What do you get from your Religion?

[Nimos]

Capitalism creates greed and we see it running rampant in democratic nations.

If I understood you correctly, what you say is that capitalism creates greed and selfishness, which corrupt democratic nations. So if capitalism is the issue or a huge part of it, do you believe that humans selfishness could be reduced or nearly removed, if we got rid of capitalism?

 

[MikeDwight]

Don't you have to believe in Greater than yourself to be a religion? I think that can be bad sometimes! I like the occasional consumer, the occasional hedonist. But, don't you have a Religion with an Authority that Can be a King of Israel, a King of Kings is the Basileus of Byzantium. I think Churches are in a strange place today. Its what you get from government, etc, order, regulation.

 

[osgart]

My religion is self created. It gives me hope of the eternal. It goes in contrast to materialism. It sits in all the gaps in human knowledge. It springs from the subjective experience. It reaches for the divine.

It relieves me from the doldrums in this age of materialism. Those whom love life seek after the eternal. Those content to live life as it passes by are happy with its end. I was never happy at a life's final end. So I give myself reasons to see life as eternal. All my reasons spring from the subjective. Basically the more I study physicalism the more it sounds like gobbledygook with a lot of technical babble jargon that makes absolutely no sense to my experience of life.

My religion convinces me that the scholars of the world are vainly deluded in their approach to the ultimate questions. I find it extremely conceited that intellectual descriptions of consciousness think they can explain reality with such contrived language.
I side with my intuitions over all that seem so stuff.

 

[Deeje]

If I understood you correctly, what you say is that capitalism creates greed and selfishness, which corrupt democratic nations. So if capitalism is the issue or a huge part of it, do you believe that humans selfishness could be reduced or nearly removed, if we got rid of capitalism?

No...it goes much deeper than that.

Take Communism for example....the polar opposite of capitalism.
It sounds good in theory because there is a sharing of everything with everyone. But when you take away personal freedom and impose a system on people against their will, problems will inevitably arise. If everyone is supposed to get an equal share, then it is assumed that all would have to put in equal effort. But the lazy ones had no incentive to work hard because they got the same as everyone who did. This in turn causes resentment when the hardworking few have to carry the load of the lazy ones. Human selfishness again ruins what could have been a very equitable system.

You see, it's how we view our activities in how they impact on others, and on our planet. No matter what system you live under, human rulership is always doomed to fail because of the very nature of the imperfect humans running it.

Wealth and power corrupt us, and poverty can make desperate people do desperate things.....which is why the Bible says...."give me neither poverty nor riches"....each has a bad effect on us.

It is said that we should practice "contentment"....IOW, 'wanting what you have, instead of having what you want'.
In a commercially greedy world, people are taught that "things" (material possessions) make you happy. Yet even the rich feel the emptiness of chasing more and more material things whilst true happiness eludes them. It's why many turn to drugs....an artificial "feel good".

Money never makes anyone happy.....and poverty doesn't either.
The Bible says that "there is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving" so there is the problem.....we are not taught to be givers....only takers, and then we wonder why our lives are devoid of true contentment.

A good religion brings us close to God and teaches us to be generous givers, like he is. But at the same time, religion should not be merely charity based because all that does is breed a "hand out" mentality. The Bible teaches self sufficiency so that a "hand up" will lead to that person to becoming self sufficient, and being able to help the next person to also achieve self sufficiency.

 

[Nimos]

Take Communism for example....the polar opposite of capitalism.
It sounds good in theory because there is a sharing of everything with everyone. But when you take away personal freedom and impose a system on people against their will, problems will inevitably arise. If everyone is supposed to get an equal share, then it is assumed that all would have to put in equal effort. But the lazy ones had no incentive to work hard because they got the same as everyone who did. This in turn causes resentment when the hardworking few have to carry the load of the lazy ones. Human selfishness again ruins what could have been a very equitable system.

You could go with socialism? And just to clarify, neither communism or socialism is about equally sharing everything with everyone. When you take something from someone with force they are bound to be upset, it was exactly what happened when capitalism were introduced. And the same when "communism" were it in the Soviet union.

Money never makes anyone happy.....and poverty doesn't either.

So you seem to indicate that money and sharing of wealth is an issue, which is basically linked to what you can buy with money right. Money I guess could be said to give you freedom? But at the same time it can make people slaves if they don't have enough. Which could explain why people in certain situation could behave in selfish ways to improve their own freedom, would you agree with that? So if we could get rid of money or distribute them more equally among people, do you think that would reduce the selfishness of people?

