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What do you say?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by HOGCALLER, Jun 13, 2006.

  1. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    NetDoc,

    It was not just a newfangled idea developed by first century Christians:

    (Genesis 3:24) And so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of E′den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life.
    (Deuteronomy 17:7) The hand of the witnesses first of all should come upon him to put him to death, and the hand of all the people afterward; and you must clear out what is bad from your midst.

    Unfortunately it has not been widely practiced since the first and second centuries. Also when it was properly practiced it led to a proliferation of “home churches”, many, many small break away groups, that left the true congregation and the true “teaching” and they all became part of, well, read it for yourself:

    (1 John 2:18-21) Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But [they went out] that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort. 20 And you have an anointing from the holy one; all of you have knowledge. 21 I write you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie originates with the truth.
    (Titus 3:10) As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition;
    (2 John 10) If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.

    Many so-called “good” and very sincere people are unknowing part of a group condemned in the Bible. On the other hand a very great number do know and this is what they do with that knowledge:

    (Matthew 23:13-15) “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. 14 —— 15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one you make him a subject for Ge·hen´na twice as much so as yourselves.

    What I am asking of you and any other reader is that we come up with a few ways to know for sure which group we are in. I am not interested in personal opinions so I ask these things be based on the Bible and that they be presented with scriptural references and explanations, fair enough?

    (Matthew 25:32-33) And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
    (Matthew 7:22-23) Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.
    (Matthew 7:13-20) Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. 15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those [men].

    In the past men have tended to form groups and even now men are forming into groups and those various groups then take on the characteristics of the men, therefore, just as men can be ‘recognized’ by their “fruits” so can groups made up of those men. That can even be applied to the two future groups who though not yet separated by Jesus are nonetheless separating themselves from each other.

    (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be´li·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I shall be a father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.”

    Many people are still searching while others just want to eliminate any eventuality but the better of the two, no matter, a list of those “fruits” will be useful to all. To me a list of negatives would be used to point out or at people/groups in a negative way; I am not interested in that. Also a list of the negatives would probably be never ending. A positive list does it the better way besides a list of the positives will be much shorter and more useful. Again, this is a list of ‘good fruit’ that will be found among the “sheep” and not found among the “goats”.

    NetDoc, based on what you have said so far you seem to have some good ideas along these lines. Would you mind sharing them with the rest of us in the form a list? Again, we are talking group and not individual so talking about what is in the heart is not going to apply very well to a group not to mention that we cannot read hearts. However, out of the heart come actions and claimed beliefs and other things that can be applied to groups.

    (Matthew 15:18-20) However, the things proceeding out of the mouth come out of the heart, and those things defile a man. 19 For example, out of the heart come wicked reasonings, murders, adulteries, fornications, thieveries, false testimonies, blasphemies. 20 These are the things defiling a man; but to take a meal with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

    Let me help you to understand what I mean by giving you a few examples from my list of what “fruits” I use to identify a group: (1) Its teachings are based firmly on the inspired Scriptures. (2) The true religion advocates worship of only the one true God, Jehovah. (3) A very important part of worship that is pleasing to God is faith in his Son, Jesus Christ.

    I could go on and I could provide scripture references and explanations but I did not because the title of this thread is, “What do you say?”, so what do you say should be on the list?
     
  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    So,

    let me ask a`question here before we continue:

    What (if anything) is the acid test for a disciple?
     
  3. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    NetDoc,

    On my way out the door, probably will be tied up till Monday, so no time to give an answer in my own words but here is a short article from a reference book I have on my computer:

    *** it-1 pp. 628-629 Disciple ***

    DISCIPLE

    A taught one, a learner, a pupil. The Hebrew word for a disciple (lim·mudh´) basically refers to one who learns, is taught, or is trained. (Compare Isa 8:16, ftn.) The related word mal·madh´ denotes a “goad” used to train cattle. (Jg 3:31; compare Ho 10:11.) The Greek word ma·the·tes´ (disciple) primarily denotes one who directs his mind to something.

    In the Greek Scriptures we read of disciples of Jesus, of John the Baptizer, of the Pharisees, and of Moses. (Mt 9:14; Lu 5:33; Joh 9:28) Jesus’ first disciples came from among the disciples of John. (Joh 1:35-42) The 12 chosen as apostles are called disciples at Matthew 10:1 and 11:1. In a wide sense the word “disciple” applied to those believing Jesus’ teaching, at least one of such being a secret disciple. (Lu 6:17; Joh 19:38) However, in the Gospel accounts it usually applies to the body of intimate followers of Jesus who traveled with him on his preaching tours and who were taught and instructed by him. The principal application of the term is to all those who not only believe Christ’s teachings but also follow them closely. They must be taught to “observe all the things” Jesus commands.—Mt 28:19, 20.

