother, to grasp the meaning of “Resurrection,” and cleanse thine ears from the idle sayings of these rejected people. Shouldst thou step into the realm of complete detachment, thou wilt readily testify thatno day is mightier than this Day, and that no resurrection more awful than this Resurrection can ever be conceived. One righteous work performed in this Day, equalleth all the virtuous acts which for myriads of centuries men have practised—nay, We ask forgiveness of God for such a comparison!” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 144-145


    You said: Only if you put down the erroneous belief in an immortal soul, does this all make sense IMO.

    I do not know what you mean by that. :confused:

    Annulled means “to declare invalid” and that is what Jesus did because Jesus had more stringent requirements for a divorce. So there is a difference in the divorce laws. That is the second part of the Religion of God that changes from age to age.

    The Jews of this day did not murder Jesus so they are not accountable for that. The Jews I know reject Jesus because they say He is a false prophet, since Christians claim Jesus is the Messiah and Jews know that He did not fulfill all the Old Testament (Tanakh) prophecies, so He cannot possibly be the Jewish Messiah.

    I thought you said you did not believe that Jesus was going to return. Christians can claim that Jesus will fulfill the OT prophecies that He did not fulfill at His first coming, but that is just a claim. It means nothing to anyone except Christians. Saying Jesus is going to return after over 2000 years is the target of jokes for any non-Christian. I don’t laugh, I just consider it the saddest thing on earth. I listen to Christian radio for inspiration but I cry when I hear that song on the radio “Even So Come.” Jesus is not coming back, not ever. Baha’u’llah was the return of the Christ Spirit that Jesus promised to send from the Father and He was the fulfillment of all the prophecies for the appearance of the Messiah in the OT. All the Messianic prophecies will be fulfilled during this age as the result of what Baha’u’llah revealed to mankind. It is simply irrefutable when you look at the preponderance of evidence.

    But you can keep waiting along with all the other Christians. It does not matter to God or to Baha’u’llah. People only punish themselves by turning away from God when He appears in new attire:

    “He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

    That punishment exists in this world since people suffer by virtue of not knowing what God’s will is for them, even though they do not realize it. The major repercussions are felt after we die. Christians and everyone else will regret not having believed in Baha’u’llah and what they lost as a result.

    You said: Oh please. If you believe that you are a disciple of Christ and have the right religion, tell me where Jesus ever encouraged people to check out others? When Gentiles came into the Christian faith, they had to abandon their pagan beliefs and false gods. None of them were acceptable to Jesus.

    Where did Jesus encourage investigation? You have to be kidding. :rolleyes:

    Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    Of course, Christians do not understand the meaning of their own scriptures. That means that you are supposed to be looking for the true Prophet. Otherwise, Jesus would not have said “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” So those verses are both an admonition to be careful of false prophets and an injunction to look for True Prophets.

    Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

    You said: When were the Jews ever told to investigate pagan religions? They were told the opposite....don't touch them with a barge pole! When they disobeyed that directive they suffered God's displeasure and his punishment.

    The mistake that both Jews and Christians make is assuming that ALL religions other than their own are pagan. ;)

    You said: You have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of the Bible's narrative concerning Christ and his role in redeeming mankind. You can believe your prophet and treat Jesus as just another Messiah (but not that one) if you like, but there was to be no other Messiah.

    You sound exactly like a Christian I am posting to on another forum, exactly. Christians are carbon copies of each other…. Jesus is the Only Messiah, etc., etc., etc. You are so wrong. The prophecies about Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah are is right in your own Bible, you are just too blind to see it, blinded by your attachment to Jesus..

    You said: I believe you are the one who has been hoodwinked by a man who accomplished what? He has a bunch of people thinking that he is Christ returned and yet here we all are still suffering and dying in our sins. If he was the spirit of Christ, what good was he? Has he brought Kingdom rule to mankind eliminating sickness, suffering and death? Are we living in the "new earth" that was promised when he became Earth's ruler? What exactly are Bah'ai's waiting for?

    Jesus already accomplished His Mission and now He has stepped out of the way to yield to Baha’u’llah as an Almighty God has ordained. We do not need to be saved from our sins twice. Individuals were already saved by the blood and teachings of Jesus… Now it is time for humanity to be saved.

    I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 243

    The “new earth” that was promised is on its way. That does not get built overnight because it is the job of humans to build it. There is no waving of a magic wand and then suddenly all the problems in the world will be gone overnight, including climate change. Get real. ;)

    As a RESULT of the Coming of Baha’u’llah…..

    “The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great,this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.......
    Say: This is the infallible Balance which the Hand of God is holding,in which all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth are weighed, and their fate determined, if ye be of them that believe and recognize this truth. Say: Through it the poor have been enriched, the learned enlightened, and the seekers enabled to ascend unto the presence of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 136-137


    “This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness.......
    Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7


    What did Baha’u’llah do? Do you want the short version or the long version of His entire 30 year mission on earth where he sacrificed and suffered for ALL of humanity so we could be saved, no man left behind. :D
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The title Son of man is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented. This is what we are to expect of the Messiah. He was not going to have a kingdom like an earthly ruler and rule over people, but rather the Kingdom that He set up will rule forever. What He revealed and wrote down will never pass away, not anymore than the words of Jesus will ever pass away. It was not Baha’u’llah who was going to build the Kingdom of God on earth. It is His followers who will do that with what He revealed in His Writings.