 

[MikeDwight]

I used to think about this all the time! Does Church like Capitalism?! I don't know. If Christ was its own highlight of society then that's the word for it. Does anyone else want to see (Joffrey Ballet recreation) Stravinsky's Rite of Spring ? It is from the White Army period of Christians having to fight the new Communists. I mean, the 800 year old Christians don't know what Communism looks like. Woodrow Wilson said maybe finally Russia has Native Governance. I think that is So funny a line from a Confederate.

So Stravinsky Prays over the outcome of this work for his Nation, I have seen this in multiple sources, which didn't go that well but we remember it. So the Russians particularly would have Holy Mysteries, that is a Rite, the Rite of Marriage particularly for the Russians is what he'd mean by Rite. So , he and this piece during the Civil War , what ultimately would make communists forever hate religion, right? Check out Farewell to Slavianka from the White Army. We can see how Russia and Rus' in its darkness in 1000 AD, in their tents, knowing nobody and nothing and no education before the Byzantines, come out in spring, for silly Pagan superstitions, and they all come together for the Rite of a young woman dancing to death, it is the first horror film ever, and we will thank the Communists for this. So we Christians have something to think besides Capitalism vs Communism!

 

[Desert Snake]

Don't you have to believe in Greater than yourself to be a religion? I think that can be bad sometimes! I like the occasional consumer, the occasional hedonist. But, don't you have a Religion with an Authority that Can be a King of Israel, a King of Kings is the Basileus of Byzantium. I think Churches are in a strange place today. Its what you get from government, etc, order, regulation.

The general problem with many churches is that they mix n match ideas that don't go together. Therefore when presented, you get a nonsensical hodge podge mess of ideas that don't match scripture.

Seems to be the common problem

 

[viole]

This is not meant to be about faith or truth of religion or stuff like that.

But would like to hear from a personal point of view what people get from their religion.

1. What does your religion give you in terms of positive values in your life? Do you think it makes you a better person than you could be without it? So basically just thoughts about what you get from your belief.

2. Do you think that there are any negative things about your religion, which you think limit you or restrict you or make you behave in ways which you have a hard time accepting? and so on.

A Christian once told me I do not believe in another God because I am my own God. Which, considering the look and the intelligence, might be true.

So, my religion gives me a lot of self confidence.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Muffled]

This is not meant to be about faith or truth of religion or stuff like that.

But would like to hear from a personal point of view what people get from their religion.

1. What does your religion give you in terms of positive values in your life? Do you think it makes you a better person than you could be without it? So basically just thoughts about what you get from your belief.

2. Do you think that there are any negative things about your religion, which you think limit you or restrict you or make you behave in ways which you have a hard time accepting? and so on.

I believe I receive peace, love and joy among other things and freedom from Sin and a promise of everlasting life without the presence of evil.

 

[Muffled]

I have philosophical questions and religions give me answers.

I believe when I was a youth I had a philosophy that if death meant that I no longer existed that my troubles would be over. Later in life I found out that death wasn't the end so I had to find another way to eliminate my troubles.

 

[Muffled]

In my religion we let negative things like suffering and evil turn into nothingnes. I have a saying "believe in yes," if you catch my drift...

I can imagine the smile on your face as a truck runs over your foot because it never happened, lol.

 

[MikeDwight]

All 3 posts , end up like Muffled had a troubled childhood. Did anyone find Philosophy Intro disappointing? Back to Humans, Where do They Come Up with This Stuff?! Don't talk about religion. Is anyone else disappointed there was basically two things, a summation of happiness, and maximizing happiness in utilitarianism? Utilitarianism...

 

[Deeje]

You could go with socialism? And just to clarify, neither communism or socialism is about equally sharing everything with everyone. When you take something from someone with force they are bound to be upset, it was exactly what happened when capitalism were introduced. And the same when "communism" were it in the Soviet union.

It really wouldn't matter what system of governance humans try....it will fail because of the one component that destroys every attempt....corruption. "Power corrupts" as we all know. It is not possible for humans with power to stay humble and to continue to put the interests of the people before their own. Self interest always takes over. The reason, I believe, is that we are not designed to rule ourselves....we are designed to be ruled by one who is incorruptible....our Creator who knows us better than we know ourselves. If we had simply stayed with God and followed his directions, none of us would ever have been subjected to the atrocities that accompany abuse of power, especially in war.

So you seem to indicate that money and sharing of wealth is an issue, which is basically linked to what you can buy with money right. Money I guess could be said to give you freedom? But at the same time it can make people slaves if they don't have enough. Which could explain why people in certain situation could behave in selfish ways to improve their own freedom, would you agree with that?

To a degree, yes. If we all shared what we have, no one would be starving or homeless. The western world throws away enough food to feed all the starving children of this world.

If we stopped spending so much money on killing people and instead used it to save them, wouldn't that be preferable to what we have now? War is ridiculous! What does it accomplish? In the 60's (Vietnam war era) there was an anti-war slogan that said...."what if we were invited to a war and nobody came?"
A singer named Donovan released a song called "The Universal Soldier" and suggested that if it wasn't for soldiers, wars could not be fought.