    Jesus’ purpose in teaching his disciples was to make them like himself, preachers and teachers of the good news of the Kingdom. “A pupil is not above his teacher, but everyone that is perfectly instructed will be like his teacher,” Jesus said. (Lu 6:40) The effectiveness of Christ’s teaching was proved by subsequent history. His disciples continued in the work he had taught them and made disciples throughout the Roman Empire, in Asia, Europe, and Africa, before the close of the first century. This was their principal work, in accord with Jesus Christ’s command at Matthew 28:19, 20.

    That Christians to this very day are obligated to make disciples of the people of the nations is made clear by the closing words of Jesus’ command: “And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” They are not making disciples for themselves, as those taught are really disciples of Jesus Christ, for it is the teaching, not of men, but of Christ, that they follow. For this reason the disciples were by divine providence called Christians. (Ac 11:26) Similarly, the prophet Isaiah had disciples but not for himself. Isaiah’s disciples knew Jehovah’s law, and with them the testimony of the law resided.—Isa 8:16.

    Being a disciple of Jesus is not the taking of a course of ease in life. Jesus did not please himself, but he followed a path that involved the greatest resistance from the Devil and his agents. (Ro 15:3) He said that his disciples must love him more than their closest relatives on earth and even more than their own souls. They must love their Christian fellow disciples. They must bear spiritual fruitage. A person who wants to be a disciple of Jesus has to take up his torture stake and follow the path that Christ traveled. In doing this, he will have to “say good-bye to all his belongings,” but he will receive many more valuable things now, with persecutions, and with everlasting life to come.—Lu 14:26, 27, 33; Joh 13:35; 15:8; Mr 10:29, 30; see CHRISTIAN.

    The brothers that are assigned to the local prison have asked me to correspond with certain prisoners who want to study the Bible but that are not in general population and so cannot attend the regular studies. It is very much a feast or famine deal sometimes with months passing before hearing back from them. Anyway, I am suddenly very busy so my replies will be somewhat slower in coming for a while. I just wanted you to know.
     
  4. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Those are all excellent points... but WHAT is the acid test of a disciple? What is the one thing that distinguishes a disciple of Jesus from everyone else.
     
  5. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    To me John 13;34, 35.

    But I beleive there is more than just one. In fact, Jesus himself mentioned more than one. I am still pressed for time but early next week we can get into it.
     
  6. Mystic-als

    Mystic-als Active Member

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    I think this is perfectly fine. Moses didn't have a bible or Abraham or .....
    But they are accounted in Hebrews for their faith. Their covenants with God were amongst the most influential in the entire history of the Jews. But... no bible. If you read what the bible says about God's Word. It is refering to the Christ. Not to the collection of books (bible). Jesus said that everything he does he first heard from the Father. Not everything he did he first read in the Synagogues library.
    Once again.... Stone away.
     
  7. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    OK, HC...

    I would ask you if you think there is any place in the scriptures that indicate that we can identify disciples by their doctrine or by any particular doctrine?

    In fact, you will find that all of the methods to Identify a disciple are based on character and character alone.

    Galations 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. NIV

    Why is this? Why wasn't a particular doctrine assigned to being a Christian?
     
  8. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    NetDoc,

    I am finally back and am working on a reply. "Talk" to you soon.
     
  9. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    No I do not think that there is only a “particular doctrine” that is, as you said earlier, “the acid test of a disciple.” But that does not change the fact that from beginning to end of the Bible there are such “tests” prescribed. It is not the passing of only one of those “tests” that proves what one is. It is the passing of most if not all of them that is required and that is the point of what I am saying in this thread. Is character involved? Yes absolutely, but it is far from the only thing involved which is what you seem to be saying.


    I cannot agree with that statement. Let me let John and Jesus to explain to you why that is:

    (2 John 4-11) I rejoice very much because I have found certain ones of your children walking in the truth, just as we received commandment from the Father. 5 So now I request you, lady, as [a person] writing you, not a new commandment, but one which we had from [the] beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is what love means, that we go on walking according to his commandments. This is the commandment, just as you people have heard from [the] beginning, that you should go on walking in it. 7 For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

    8 Look out for yourselves, that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. 9 Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.

    (1 John 2:26) These things I write you about those who are trying to mislead you.

    (Mark 13:22) For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones.

