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What do you get from discussion/debate

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Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Quran says not to argue with the people of the book except by which is best. This means good manners but also your content should have value and be proofs, do it in a kind and eloquent way as well. It shouldn't be mindless bickering.

Ultimately, we believe in holy books of the past, just believe some corruptions, but over all it's an interpretation thing.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
When someone "wins" a debate, they are better at arguing, not more correct in their views. I find often times that the real value to be gleaned from a debate is in tertiary points or in the ways people answer rather than the main points made themselves. Often times the real value learned even exists independently of the argument altogether.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Sufism is the only path that comes close to my form of Tantra, so I'm glad you are still here for a while more at least. I wish there were more sufi's here.

I just enjoy reading about other people's paths and I'm still amazed at how comparatively different but sometimes also similar some of them think compared to my own way of thinking.
Perhaps I'm presently the only person on the forum who received tantric diikshá.

I suppose comparing my ideas with those of others gives me better sense of in which position my path stands and in which ways it is unique or similar.
Oh i will stay in RF :) its a very good place to be :)
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Debate and discussion hones the edge of your own arguments and ability to defend your positions and bolster their weak points. It also fosters the ability to understand what to challenge others on when they bring something to the table as a "truth". I feel this is important, as there shouldn't be grand and sweeping proclamations of "truth" made that others just accept without keen investigation and comparison of said "truth" to the reality they experience. One of the things that I feel most gets us as humans in trouble is people's propensity to think they "know best." And if making sweeping indications or implications of what is "the truth" isn't someone displaying that they think they know best, then I don't know what is.

I know, at times, it may seem that I think I "know best" - but at any given moment, it is more likely that I am just trying to get others to rethink their own positions, based on evidence and thoughts that show their own to be lacking. Anyone can call me out, at any time, and I will either explain myself or admit that whatever they have me pinned for is exactly what I was doing.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I been thinking and I have to be honest and say I can not see anymore value of discussion or especially debate that is between people from different faith, where one person try to disprove or debunk the other persons faith or religious belief.

Is it difficult to accept that people are different and believe differently that our own belief?

I believe in acceptance of other people who believe different than me.

Haha. Brother, there was one guy in our forum whose uninformed suggestion turned into a Phd thesis topic. No joke.

So if you look, there is a lot to gain
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Debate and discussion hones the edge of your own arguments and ability to defend your positions and bolster their weak points. It also fosters the ability to understand what to challenge others on when they bring something to the table as a "truth". I feel this is important, as there shouldn't be grand and sweeping proclamations of "truth" made that others just accept without keen investigation and comparison of said "truth" to the reality they experience. One of the things that I feel most gets us as humans in trouble is people's propensity to think they "know best." And if making sweeping indications or implications of what is "the truth" isn't someone displaying that they think they know best, then I don't know what is.

I know, at times, it may seem that I think I "know best" - but at any given moment, it is more likely that I am just trying to get others to rethink their own positions, based on evidence and thoughts that show their own to be lacking. Anyone can call me out, at any time, and I will either explain myself or admit that whatever they have me pinned for is exactly what I was doing.
I believe it is what you speak of here what I personally do not see a value in. No need to tell others they believe wrong or that my belief is better or more correct.
I believe what i believe, others are free to believe what they do. It does not bother me
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
As a sufi, my path is to fix my own fault and shortcomings first, not to correct other people from different religious or spiritual paths to what I "want" them to believe, so discussion and especially debate is more and more not needed when it comes to discussion or debate with people of different faith.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I believe it is what you speak of here what I personally do not see a value in. No need to tell others they believe wrong or that my belief is better or more correct.
I believe what i believe, others are free to believe what they do. It does not bother me
Once again, I most often offer no competing ideology or anything to put "belief" in. I am not saying "what I believe is better" - not at all. I look at the others' beliefs, and I if see holes in them, then I explain to the person the thing that makes that hole stand out for me. If they are interested in convincing me of the "truth" of their claims, then they had better plug the hole sufficiently. If they can't, then I am going to simply shake my head at them and move on.