Imagine if all the soldiers just laid down their weapons and refused to kill anymore? World leaders would just have to fight it out in a room together. If war wasn't an option, then they would just have to work it out....could you ever see that happening? Humans are too strongly entrenched in their power struggles.

So if we could get rid of money or distribute them more equally among people, do you think that would reduce the selfishness of people?

Because we seem to be taught from infancy to see wealth and power as desirable and as an indication of success in life, we would have to re-educate those mindsets. Like racism, it's hard to eliminate it if some still harbour that attitude. Supremacy of race, wealth or intelligence seems to dominate regardless of the obvious downsides. There has always been a "them and us" mentality. It applies across the board.

It is why neither wealth nor poverty are ideal circumstances for any humans. Either of those opposites will bring out the worst in people. Seeing the wealthy squander their money on mansions, cars, private jets and other expensive toys whilst other try to eke out a life in abject poverty, sleeping on the streets, not knowing where their next meal is coming from, seems to indicate a complete lack of compassion for those who would appreciate a hand up, rather than a hand out.

In these tough economic times, people with money feel confident in their wealth....but if the economy collapses, their money will become devalued and they will find themselves in their own definition of poverty. You can't eat money.

As I see it, God has the solution and we are nearing the end of an exercise that will change the way humans live on this planet forever.

 

[Nimos]

It really wouldn't matter what system of governance humans try....it will fail because of the one component that destroys every attempt....corruption. "Power corrupts" as we all know. It is not possible for humans with power to stay humble and to continue to put the interests of the people before their own. Self interest always takes over. The reason, I believe, is that we are not designed to rule ourselves....we are designed to be ruled by one who is incorruptible....our Creator who knows us better than we know ourselves. If we had simply stayed with God and followed his directions, none of us would ever have been subjected to the atrocities that accompany abuse of power, especially in war............

I agree in large with what you are saying here.. But most people are not born rich, so if wealth make people behave in such way, meaning selfish and power seeking etc. as a result of it. Then anyone could end up behaving as them correct?

So imagine we removed their wealth, so they were like us "normal" people, do you still think these people would behave like they do or do you think they would behave more like those without money that can't buy influence and power? or said in another way, do you think they would behave as they do, if they had never gotten their wealth?

 

[Deeje]

I agree in large with what you are saying here.. But most people are not born rich, so if wealth make people behave in such way, meaning selfish and power seeking etc. as a result of it. Then anyone could end up behaving as them correct?

No, not just wealth itself, but the desire for it and the "dog eat dog" attitude some people have in attaining it can be just as consuming. The Bible puts it this way...."the love of money is the root of all evil"....so not money per se, but for the love of it and what it can buy, people will even commit theft, fraud, extortion or even murder.

So imagine we removed their wealth, so they were like us "normal" people, do you still think these people would behave like they do or do you think they would behave more like those without money that can't buy influence and power? or said in another way, do you think they would behave as they do, if they had never gotten their wealth?

What do you think it would take to re-educate humans to drop this ongoing love affair with money and desire for power?....to not view wealth and power over others as desirable and financially advantageous?

In all of our history, we see people abusing their power and flaunting their wealth as if to rub the noses of others less fortunate, in their success. I truly believe that only God can fix what is wrong with us and it is going to take something drastic to accomplish it, according to the Bible. I personally can't wait to get on the other side of that, because I see a bright future only after a necessary 'intervention'.

 

[Nimos]

No, not just wealth itself, but the desire for it and the "dog eat dog" attitude some people have in attaining it can be just as consuming. The Bible puts it this way...."the love of money is the root of all evil"....so not money per se, but for the love of it and what it can buy, people will even commit theft, fraud, extortion or even murder.



What do you think it would take to re-educate humans to drop this ongoing love affair with money and desire for power?....to not view wealth and power over others as desirable and financially advantageous?

In all of our history, we see people abusing their power and flaunting their wealth as if to rub the noses of others less fortunate, in their success. I truly believe that only God can fix what is wrong with us and it is going to take something drastic to accomplish it, according to the Bible. I personally can't wait to get on the other side of that, because I see a bright future only after a necessary 'intervention'.

Do you think that its our way of living that "teaches" people to desire wealth and power or are people born like that, I don't think I really got that?

Because if people are taught to behave this way, whether that is directly or indirectly then wouldn't you agree that it could be changed if they were taught differently, because not all people desire power or even money other than what is enough to make them live a decent life?