    (Revelation 2:14-16) 14 “‘Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, that you have there those holding fast the teaching of Ba´laam, who went teaching Ba´lak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication. 15 So you, also, have those holding fast the teaching of the sect of Nic·o·la´us likewise. 16 Therefore repent. If you do not, I am coming to you quickly, and I will war with them with the long sword of my mouth.

    (Revelation 2:18-25) “And to the angel of the congregation in Thy·a·ti´ra write: These are the things that the Son of God says, he who has his eyes like a fiery flame, and his feet are like fine copper, 19 ‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and ministry and endurance, and that your deeds of late are more than those formerly. 20 “‘Nevertheless, I do hold [this] against you, that you tolerate that woman Jez´e·bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of her fornication. 22 Look! I am about to throw her into a sickbed, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 23 And her children I will kill with deadly plague, so that all the congregations will know that I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds. 24 “‘However, I say to the rest of you who are in Thy·a·ti´ra, all those who do not have this teaching, the very ones who did not get to know the “deep things of Satan,” as they say: I am not putting upon you any other burden. 25 Just the same, hold fast what you have until I come.

    Obviously “teachings” and necessarily the beliefs based on those “teachings” matter and count for and against us!! According to the above and many others also there are definitely acceptable and unacceptable “teachings”!!

    If what you seem to be saying is the truth of the matter then how is it possible to be misled? Do not most people claim that there are persons of outstanding character in any and all religions and churches; do you say that they are Jesus’ disciples regardless of what they believe and “based on character and character alone”?

    If I understand your point correctly, a person can believe anything he wants as long as he maintains a “good” character and still be identified as a disciple of Jesus. I am sorry to be the one to tell you but it ain’t so!! Why it is that Jesus and the apostles almost always say that we will be judged based on our “deeds” and that those deeds are tied to obeying commandments rather than “based on character and character alone” as you say?

    (John 4:16-24) He said to her: “Go, call your husband and come to this place.” 17 In answer the woman said: “I do not have a husband.” Jesus said to her: “You said well, ‘A husband I do not have.’ 18 For you have had five husbands, and the [man] you now have is not your husband. This you have said truthfully.” 19 The woman said to him: “Sir, I perceive you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshiped in this mountain; but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where persons ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you people worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth

    If character is the only or even the main thing which counts then why did Jesus preach to this woman who he knew was of low character due to her living in sin? If only character counts then why did he straighten out her thinking about where and how “true worshipers” worship? Can you please explain that to me?

    Why did Jesus choose to qualify “worshipers” with the term “true” unless there are in fact true and false worshipers? Finally, how many different ways can be “true” and “truth”?

    So the answer to your first question is YES “we can identify disciples by their doctrine” but not just by one doctrine particular doctrine but rather it takes most if not all of their doctrine along with several other things also to concretely nail down that an individual or a group is a “true” and not a false one.

    What do you say, would you like to explore some of the other things, in addition to character, that are involved in making an accurate identification?
     
  10. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Hmnnn... Jesus pointed out that we would know the disciples by their fruit...

    Matthew 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
    21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' NIV

    Now, we have read what the fruits of the Spirit are. We have Jesus' promise that this is how we will ascertain who is telling the truth. You see, there is NO WAY that doctrine can save you UNLESS it changes your heart. Doctrine is external... these fruits are internal.


    Here is an example of people who followed the EXTERNAL DOCTRINE really well, but it never changed their hearts:

    Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
    44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
    45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
    46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." NIV
     
  11. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    NetDoc,

    As before, we may again be in agreement but just not understanding that we are. Let’s see!

    Will you please answer the following question:


    If teachings or doctrines do not matter or count for anything then why did God have Paul warn against them even enumerating some of them?

    (1 Timothy 4:1-3) However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.

    Paul is not referring to the Jews and the dietary regulations of the Mosaic Law. He was talking about those that would apostatize from true Christianity and he does not identify them by their character only but also by their doctrines. God had Paul include doctrines in this warning because beliefs and doctrines still count with Him just as they did way back with Cain and Abel.
     
  12. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Christianity is predicated on but two laws:

    Love God.

    Love everyone else.

    Adding anything else to these is apostasy.
     
  13. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    NetDoc,

    Now you’ve done it—you went and confused me by contradicting yourself!

    First, your last statement is adding “anything”/something and therefore, by your own definition, is apostasy. Second, where is your Scriptural support for that statement?

    Do not most people claim that there are persons of outstanding character in any and all religions and churches; do you say that they are Jesus’ disciples regardless of what they believe and “based on character and character alone”?

    Will you please answer my questions?!
     
  14. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Jesus himself gave us the two laws. We would do well to heed his words. Man always tries to gild the lilly and so we have a littany of "laws" and such.

