What do satanists think about atheists?

[Fallacious]

Not 'the other,' Laveyan satanists but regular atheists and agnostics who completely dismiss and ignore the spiritual. Do yo share the Christian opinion that we're ignorant of the truth? Please pardon me if the question is stupid- I don't know much about satanism and am trying to understand it better

 

[ScottySatan]

There are at least two thoughts.

One, an atheist is better than most because he has usually come to this belief on his own. He has probably contradicted his upbringing.

Two, belief in god is not a prerequisite to needless self-sacrifice. Therefore, atheism cannot be a lone predictor of human quality. Satanists are the best people.

 

[Erebus]

I'm pretty neutral really as I am with most people's beliefs/lack of beliefs. Know it all atheists irritate me as much as any other know it all and knowledgeable atheists hold my interest as much as a knowledgeable theist. There are examples of both on this forum

I will say though that I think a lot of atheists miss out on using gods and demons to inject a little flavour into life. You don't have to believe in them to benefit from them.

 

[Drax]

Atheists lack god belief and can often become as fundamentalist as those who have god belief. I think it is arrogant to say "there is absolutely no god!" simply because there is no way to prove or disprove the existence or lack of existence of said god.

 

[jasonwill2]

generally i get along with them.

but an interesting thing to note is that you can be atheist but believe in the supernatural. as long as that supernatural has no gods that is.

I just get annoyed when they dismiss all spirituality because "its silly" as opposed to "never exprienced it or seen evidence for it". the latter is acceptable, the former is just arrogant and trying to promote a universal negative, which is scientifically impossible.

 

[Mindmaster]

A skeptical argument falls into a trap "That which I cannot measure doesn't exist." is generally a logical fallacy. There are plenty of high quality scientific thinkers who believe in a higher power as if that had anything to do with their credibility as thinker. Your inability to measure or quantify something doesn't indicate the existence of it, but rather the crudeness of your tools and inability to perceive it.

Proving something and disproving it are two different things. In the past, we were happy playing with the yellow cake we now call uranium and making glassware and pottery with it until we figured out that it had some strange radiation and it was killing us because we developed a device that could detect this dangerous energy. We're not even at first base in our knowledge of the human consciousness and know nearly nothing more about it than the Greek philosophers and other ancient thinkers did. While we have a breadth of knowledge in the physical sciences area the rest is a crap shoot...

Generally, if you have a theistic Satanism discussion with someone who isn't theistic you are wasting oxygen. Their mind is already all made up, and they're done exploring -- they're just trolling you. Any attempt to prove an emotional and mental experience is completely worthless and they know that, but they also know these experiences 'exist'. Prove that 'happiness' exists! See, that's the argument they will get to -- these types of things can only be experienced by someone who does the leg work that puts them in the place where they experience the concept directly. They rather say "this and that" does not happen, but history is riddled with examples where they do. The collective of the experience is the only way to prove these things much in the way that psychiatry can prove someone schizophrenic or similar -- it is an idea based on experience and ONLY experience; there is no medical test of schizophrenia. Spiritual experiences are the same way... You have to do the work and meditation, do the historical research, develop hypothesis, test them, and come up with your own conclusions.

After attempting open dialog with Atheist Satanists I've concluded that they need to stop using "Satanists" in their moniker and replace it with the word "Troll". It's OK to wear dark clothes and be an Atheist... really, stop trying to be a cool kid. If you are a true rebel you don't even need to fit in with trolls. The more you try to talk to them the more you realize that you are not in fact talking with someone but rather just being raked over the coals for amusement. The prevalent know-it-all attitude combined with the incessant fighting and blathering is enough to get on anyone's nerves.

 

[jasonwill2]

a skeptical argument falls into a trap "that which i cannot measure doesn't exist." is generally a logical fallacy. There are plenty of high quality scientific thinkers who believe in a higher power as if that had anything to do with their credibility as thinker. Your inability to measure or quantify something doesn't indicate the existence of it, but rather the crudeness of your tools and inability to perceive it.