    As a RESULT of the coming of Baha’u’llah peoples, nations, and language groups will all serve him by being His followers and doing His Will, according to what He wrote, including a Book of Laws.

    As a RESULT of the coming of Baha’u’llah there will be a new government and peace on earth, but He was not going to rule over it like a king because He has a given life span and then he died. His mission was to receive a revelation from God and write it down so we would have it to build the Kingdom of God on earth.

    Isaiah 9:6-7 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”
    What is your point? Why does it matter where Jesus’ tomb is? The bodies of Jesus and Baha’u’llah are not important... As Jesus said “let the dead bury the dead.” The body is just the outer shell of the person... The soul is the sum total of the personality so it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind remains the same person, and he goes to the spiritual world. He takes on spiritual body that is comprised of heavenly elements that exist in the spiritual realm of existence and he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. We cannot know what those spiritual bodies will be like.

    Jesus and Baha’u’llah are at the Right Hand of God so they are there waiting for us after we die, to help us get close to God, just as they did that while they walked the earth.
    I have something I plan to post on a new thread about how Paul affected Christianity, but for now let me say that the official position of the Baha’i Faith is to afford both Peter and Paul high praise.
    God needs nothing from humans, let alone having His name cleared.

    “The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 260
    What you are calling a spirit body is simply a soul in a spiritual body, because there was no further need for him to continue in the constraints of human flesh.
    I never said the soul was a disembodied spirit. The soul is what gives the body life, what animates the body. It can continue to exist in the spiritual realm because it takes on a new form made up of elements in that realm. For practical purposes the human spirit is the same thing as the human soul.
    So are you saying that Jesus had a physical body now? I thought you said He was raised in spirit. So you are saying that Jesus rose in spirit and then materialized into human flesh? I think they saw a vision of His Sprit body but nobody really knows what happened. People just make their choice what to believe from what they read in the NT stories.
    You think He is a deluded fraud only because He claims to be the return of Christ, and you like all Christians have an attachment to the same man Jesus, whether in body of spirit... That means that anyone else is a deluded fraud in your eyes, even if you know nothing about them at all.

    So I am supposed to read Bible scriptures because you believe those but you call Baha’u’llah a deluded fraud when you do not even know a thing about Him... It just so happens I just posted something to a Christian on another forum last night that applies to this situation, so it is a simple copy/paste. I said:

    You just committed the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization by comparing Baha’u’llah with false christs.

    What you said is true. There are many false christs since the beginning of Jesus’ first Advent into this world. But it does not matter how many false christs there have been. The point you so easily blow off is that that in no way precludes Baha’u’llah being the return of the Christ Spirit. Unless you can prove that He was not you are up the creek without a paddle.

    You assume, without any evidence (since you never researched the claim of Baha’u’llah) that Baha’u’llah was a false prophet. Thus, you have based your conclusion on “insufficient evidence,” essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables. There is no way you can wriggle out of this unless you can prove that Baha’u’llah was a false prophet.

    Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables. Hasty generalization - Wikipedia

    Baha’u’llah was either the return of Christ or not. There is enough evidence for Baha’u’llah to sink a large ocean liner. Whether it is believable to you makes no difference because what people find believable does not prove jack squat. The only thing that is relevant for making that determination is the evidence, period.

    You won’t even look at the evidence, so you imagine Baha’u’llah was not the return of Christ. However, that counts for nothing because Baha’u’llah was either the return of Christ or not. The fact that there were numerous false christs who fooled people has absolutely nothing to do with Baha’u’llah.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I am a very logical person. I do not base my decision about what to believe about God on my emotions, attachment to a man. I am not attached to the man Baha’u’llah, I am attached to God who sent Him. By contrast, Christians are attached to the man Jesus, so even if you do not believe He was God incarnate it is just the same because you are worshiping Jesus, not God. The Jews are sure right about this. :)
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    @Trailblazer
    It seems as if you ignore the most important point right off the bat......

    In Genesis we see clearly that all the promises for the Messiah were to come from Abraham through Isaac. When Hagar, Sarah's Egyptian hand maiden bore a son to Abraham (as a form of surrogacy that was practiced in those days) this is what Genesis 21:7-13 says regarding where the promised one would come from....

    “Who would have said to Abraham, ‘Sarah will certainly nurse children’? Yet, I have given birth to a son for him in his old age.”

    8 Now the child grew and was weaned, and Abraham prepared a big feast on the day that Isaac was weaned. 9 But Sarah kept noticing that the son of Haʹgar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, was mocking Isaac. 10 So she said to Abraham: “Drive out this slave girl and her son, for the son of this slave girl is not going to be an heir along with my son, with Isaac!” 11 But what she said about his son was very displeasing to Abraham. 12 Then God said to Abraham: “Do not be displeased by what Sarah is saying to you about the boy and about your slave girl. Listen to her, for what will be called your offspring will be through Isaac. 13 As for the son of the slave girl, I will also make a nation out of him, because he is your offspring.”