    Jesus said indicated that MANY who thought they were condemned would be saved and that many who thought they were saved were in actuality condemned. "Whatever you did to the least of these, my brothers, you did also for me." It was his way of saying WALK THE WALK, just don't talk it.
     
  15. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    NetDoc,

    It is obvious that you are not going to answer my questions and that means our discussion is over. I wish it were otherwise. Let me thank you for your thoughts and input. I certainly hope you enjoyed our discussion as much as I did.

    Let me leave you with these thoughts:

    Just as there are sure ways to identify the “many” so there are equally sure ways to identify the “few.”

    If “anything” to do with beliefs, teachings and doctrines are apostasy then almost every person used to write the letters of the New Testament was an apostate and so am I. We both know that is not true! Refusing to discuss what they say is tantamount to doing what Paul prophesied about at 2 Timothy 4:3, NIV: “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.” The situation we see in Christendom today is fulfilling that prophecy and flies in the face of Jesus description of his true followers found in his prayer to his God and Father recorded at John 17. (Please compare John 17:11 to Exodus 23:20-25, Isaiah 63:8-14, follow this link and scroll down to Isaiah 63:12, Isaiah 52:10; Isaiah 53:1-12, John 12:38-41 and finally John 17:5 & 20-26.)

    Perhaps, hopefully, in the future you will want to discuss what Jesus meant when he said: “Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.” (Luke 6:26) Perhaps, hopefully, in the future you will want to discuss how to identify Christ’s true “brothers;” Please pray for me as I do for you.
     
  16. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Maybe I don't understand your question. Maybe you just don't accept my answer?

    If you read the Scriptures, Jesus rarely answered a question "directly", and often I am guilty of also trying to get people to think. It surely was not meant to offend.

    Love is an invasive act. If you truly love someone, they will either accept it or get pretty angry about it.
     
  17. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    What is it that you do not understand? I will be more than happy to explain it!


    Please repeat your answer to my repeated question. I am suffering from the delusion that you did not give me an answer to the question that I repeated. I certainly do not want to accuse you of what is not so. Therefore, will you please repeat your answer to that question?

    If I in someway sounded as though I am angry with you, or anyone else for that matter, I apologize. That is a failing of mine. I am seldom angry with anyone but I do often sound that way even when I am trying hard not to. I very well understand that people can mistake true love (tough love so to speak) for being forced or pressured and for rigidity or dogmatism and for harshness or meanness. Oh if I could just be more like Jesus. But the majority did not listen to him either, even after seeing all his deeds and works.
     
  18. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Try rephrasing your question for me. Perhaps that is all that is needed?

     
  19. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    NetDoc,

    Your original statement that prompted my question was this:


    Per 1 John 4:1 I test things out to see if they have the ring of truth. In thinking about and testing out your statement I found problems with it and I stated such to you and then provided scriptures to explain what my problem with that statement is.

    Each of those scriptures dealt with some aspect or facet showing that more than “character and character alone” is involved. There are warnings given, not about character, but about “teachings.” There is the mention of the following or obeying of commandments and scriptures that show beliefs, teachings, doctrines, etc. to be identifiers.

    But, as you point out and has been the case in the past, those problems of mine with your statement could be just my misunderstanding of what you were really saying and meaning. Therefore I asked you questions to clarify in my mind exactly what you meant. Let me restate with some clarifications what I said and was thinking that led up to me posing that question.

    Again, to me, your statement is saying, “It does not matter what you believe because the only thing that counts for or against you is your character and your character alone.” Therefore I asked you this question: “If what you seem to be saying is the truth of the matter then how is it possible to be misled?” If beliefs, teachings and doctrines do not count for or against you, then it necessarily must be impossible to be misled because anything goes! That then leads to my next question: “Do not most people claim that there are persons of outstanding character in any and all religions and churches; do you say that they are Jesus’ disciples regardless of what they believe and “based on character and character alone”?” That question was followed up by stating: “If I understand your point correctly, a person can believe anything he wants as long as he maintains a “good” character and still be identified as a disciple of Jesus.”

    Again I ask, is my understanding correct? Are you saying “that they are Jesus’ disciples regardless of what they believe and “based on character and character alone”?” Can a person believe anything he wants as long as he maintains a “good” character and still be identified as a disciple of Jesus?

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  20. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
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    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    They are Jesus' disciples precisely by what they believe. Jesus taught LOVE above all things. The disciples were slow to pick up on this.However, Jesus dealt with the character and all else was straightened out in the process.
    As long as it is of LOVE and not forbidden in the scriptures, then why not? Only the GOOD TREE can bear GOOD FRUIT. Or don't you believe this?
     
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