Proving something and disproving it are two different things. In the past, we were happy playing with the yellow cake we now call uranium and making glassware and pottery with it until we figured out that it had some strange radiation and it was killing us because we developed a device that could detect this dangerous energy. We're not even at first base in our knowledge of the human consciousness and know nearly nothing more about it than the greek philosophers and other ancient thinkers did. While we have a breadth of knowledge in the physical sciences area the rest is a crap shoot...

Generally, if you have a theistic satanism discussion with someone who isn't theistic you are wasting oxygen. Their mind is already all made up, and they're done exploring -- they're just trolling you. Any attempt to prove an emotional and mental experience is completely worthless and they know that, but they also know these experiences 'exist'. Prove that 'happiness' exists! See, that's the argument they will get to -- these types of things can only be experience by someone who does the leg work that puts them in the place where they experience the concept directly. They rather say "this and that" does not happen, but history is riddled with examples where they do. The collective of the experience is the only way to prove these things much in the way that psychiatry can prove someone schizophrenic or similar -- it is an idea based on experience and only experience; there is no medical test of schizophrenia. Spiritual experiences are the same way... You have to do the work and meditation, do the historical research, develop hypothesis, test them, and come up with your own conclusions.

After attempting open dialog with atheist satanists i've concluded that they need to stop using "satanists" in their moniker and replace it with the word "troll". It's ok to wear dark clothes and be an atheist... Really, stop trying to be a cool kid. If you are a true rebel you don't even need to fit in with trolls. The more you try to talk to them the more you realize that you are not in fact talking with someone but rather just being raked over the coals for amusement. The prevalent know-it-all attitude combined with the incessant fighting and blathering is enough to get on anyone's nerves.

you are a god!

 

[The Sum of Awe]

After attempting open dialog with Atheist Satanists I've concluded that they need to stop using "Satanists" in their moniker and replace it with the word "Troll". It's OK to wear dark clothes and be an Atheist... really, stop trying to be a cool kid. If you are a true rebel you don't even need to fit in with trolls. The more you try to talk to them the more you realize that you are not in fact talking with someone but rather just being raked over the coals for amusement. The prevalent know-it-all attitude combined with the incessant fighting and blathering is enough to get on anyone's nerves.

I understand that this is a DIR for Theistic Satanists, but you got the whole concept of NonTheistic Satanists all wrong. It's not just about wearing dark clothes and all...

Sure it is about rebelling, I don't personally rebel for I have nothing to rebel from, but sure it can be called that. But may I ask you, why you have to worship Satan to be a rebel? I conclusively speak, from experience, that Theistic Satanism is not about rebelling as it is about being lesser than a being they claim is really existent. If you're a true rebel, you'll understand that you just have to be yourself and follow yourself

I don't understand your point on who should and who shouldn't be called "Satanism", does that label even matter to you? It's just a word, actions are more precise than words.

If Satanism is ONLY about wearing dark clothes to you and rebelling by worshipping a being named Satan, then I doubt you have any clue what the label itself means.

 

[Mindmaster]

Sure it is about rebelling, I don't personally rebel for I have nothing to rebel from, but sure it can be called that. But may I ask you, why you have to worship Satan to be a rebel? I conclusively speak, from experience, that Theistic Satanism is not about rebelling as it is about being lesser than a being they claim is really existent.

Again, theistic Satanists don't worship anything in a classic sense... You don't have to worship something to know of it's existence. Moreover, I find it rather silly because I am aware that part of that force is within me. Worshiping is such an inaccurate word for what we do and basically and practice unbelief as a second religion. Satan is a God of men, not a master of slaves. If you deny yourself you deny any awareness of it's raison d'etre. Introspection will prove your connection to the source, and reflection will determine what parts of your life need amplification and limitation. Once you can live unhindered you will be living in a innately Satanic fashion carnal and individualistic. However, no one can do that for you and like many things as soon as you stop seeking the prize you settle in. If you presume nothing exists outside of what you know now, and what the physical sciences can measure then it never will for you. You just won't do the work, and will make up excuses. I can promise you that there is much more than what science is currently able to compute, but you would have to take my word for that. =) So, here's your bone.. fetch!