    Ishmael was NOT going to have a part in God's purpose to produce the promised seed. God himself said...."for what will be called your offspring will be through Isaac. 13 As for the son of the slave girl, I will also make a nation out of him, because he is your offspring."

    Islam came through Ishmael's descendents, and his offspring would become a "nation" but not in producing the Messiah...either the first time or the second. The second coming of Christ was not to be in the flesh.

    Jesus said..."In a little while the world will see me no more, but you will see me, because I live and you will live." (John 14:19)
    The world was not going to see Jesus again but his disciples would. He appeared to them throughout the 40 days he spent strengthening them for his final departure. And when he returned he would resurrect them to spirit life in heaven. In the meantime they would "sleep in death" as Paul said. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

    At Acts 13:34-37...Paul said of Jesus...."And the fact that He [God] resurrected him from the dead never again to return to corruption, He has stated in this way: ‘I will give you the expressions of loyal love promised to David, which are faithful.’ 35 So it also says in another psalm: ‘You will not allow your loyal one to see corruption.’ 36 David, on the one hand, rendered service to God in his own generation, fell asleep in death, was laid with his forefathers, and did see corruption. 37 On the other hand, the one whom God raised up did not see corruption."

    This is why I asked you about Jesus' tomb......he was resurrected and it was prophesied in the Psalms that his flesh would not be corrupted in the grave. His remains are not in a tomb. Your prophet's tomb no doubt has his remains in it. There is no way he can be the returned Christ.

    Islam has nothing to do with the seed of promise....Isaac's descendants produced him once. The second time he appears, it will not be in the flesh...he doesn't need to die twice.

    "Salvation" Jesus said "originates with the Jews"....not with Muslims. Bah'ai seems to me to be Islam's version of universalism. I don't buy it...it makes no sense to me at all....."everyone is saved.....Jesus has already been and gone (twice)...nothing to see here, just believe in whatever religion you like 'cause we're all going to heaven"....sorry that is just nonsense to me. God did not create this earth as a training ground for heaven and a hotbed of religious confusion.

    You are free to hold whatever views you choose, but I have no inclination to keep rehashing these things.

    I believe that Jesus' return is yet future, but we are living in the time of the end right now, so let's wait and see what happens...shall we? [​IMG]
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Nor do I... I am not going to address what you post about the Bible because I do not know the Bible well enough to debate it. However, keep in mind that logically speaking, what I know about the Bible has nothing to do with what the Truth of the Bible is. :D

    For now, I will just say this, what I just posted to a Trinitarian Christian this afternoon:

    Okay then, other Christians are hearing things that are contradictory to what you hear, since other Christians believe differently than you do... Does an Almighty God contradict Himself?

    Do you NOT SEE the problem with personal interpretations of the Bible as a way to infallibly know what it means? That is precisely why the Representative of God among men is necessary to interpret the Bible and why His appointed interpreters are the next best to do so, since they studied under each other and had access to what He knew passed down to them from Him... As Baha’is we are told that whatever has not been interpreted by them we are free to interpret as we want. This makes logical sense.

    How did Baha’u’llah know what the Bible meant? The answer is rather simple. He had God’s knowledge, which is All Knowledge. Jesus also had All Knowledge, but that does not help us since He was gone before the Bible was written. The Holy Spirit taught Baha’u’llah the knowledge of all that hath been. The Holy Spirit only comes to Manifestations of God, not to ordinary people, so there is no way you or any Christian can ever know what Jesus and Baha’u’llah knew.

    When are you going to understand that the Bible does not say anything. Like any book, it is interpreted as a person reads it and people interpret it differently. So what you are saying is that the Bible says what you believe it says, and there is no good reason to believe that you know what it means, no reason at all. To insist that you know is arrogant. I do not insist that I KNOW, I only say that if Baha’u’llah or one of His appointed interpreters has interpreted something in the Bible, I accept their interpretation because they know more than me. Also, I can know what certain verses mean if they refer to the return of Christ, because that already happened.

    Again, why do you think YOU understand the Bible teachings? WHO conferred authority upon you? The word, as it is written means different things to different people. Why do you keep sidestepping this, ignoring what I say? You keep coming back with the same thing like a puppet, but you are because you have been thoroughly indoctrinated by the Church. You think these are your beliefs but they are not. They are beliefs of the Church that you have accepted blindly and you do not even know it. That is sad because there will be serious repercussions after you die and find out the truth.
    You can believe whatever you want but please bear in mind that belief does not create reality... God creates reality. We either discover it or fail to do so.

    Yes, let’s wait. :D
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Be careful that your own words do not apply equally to yourself. Nuff said.

    In the end all will be revealed one way or the other. [​IMG] In my beliefs, everyone will be where they have placed themselves by their own choices at the end of this present world system. God will judge all of us by those choices.
     
    #140 Deeje, Feb 11, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
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