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What do we know (or think we know) about Goshen?

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
It seems to be some sort of suburb of/in Egypt that was given to the Jews.
Rashi, if I'm not mistaken, says Yehuda was sent before the rest of the 70 people to open a beit midrash there (Yeshivat Goshen?)...
It had plenty of grassy areas - it was given to Yaakov and his family because it was a good place to raise flocks of sheep and such.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Any insights?

The word Goshen ( or some variant ) appears to occur ( when I searched on it ) 15 times:

B'reisheis 45:10 46:28 ( 2 times ) 46:29 46:34 47:1 47:4 47:6 47:27 50:8
Shemos 8:22 9:26
Yehoshua 10:41 11:16 15:51

this is where I will begin the hunt for "insights".
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
It seems to be some sort of suburb of/in Egypt that was given to the Jews.
Rashi, if I'm not mistaken, says Yehuda was sent before the rest of the 70 people to open a beit midrash there (Yeshivat Goshen?)...
It had plenty of grassy areas - it was given to Yaakov and his family because it was a good place to raise flocks of sheep and such.

That depends on who you might by "we" and what you're referring to by "know". For you, I'd guess that this is what you're looking for.
Land of Goshen - Wikipedia

The word Goshen ( or some variant ) appears to occur ( when I searched on it ) 15 times:

B'reisheis 45:10 46:28 ( 2 times ) 46:29 46:34 47:1 47:4 47:6 47:27 50:8
Shemos 8:22 9:26
Yehoshua 10:41 11:16 15:51

this is where I will begin the hunt for "insights".

Thanks but, to be honest, I was hoping for a bit more than Wikipedia and Tanakh references. As for Rashi, one can only applaud his creativity while keeping in mind that tradition holds that he was a winemaker. :D
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
As for Rashi, one can only applaud his creativity while keeping in mind that tradition holds that he was a winemaker.
Ooo-kay...he was also a big rabbi...I mean, even rabbis need to earn a living, right? You can see it all over the Talmud, the different ways rabbis earned money...
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Thanks but, to be honest, I was hoping for a bit more than Wikipedia and Tanakh references. As for Rashi, one can only applaud his creativity while keeping in mind that tradition holds that he was a winemaker. :D
Before you so quickly ridicule one of the most important and respected figures of traditional Judaism, I'll point out that not only does much of Rashi's interpretations come straight out of Midrash, in this particular instance he literally says that he's quoting the Midrash. It's one of the opinions of Genesis Rabbah 95:3.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Before you so quickly ridicule one of the most important and respected figures of traditional Judaism, I'll point out that not only does much of Rashi's interpretations come straight out of Midrash, in this particular instance he literally says that he's quoting the Midrash. It's one of the opinions of Genesis Rabbah 95:3.

I prefer "selectively dismiss" to "ridicule." And, while folkloric tales can cary much value, viewing them as reliable history strikes me as more than silly.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Then I didn't understand your comment on Rashi. Could you clarify?

Sure. It was actually a rather poor joke, suggesting that Rashi contrived the Yehuda tale after enjoying a bit too much of his product. Tumah has since clarified that the tale did not originate with our 11th century sage.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Sure. It was actually a rather poor joke, suggesting that Rashi contrived the Yehuda tale after enjoying a bit too much of his product. Tumah has since clarified that the tale did not originate with our 11th century sage.
Ah.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Thanks but, to be honest, I was hoping for a bit more than Wikipedia and Tanakh references. As for Rashi, one can only applaud his creativity while keeping in mind that tradition holds that he was a winemaker. :D
Hi. I'm sorry that I didn't deliver what you wanted in record time??? Jay. Gee-whiz...what do you expect. What sort of turn-around time is expected for "insights".

Just so you know.... sometimes I study something for years and if I'm lucky, listen to me, if I'm lucky, I discover 1 delicious beautiful insight. 1 year >>> 1 beautiful insight... that's a good year for me.

You asked this question... on Wednesday. And I told you:

The word Goshen ( or some variant ) appears to occur ( when I searched on it ) 15 times:

B'reisheis 45:10 46:28 ( 2 times ) 46:29 46:34 47:1 47:4 47:6 47:27 50:8
Shemos 8:22 9:26
Yehoshua 10:41 11:16 15:51

this is where I will begin the hunt for "insights".

In the spoiler are my thoughts and feelings about the approach you are taking with this thread. It continues seamlessly with what I am already saying above. But it's in a spoiler because in spite of your mocking me in previous threads. I still respect you, even if your words and actions don't respect me. I empathize with you, even though you don't appear to empathize with me. And I take you threads seriously. Even though I doubt you would offer the same to me.

So my honest feelings are in a spoiler, but I doubt you would ever read it. If it wasn't in a spoiler, I think you would bounce back with some sort of mocking, mean, and, snide remark.

But if you are a Man of Honor, please read how your thread has made me feel. It's the least you can do since you don't recognize nor appreciate the "insight" that I have already provided as requested. Not to mention that I was saying that I was continuing to look for more.

ShabboT Shalom.

Note: the words: "I will begin the hunt."

I did not say, "This is all I found, good luck." I was giving you a status update.

I was trying to tell you: "Hey man, I know you like hate Torah, and are always looking for ways to kick her into the gutter, but, in spite of our difference of world view and approach to Judaism, I like your question, and I'm going to proceed to attempt to answer it in a professional manner."