Similarly, I feel that Abrahamic religions just sought to usurp power from the source -- they are a man-made creation used to delude and deny people their carnality and self-expression so that others can control them and rule. The true God of humankind wouldn't expect us to act in deference to our fundamental nature since the only reason we seem to be here is to express it and learn from it. Likewise, there is no reason to through the trouble of giving someone something that you don't expect them to use... Some of what it means to be human is rather common sense, but common sense is a resource depleting itself at an alarming rate these days.

Why should we use the name Satan? Because it's simple... Enki, Set, Pan, Typhon, Lucifer (though less often), and whatever else have no meaning to the modern mind. Using the other names is generally done by people who split off other groups... It is all Satan and he was there even before the Hebrews started using that name... these others are just causing confusion and they're just trying to herd people into their little clique with a different name. Using an older name doesn't imply any legitimacy anyway... Let's face the fact that most non-mainstream revivals are modern inventions and talk about the merits or drawbacks of them. Doing otherwise is simply falling into the Christian trap of prattling on about the last two-thousand years as that being a basis of their correctness. Of course they leave out the parts about ethnic cleansing, inquisitions, witch hunts, ritual sacrifice (please read Leviticus.. esh), child molestation, and anything else that isn't so much fun for them to talk about. Its not like some people haven't come up with a few good ideas since then.

Invariably, this comes off sort of preachy for me in some ways but due to the nature of the subject I find that it is probably unavoidable. Spiritual matters are such obtuse subjects, and I find that my own disdain for Christianity probably has gotten the best of me a few times but I try to keep it illustrative at worst. It probably goes without saying but never believe an atheist when they talk about theistic Satanists since they immediately do NOT know what they are talking about as none of them know more than LaVey or Gilmore regurgitation.

Don't worry kids... the Devil is real... but, it's not what you think...

 

[jasonwill2]

Again, theistic Satanists don't worship anything in a classic sense... You don't have to worship something to know of it's existence. Moreover, I find it rather silly because I am aware that part of that force is within me. Worshiping is such an inaccurate word for what we do and basically and practice unbelief as a second religion. Satan is a God of men, not a master of slaves. If you deny yourself you deny any awareness of it's raison d'etre. Introspection will prove your connection to the source, and reflection will determine what parts of your life need amplification and limitation. Once you can live unhindered you will be living in a innately Satanic fashion carnal and individualistic. However, no one can do that for you and like many things as soon as you stop seeking the prize you settle in. If you presume nothing exists outside of what you know now, and what the physical sciences can measure then it never will for you. You just won't do the work, and will make up excuses. I can promise you that there is much more than what science is currently able to compute, but you would have to take my word for that. =) So, here's your bone.. fetch!

Similarly, I feel that Abrahamic religions just sought to usurp power from the source -- they are a man-made creation used to delude and deny people their carnality and self-expression so that others can control them and rule. The true God of humankind wouldn't expect us to act in deference to our fundamental nature since the only reason we seem to be here is to express it and learn from it. Likewise, there is no reason to through the trouble of giving someone something that you don't expect them to use... Some of what it means to be human is rather common sense, but common sense is a resource depleting itself at an alarming rate these days.

Why should we use the name Satan? Because it's simple... Enki, Set, Pan, Typhon, Lucifer (though less often), and whatever else have no meaning to the modern mind. Using the other names is generally done by people who split off other groups... It is all Satan and he was there even before the Hebrews started using that name... these others are just causing confusion and they're just trying to herd people into their little clique with a different name. Using an older name doesn't imply any legitimacy anyway... Let's face the fact that most non-mainstream revivals are modern inventions and talk about the merits or drawbacks of them. Doing otherwise is simply falling into the Christian trap of prattling on about the last two-thousand years as that being a basis of their correctness. Of course they leave out the parts about ethnic cleansing, inquisitions, witch hunts, ritual sacrifice (please read Leviticus.. esh), child molestation, and anything else that isn't so much fun for them to talk about. Its not like some people haven't come up with a few good ideas since then.

