NetDoc,
It would depend on your definition of fruit. Based on what you have said so far, you and I do not have the same definition but that is to be expected at this point. The purpose of this thread is to see if we can agree on one. My definition does include character as one of many aspects, all of which must be present. However, it is not just the appealing skin or peel or just the seeds with their potential or just the juice regardless of how good and sweet it is that is required, it is the whole fruit. Also please remember Jesus said, by their fruits you will recognize them. Again, it is not character and character alone that is the identifier! It is by all the other things, by all the fruits, in addition to character, that we can make a positive identification. It is very possible for you and I to be fooled if character and character alone were all there was to use for identification purposes; in his Word, God gives us more than just that one thing and for that very reason.
Perhaps we should talk about some specifics. Earlier you said that there are two commandments or laws that are required to be observed, followed or obeyed to be a disciple of Jesus. I feel fairly certain that you were referring to Matthew 22:34-40 or Mark 12: 28-34; I am using Mark as the basis for my questions to you.
The first command Jesus gives is a quote from Deuteronomy 6:4-5: Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. 5 And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.
The second command Jesus gives is a quote from Leviticus 19:18: You must not take vengeance nor have a grudge against the sons of your people; and you must love your fellow as yourself. I am Jehovah.
Lets deal with the first command first. Note the response to what Jesus said: The scribe said to him: Teacher, you well said in line with truth, He is One, and there is no other than He; 33 and this loving him with ones whole heart and with ones whole understanding and with ones whole strength and this loving ones neighbor as oneself is worth far more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 At this Jesus, discerning he had answered intelligently [answered with understanding, NAB and others], said to him: You are not far from the kingdom of God. (Mark 12:32-34)
We do not know for certain that that particular scribe became a Christian but for the sake of my questions to you we are going to assume that Jesus read his heart correctly and that he did. As a Christian, what God did he worship with all [his] understanding? What was his nature and name? Would he agree with you that it matters not which God you worship just as long as you are of good character? If he were here today would he think that someone of outstanding character that bows down in worship and prayer five times a day to a God named Allah was a fellow disciple of Jesus?
(1 Corinthians 6:12) All things are lawful for me; but not all things are advantageous. All things are lawful for me; but I will not let myself be brought under authority by anything.
(1 Corinthians 10:23) All things are lawful; but not all things are advantageous. All things are lawful; but not all things build up.
(Romans 6:14) For sin must not be master over you, seeing that you are not under law but under undeserved kindness.
(Romans 14:19) So, then, let us pursue the things making for peace and the things that are upbuilding to one another.
(Romans 15:2) Let each of us please [his] neighbor in what is good for [his] upbuilding.
In short, the answer is because doing so violates the second law and is a sure identifier of the many. By the same token not doing so is obeying both the first and the second law and is a sure identifier of the few. Oh yes it is harder to restrict ones religious beliefs to no more and no less than what the Bible says but it is a protection against becoming enslaved by your own desires, a desperate treacherous heart or other fallacious misleading thinking. Remember:
(1 Timothy 4:1-3) However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.
(2 Timothy 4:1-5) I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is destined to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his kingdom, 2 preach the word, be at it urgently in favorable season, in troublesome season, reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all long-suffering and [art of] teaching. {In many versions the word doctrine is used rather than teaching.} 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching {doctrine}, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, suffer evil, do [the] work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry. (Curly brackets are mine.)
It would depend on your definition of fruit. Based on what you have said so far, you and I do not have the same definition but that is to be expected at this point. The purpose of this thread is to see if we can agree on one. My definition does include character as one of many aspects, all of which must be present. However, it is not just the appealing skin or peel or just the seeds with their potential or just the juice regardless of how good and sweet it is that is required, it is the whole fruit. Also please remember Jesus said, by their fruits you will recognize them. Again, it is not character and character alone that is the identifier! It is by all the other things, by all the fruits, in addition to character, that we can make a positive identification. It is very possible for you and I to be fooled if character and character alone were all there was to use for identification purposes; in his Word, God gives us more than just that one thing and for that very reason.
Perhaps we should talk about some specifics. Earlier you said that there are two commandments or laws that are required to be observed, followed or obeyed to be a disciple of Jesus. I feel fairly certain that you were referring to Matthew 22:34-40 or Mark 12: 28-34; I am using Mark as the basis for my questions to you.
The first command Jesus gives is a quote from Deuteronomy 6:4-5: Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. 5 And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.
The second command Jesus gives is a quote from Leviticus 19:18: You must not take vengeance nor have a grudge against the sons of your people; and you must love your fellow as yourself. I am Jehovah.
Lets deal with the first command first. Note the response to what Jesus said: The scribe said to him: Teacher, you well said in line with truth, He is One, and there is no other than He; 33 and this loving him with ones whole heart and with ones whole understanding and with ones whole strength and this loving ones neighbor as oneself is worth far more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 At this Jesus, discerning he had answered intelligently [answered with understanding, NAB and others], said to him: You are not far from the kingdom of God. (Mark 12:32-34)
We do not know for certain that that particular scribe became a Christian but for the sake of my questions to you we are going to assume that Jesus read his heart correctly and that he did. As a Christian, what God did he worship with all [his] understanding? What was his nature and name? Would he agree with you that it matters not which God you worship just as long as you are of good character? If he were here today would he think that someone of outstanding character that bows down in worship and prayer five times a day to a God named Allah was a fellow disciple of Jesus?
Legitimate question, let me let Paul answer it for you:NetDoc said:As long as it is of LOVE and not forbidden in the scriptures, then why not?
(1 Corinthians 6:12) All things are lawful for me; but not all things are advantageous. All things are lawful for me; but I will not let myself be brought under authority by anything.
(1 Corinthians 10:23) All things are lawful; but not all things are advantageous. All things are lawful; but not all things build up.
(Romans 6:14) For sin must not be master over you, seeing that you are not under law but under undeserved kindness.
(Romans 14:19) So, then, let us pursue the things making for peace and the things that are upbuilding to one another.
(Romans 15:2) Let each of us please [his] neighbor in what is good for [his] upbuilding.
In short, the answer is because doing so violates the second law and is a sure identifier of the many. By the same token not doing so is obeying both the first and the second law and is a sure identifier of the few. Oh yes it is harder to restrict ones religious beliefs to no more and no less than what the Bible says but it is a protection against becoming enslaved by your own desires, a desperate treacherous heart or other fallacious misleading thinking. Remember:
(1 Timothy 4:1-3) However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.
(2 Timothy 4:1-5) I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is destined to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his kingdom, 2 preach the word, be at it urgently in favorable season, in troublesome season, reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all long-suffering and [art of] teaching. {In many versions the word doctrine is used rather than teaching.} 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching {doctrine}, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, suffer evil, do [the] work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry. (Curly brackets are mine.)