That's what I had **hoped** you would understand and feel in your heart when you read my reply. But beyond that. This is how I answer all questions of this nature. It could be a political thread, it could be a religions thread... what ever.

And I'm not upset at you or angry or anything... OK... just in case you are continuing to misread and misinterpret my words... ( seems to be a pattern if I consider your approach to Torah, so, my concern is justified... but I digress )

I think you may have noticed the recent thread about the democratic primary. I needed to do some research on the subject before answering ( just like this ). And just in case anyone wanted to read along with me, so that they would more easily understand the answer... I posted what I was reading in order to "start the hunt for insights".

Am I making any sense at all? Because it is possible, you know... that I am completely clinically insane right now... ask anyone.

Anywhooo...

The point is... **you** asked a question, and in classic Hasidic style, my answer is: "Hey, let's learn about this together Jay. If you have a question, two heads are better than one. Let's team-up on this Bro."

Do you read me? Does that make sense? I was trying to be friendly with you... I was taking your question seriously. And I was going to look for insights and that takes time.

Not to mention, you've expressed hatred towards the Talmud in previous threads... so I can't use that to look for insights. Based on that, I expect that you don't value Midrash as well ( unless it can be used for criticism ) so i can't go there either.... You have in previous threads spoken about the value of commentary, and that you do accept commentary as a valid source of information. So that's all I have to work with. Verses and Commentary. And that's where "I'm starting the hunt." Does that ring a bell?

Am I wrong about any of this?

The point is: I hope you appreciate how seriously I took your question. You may not know this. But I feel obligated by Halacha to take every question you ask seriously. It is incumbent on us... Aleinu, bro. Aleinu. It is incumbent on me ( at least ), it is my duty as a Jew to take your question seriously. It is my duty to approach the question on your terms, at your academic level, and ... and... it has to be accurate.

But that's not all. It has to be positive, because I am also Halachically bound to the Torah, and it is a Desecration of G-d's name to kick the Torah into the gutter. Desecration, capital "D". Do you even know what that is?

I hope that I am painting a picture for you that is perfectly clear.

In spite of your previously expressed attitude, in-spite of being extremely limited in which sources I can choose while looking for these , so-called, insights that you desire, in-spite of the fact that you have given me an impossible mission, and you will likely mock me, and tease me, and make fun of my religion....

( Note: not our religion.... you would me making fun of MY religion. )

In spite of all of those challenges... I am still willing to put myself on display setting myself up for the inevitable ridicule...and I am doing that because... I feel duty bound to do so.

Do you have any respect at all for what is happening right now? Do you have any empathy at all for someone like me?

These are intended as rhetorical respectful statements... not questions. OK. you don't have to answer.

But I hope you get the point.

I stuck my neck out there, and I invited you to learn with me, like the Chasid that I am.
And you figuratively kicked my in the Jimmies. Nice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Look. I was telling you that I was starting the hunt with the verses that have the word Goshen in it, because... bro... that's all I've got to work with. And you have given my an impossible mission, and I accepted the challenge.

Do you appreciate it?

Honest question?

I hope you actually answer, bro. Do you appreciate that I am taking your question seriously. I doubt it. Because you didn't really want the answer at all. You wanted to point out in a passive-aggressive manner that "There is no Goshen".

An I wrong?

Please answer.

Also,

Honest respectful question: Do you appreciate that I am expecting to be mocked, painfully mocked, and I answered your question anyways?

Please answer.

And that. Sir, is why I am guessing that the whole concept of this thread is passive-aggressive.

I am guess that you've already researched this yourself. You already know that there isn't anything in commentary about this place Goshen. There is likely no archaeological evidence for Goshen.
So the real purpose of the thread is not a request for information. That would be a lie. It's really passive-aggression towards the Torah and anyone who believes in her.

Am I wrong?

Please answer.

It is a vehicle for you to criticize it, and mock any of us who care about her ( The Torah )?

Am I wrong?

Please answer.

This thread is classic passive-aggression and it's ugly ( if that's what this is ). Not only that, passive aggressive threads are so so annoying, dude. It happens here on RF from time to time, and like it's so annoying.

Please understand... I see ALL of this as not only possible... but probable. And I answered anyways.

You should be thanking me, not criticizing me Jay. That is if you are a man of Honor. Assuming you know what the word Honor means.


Bottom line: Be patient Jay. What you're asking for is a year long project based on the parameters. G-d willing I'll have some insights for you this time next year. But in the mean time if you're serious...

Did you know that Goshen is mentioned in Yehoshua? There's your insight. Done.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Hi. I'm sorry that I didn't deliver what you wanted in record time??? Jay. Gee-whiz...what do you expect. What sort of turn-around time is expected for "insights".

In point of fact, I expected zero from you, least of all "insights" [sic]. Gee-whiz ... stop whining.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
In point of fact, I expected zero from you, least of all "insights" [sic]. Gee-whiz ... stop whining.
So be it.

Do you hate me Jay? What if, by some coicidence I show up in Shul with you, and I have my long Tallis on, and I am connected to the ritual in a way that seems exciting to the younger members.

And they can see that I have "connection" and they like it and gravitate towards me and my love of Torah.

How would you feel?

Would you and your friends want to push me into the sea figuratively?

Hmmm?

Do you HATE me?

please answer.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Seriously? :(

Let's reset this ...

Good morning. Shabbat shalom.​
Yes dude. Every time you mock me. Yes. That's hatred. You need to accept it and change your behavior.

By the way.

pass this on to your other "friends" and any other people who hate on me and MY religion.
 
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