Invariably, this comes off sort of preachy for me in some ways but due to the nature of the subject I find that it is probably unavoidable. Spiritual matters are such obtuse subjects, and I find that my own disdain for Christianity probably has gotten the best of me a few times but I try to keep it illustrative at worst. It probably goes without saying but never believe an atheist when they talk about theistic Satanists since they immediately do NOT know what they are talking about as none of them know more than LaVey or Gilmore regurgitation.

Don't worry kids... the Devil is real... but, it's not what you think...

I mostly agree, however I am also willing to consider that "Satan" might be parts of our minds that are locked away... completely real and more powerful than the rest of us, but completely internal.

However I find it useful to see it as both external AND internal.

Also to me Satan is just an extension of a Pantheistic god, but more or less he is God, even if indirectly.

And yes, the Christians deny the Source by denying themselves and their nature. We are destroyers AND creators, haters AND lovers. It's a matter of moderation, not "love everyone" vs "hate everyone" idea lots of people think in.. it's too black and white. Reality is gray, not white or black, and so Satan is truly neutral, not all good or all evil, but the perfect balance of light and dark. Not that dark is evil, at least not anymore than the light...

Say, didn't The Satanic Bible say somethign about Satan being like a balancing force in nature? It just came to mind right now, but heh. I think I'm falling onto the same line of thinking, only in a Theistic sense.

 

[Mindmaster]

I mostly agree, however I am also willing to consider that "Satan" might be parts of our minds that are locked away... completely real and more powerful than the rest of us, but completely internal.

--- snipping ---

Say, didn't The Satanic Bible say somethign about Satan being like a balancing force in nature? It just came to mind right now, but heh. I think I'm falling onto the same line of thinking, only in a Theistic sense.

Satan is much more than your mind and a part of you and you are much more than a physical person. The physical world is such a small part of reality really -- think of it sort of as a hard crust on the outside of reality. You have been given a hardened flesh suit to get you through this voyage that is suited for travel through this world. Eventually though, the seals give up and you have to eject. =)

Christians tend to identify with their corpse and believe Jesus or God is coming for them, and nothing ever does or will. They lie with their bodies in graves because they think this imaginary Jesus character will find them there and redeem them. Their appearance rots with their bones and look truly fetid and zombieish after awhile -- it's truly saddening... The first time I had seen one I cried nearly one hour I never felt so incensed about someone being lied to in such a drastic way in my entire life. Generally, they seem to hang out for hundreds of years until they cannot find their own location any more and their body is nothing but dust. Much worse however, is if they don't believe in anything at all really -- the skeptic believes they blip out of existence once they pass on. They become mindless blobs trapped in a mental dark prison seeing as there is no afterlife in their view. They truly have the most frightening fate as far as I am concerned; to merely be trapped in an experience-less void for eternity is a daunting prospect to anyone. Thoughts are a reality in the next life, and that which you have patterned yourself to believe can be a cage forever.

I had only learned recently that Japanese culture will retrieve bodies no matter what the expense or effort since they seem to know about this "person haunting their corpse" aspect. It does lend me a little appreciation of their spirituality having been verified by some of my experiences. Sorry to go off track... Some very heartfelt experiences of mine govern these words. Imagine losing a father, mother, or brother and them being left in this sickening state. Therein lies some of my emotional fuel with this issue the Christian lies have a much larger impact than in this life. In the next life your thoughts can become a real binding prison as they are manifest reality in the other place.

To give you a rough estimate of how much larger these "finer" layers of existence are one thing you will notice immediately is the time distortion. Time is related to space in nearly all instances -- basically five minutes in this other realm is like one hour here. A year of our time is a mere thirty days of that places time. This is why when you dream even though you may be sleeping five or six hours -- it seems like you really have spent little over one hour away. Thus, my rough guess or estimate is that this "space" is five times larger than the physical. Some call this an "astral" plane... but like your connection to Satan it is rather coexistent in nature it's not really a different place. I guess a concept of a plane works for understanding.. but, it's more like an onion layer than other location.