If they aren't interested in convincing me, then I probably haven't even heard from them to begin with. What is there to challenge if I don't even know what they believe? There is nothing. Hence the reason ANYONE gets challenged... because they brought something with holes in it to the table and wanted to pretend it had all the hallmarks of "being true." If beliefs of the kind that have only poor evidence as their defense were simply kept (as personal "secrets") by the people who hold them, then no one would ever challenge them. Seriously - think about that. If you didn't bring your beliefs forward to a person who might not believe them and therefore challenge them, then who would challenge? None. There would be none to do so. Apparently it is very very important for people who hold these kinds of beliefs to seek approval and validation of them. That, however, is NOT my problem.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
As a sufi, my path is to fix my own fault and shortcomings first, not to correct other people from different religious or spiritual paths to what I "want" them to believe, so discussion and especially debate is more and more not needed when it comes to discussion or debate with people of different faith.

Thats all great, but I think you either mistook what I said or are responding to the wrong post brother. Im sorry I participated.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
I been thinking and I have to be honest and say I can not see anymore value of discussion or especially debate that is between people from different faith, where one person try to disprove or debunk the other persons faith or religious belief.

Is it difficult to accept that people are different and believe differently that our own belief?

I believe in acceptance of other people who believe different than me.
To me, it's better that others don't all think alike, because without the diversity -- that no 2 people see anything precisely the same way -- we'd not be unique and not have the good that comes from these all the wonderful variety of human personality flavors.

Ideally, if people could listen to each other (more than just a few select friends), they can have less debate and more discussion.

Maybe the main barrier to that fruitful discussion is that people are often told that other groups (diverse individuals that in reality don't all think the same and the grouping is just an illusion) are bad people, supporting something harmful.

If one believes the illusion that a grouping of people are all pushing a harmful agenda, then one feels justified in attacking them.

That endless smearing of groups, that happens a lot here on RF, but also on other forums -- demonizing groups of people -- seems a part of human evil that's hard to get past.

What can we do?

I think it's helpful to try to correct the falsehoods (smears of groups). But I don't come here first or mostly to try to find smears to correct, which can be a lot like mopping a floor in a large building.

Instead, I mostly visit just looking for the chance of good discussion.

But it does happen that slanders and attacks on groups get the most attention here, and also it feels necessary to try to counter them just like it's necessary to have firefighters fight fire inside cities.

So, the level of discussion is often very low here.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
I been thinking and I have to be honest and say I can not see anymore value of discussion or especially debate that is between people from different faith, where one person try to disprove or debunk the other persons faith or religious belief.

Is it difficult to accept that people are different and believe differently that our own belief?

I believe in acceptance of other people who believe different than me.
I just like to argue. And My wife doesn't, so...
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Maybe the main barrier to that fruitful discussion is that people are often told that other groups (diverse individuals that in reality don't all think the same and the grouping is just an illusion) are bad people, supporting something harmful.

If one believes the illusion that a grouping of people are all pushing a harmful agenda, then one feels justified in attacking them.

That endless smearing of groups, that happens a lot here on RF, but also on other forums -- demonizing groups of people -- seems a part of human evil that's hard to get past.
It does happen also in seemingly subtle ways, sometimes openly hostile or aggressive.
But I've seen the same happen much more on other religious forums that weren't even American.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I been thinking and I have to be honest and say I can not see anymore value of discussion or especially debate that is between people from different faith, where one person try to disprove or debunk the other persons faith or religious belief.

Is it difficult to accept that people are different and believe differently that our own belief?

I believe in acceptance of other people who believe different than me.
If I am not discussing or debating, I won't be motivated to investigate or do research on a topic other than my (quite academically demanding) job related subjects. I also get first hand info on views of quite a diverse and international group here. So I like being here.
Also I do not have to post likes whenever somebody I know posts a cat or birthday video (like in facebook).
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I been thinking and I have to be honest and say I can not see anymore value of discussion or especially debate that is between people from different faith, where one person try to disprove or debunk the other persons faith or religious belief.

Is it difficult to accept that people are different and believe differently that our own belief?

I believe in acceptance of other people who believe different than me.
Many of us would accept such if the beliefs of others didn't impact on our lives or that of others (often negatively), but unfortunately they so often do, and is why so many of us feel the need to open our big mouths. Plus, we often enjoy all the rest that follows. :D
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Many of us would accept such if the beliefs of others didn't impact on our lives or that of others (often negatively), but unfortunately they so often do, and is why so many of us feel the need to open our big mouths. Plus, we often enjoy all the rest that follows. :D
I can understand you reacting to example extremists who do evil, and still claim it is teaching of a religion, I do react to that still too.
 
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