 

[syo]

I believe when I was a youth I had a philosophy that if death meant that I no longer existed that my troubles would be over. Later in life I found out that death wasn't the end so I had to find another way to eliminate my troubles.

ah I see. it is up to us to solve our troubles. it's not bad that we have troubles, and solving them makes something beautiful. A solved trouble brings inner peace. i suffer from a mental illness and i keep struggling and whenever i do sth good, i feel positive.

 

[firedragon]

This is not meant to be about faith or truth of religion or stuff like that.

But would like to hear from a personal point of view what people get from their religion.

1. What does your religion give you in terms of positive values in your life? Do you think it makes you a better person than you could be without it? So basically just thoughts about what you get from your belief.

2. Do you think that there are any negative things about your religion, which you think limit you or restrict you or make you behave in ways which you have a hard time accepting? and so on.

1. Positive values - Respect and loyalty to relationships, marriage, business, employers and employees, society at large.
Yes I believe I am a better person because of it over without it.

2. Nothing.

Great questions and I can see your humility in getting peoples views. I just think that you should know there are many many facets of religion. First the number of religions and then the factions within them. Then you get personal interpretations of each of them. So you not knowing where one person may fit I find the questions just to general. But its your prerogative.

Cheers.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This is not meant to be about faith or truth of religion or stuff like that.

But would like to hear from a personal point of view what people get from their religion.

1. What does your religion give you in terms of positive values in your life? Do you think it makes you a better person than you could be without it? So basically just thoughts about what you get from your belief.

2. Do you think that there are any negative things about your religion, which you think limit you or restrict you or make you behave in ways which you have a hard time accepting? and so on.

The number one thing I get from my religion is a sense of meaning in life. Because there is a God, there is a reason for everything. And everything has a kind of essence that it would otherwise not have, if I could use a metaphor -- color rather than black and white, music rather than monotone, three dimensions rather than two... There is simply a QUALITY to life that is missing if there were no God. Judaism is the lattice that my monotheism hangs upon.

But lets talk about that lattice. I don't think its the only lattice. But it's MY lattice. It contains the histories and legends and myths, the rites and rituals and life events, and the people, who bring me closer to my God. They are all like reference points, reminders, little arrows that point the way for me. They keep me on the path.

Yes, Judaism provides me with my values. For example, I think all children tend to have an attitude of entitlement -- I imagine I would have been quite the cheat and thief had "Thou shalt not steal" not been drilled into me. On a more adult level, I see in Torah all the laws protecting the poor, laws incumbent on Jewish society. This was to be the ideal society, the society that God brought into existence. And so I ask myself, in what practical ways can I apply these ideals to my own democratic society? How can I help the poor here in similar ways, adjusted for our own culture and economy? You get the idea.

What I appreciate most about my religion is its emphasis on behavior. Sure there is kavanah -- sincere heart. But in the end, you can have all the right intentions and do the wrong thing. I'd rather have someone do the right thing for the wrong reasons than do the wrong thing with good intentions. If I were starving, I wouldn't care WHY someone was feeding me dinner. I'd just be grateful for the food. Some religions are all about belief, belief, belief. Judaism is down where the rubber meets the road. Love isn't a feeling, its actions of love. We start with the right actions FIRST, and then work our way up the ladder to a sincere heart.

As far as negative effects, no. But I think that has to do with me being just a Jew. I tend to be more on the conservative side, but I'm not actually attached to that denomination. I take some from the Orthodox, and some from the Reform as well. I feel at home in any Jewish prayer service. The things one group is into that I'm not, that's fine for them but not for me, I just think. I'm basically happy wherever I go.

It also has to do with the openness of Judaism. They say two Jews, three opinions. The Rabbis I've studied with have never minded that I've disagreed. We argue, and then we go out to lunch.

Thirdly, when I was Orthodox, the group which had the most observances I had problems with, my attitude was that it was fine to disagree, but I should go along with the community for the sake of being with the community. After all, it's not like it hurt me to do so.

I'm going to absolutely butcher this story -- maybe Rabbi O can help me out here. I was told this story so long ago that I know I've forgotten large chunks of it.

There was a famous Rabbi (Rashi's grandson???) who argued that everyone was getting it wrong. When it says "Thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thy hand, and they shall be for frontlets between thine eyes" it's not talking about making these little boxes with Torah scrolls inside, he said. It means to observe the Law with the all our strength and to understand it with our intellect. Yet despite his opinion, this Rabbi became an expert at making Tefillin (the little boxes with the Torah scrolls inside). Why? Because we don't as Jews act as individuals. It's not what my opinion is and what your opinion is, it's what Israel does as a community, and the community made Tefillin. (Today we know he was right of course, although we still make Tefillin as well.)

This Rabbi's willingness to both think for himself and also go along with community standards is my standard to follow. He is, basically, my mentor.

You can see how approaching things with this sort of attitude will always leave me feeling free and happy.