I've rambled enough I suppose, but I haven't said anything one cannot experience for themselves. I am just an average man with an atypical thirst for knowledge. Anyone can do the work if they so desire and discover for themselves the truth of it if it is in their nature to pursue such an inquiry.

Nature cannot be "unbalanced" of course. Satan is much more than the processes but rather the reason they even occur. Eventually, theoretically these misled folks will come around but it may take a literal eternity of our time. Thus, in many ways I feel Satan to be too nebulous for most mortal minds. It's easy to mistake the effects, machinery, and the like for the manifestation which directly at least.. really isn't observable.

 

[jasonwill2]

Satan is much more than your mind and a part of you and you are much more than a physical person. The physical world is such a small part of reality really -- think of it sort of as a hard crust on the outside of reality. You have been given a hardened flesh suit to get you through this voyage that is suited for travel through this world. Eventually though, the seals give up and you have to eject. =)

Christians tend to identify with their corpse and believe Jesus or God is coming for them, and nothing ever does or will. They lie with their bodies in graves because they think this imaginary Jesus character will find them there and redeem them. Their appearance rots with their bones and look truly fetid and zombieish after awhile -- it's truly saddening... The first time I had seen one I cried nearly one hour I never felt so incensed about someone being lied to in such a drastic way in my entire life. Generally, they seem to hang out for hundreds of years until they cannot find their own location any more and their body is nothing but dust. Much worse however, is if they don't believe in anything at all really -- the skeptic believes they blip out of existence once they pass on. They become mindless blobs trapped in a mental dark prison seeing as there is no afterlife in their view. They truly have the most frightening fate as far as I am concerned; to merely be trapped in an experience-less void for eternity is a daunting prospect to anyone. Thoughts are a reality in the next life, and that which you have patterned yourself to believe can be a cage forever.

I had only learned recently that Japanese culture will retrieve bodies no matter what the expense or effort since they seem to know about this "person haunting their corpse" aspect. It does lend me a little appreciation of their spirituality having been verified by some of my experiences. Sorry to go off track... Some very heartfelt experiences of mine govern these words. Imagine losing a father, mother, or brother and them being left in this sickening state. Therein lies some of my emotional fuel with this issue the Christian lies have a much larger impact than in this life. In the next life your thoughts can become a real binding prison as they are manifest reality in the other place.

To give you a rough estimate of how much larger these "finer" layers of existence are one thing you will notice immediately is the time distortion. Time is related to space in nearly all instances -- basically five minutes in this other realm is like one hour here. A year of our time is a mere thirty days of that places time. This is why when you dream even though you may be sleeping five or six hours -- it seems like you really have spent little over one hour away. Thus, my rough guess or estimate is that this "space" is five times larger than the physical. Some call this an "astral" plane... but like your connection to Satan it is rather coexistent in nature it's not really a different place. I guess a concept of a plane works for understanding.. but, it's more like an onion layer than other location.

I've rambled enough I suppose, but I haven't said anything one cannot experience for themselves. I am just an average man with an atypical thirst for knowledge. Anyone can do the work if they so desire and discover for themselves the truth of it if it is in their nature to pursue such an inquiry.

Nature cannot be "unbalanced" of course. Satan is much more than the processes but rather the reason they even occur. Eventually, theoretically these misled folks will come around but it may take a literal eternity of our time. Thus, in many ways I feel Satan to be too nebulous for most mortal minds. It's easy to mistake the effects, machinery, and the like for the manifestation which directly at least.. really isn't observable.

First, I want to hear later on about these experiences.

Secondly, the reason you only dream for 1 hour but sleep for 6 is because it's only durring REM sleep that you can dream, which means that you can't get into a dream state right away after falling alseep unless you were just asleep or have one or two of these wierd sleep conditions that makes you fall into REM sleep right away

 

[atropine]

It depends on the atheist.

I am a theist, so I am turned off by the atheists that are all "all religion is stupid the idea of gods are stupid you're all wrong", etc. I dislike arrogance, and I think it is arrogance for anyone to tell anyone else that their religion is stupid. I agree that some ideas can be stupid, and that some ideas can be wrong, but a religion in general? Blah.

 

[Mindmaster]

It depends on the atheist.

I am a theist, so I am turned off by the atheists that are all "all religion is stupid the idea of gods are stupid you're all wrong", etc. I dislike arrogance, and I think it is arrogance for anyone to tell anyone else that their religion is stupid. I agree that some ideas can be stupid, and that some ideas can be wrong, but a religion in general? Blah.

Generally, its a fools game anyway. See the Atheist themselves have experiences that they cannot quantify by traditional methods! For example, the eerie coincidence or moment when your intuition tips you off and you overt a catastrophe. Science has no answers for this, so naturally the skeptic goes with 'random chance' so they can sleep at night. The source of the militant stance of course really is FEAR; whether it be the fear of being wrong, or of the manifestations that something beyond their five senses exists.

Skepticism can be healthy provided it is used as an impetus to seek the truth and not EXCLUDE it, but used incorrectly it is the most formidable of method of self-deception. These persons will disbelieve everything -- even their own experiences and intuitions and not seek any further exploration. See I didn't come to a perception of 'Satan' by a blind faith, but rather an exploration of my inner psyche. I ask you not to believe in me, but rather yourself. Your soul knows the truth of all matters -- it being connected to the creator. Reach inward and you will find the path; reach far enough and you will feel the connection as well. Search deep and the lies of others and their false agendas become obvious.

Its very easy to mistake the errors of the Right-Hand Path and apply them to all religion with a wide brush. I had been there myself at one point -- I had been as dyed-in-the-wool of an Atheist (admittedly, a LaVeyan Satanist..) as any, but I had experiences which such a model couldn't explain. Hunches, intuitions, telepathic communications, strange out of body experiences, and the like that no militantly atheistic frame of mind could compute (including my own at the time!). If a model cannot explain your the experiences you have witnessed doesn't that leave you with several holes that need explaining? Aye, so there I was on the precipice looking downward with an empty head all because I decided to attempt meditation for relaxation and the results of which moved me into new lines of investigation. I didn't seek them out... they welled up from within... the need for an innate understanding driving them out of my core...

Here I stand years later and I still feel as a babe... =) Never stop looking because its the insatiable thirst that drives self-realization of the truth.

 

[jasonwill2]

Generally, its a fools game anyway. See the Atheist themselves have experiences that they cannot quantify by traditional methods! For example, the eerie coincidence or moment when your intuition tips you off and you overt a catastrophe. Science has no answers for this, so naturally the skeptic goes with 'random chance' so they can sleep at night. The source of the militant stance of course really is FEAR; whether it be the fear of being wrong, or of the manifestations that something beyond their five senses exists.

Skepticism can be healthy provided it is used as an impetus to seek the truth and not EXCLUDE it, but used incorrectly it is the most formidable of method of self-deception. These persons will disbelieve everything -- even their own experiences and intuitions and not seek any further exploration. See I didn't come to a perception of 'Satan' by a blind faith, but rather an exploration of my inner psyche. I ask you not to believe in me, but rather yourself. Your soul knows the truth of all matters -- it being connected to the creator. Reach inward and you will find the path; reach far enough and you will feel the connection as well. Search deep and the lies of others and their false agendas become obvious.

Its very easy to mistake the errors of the Right-Hand Path and apply them to all religion with a wide brush. I had been there myself at one point -- I had been as dyed-in-the-wool of an Atheist (admittedly, a LaVeyan Satanist..) as any, but I had experiences which such a model couldn't explain. Hunches, intuitions, telepathic communications, strange out of body experiences, and the like that no militantly atheistic frame of mind could compute (including my own at the time!). If a model cannot explain your the experiences you have witnessed doesn't that leave you with several holes that need explaining? Aye, so there I was on the precipice looking downward with an empty head all because I decided to attempt meditation for relaxation and the results of which moved me into new lines of investigation. I didn't seek them out... they welled up from within... the need for an innate understanding driving them out of my core...

Here I stand years later and I still feel as a babe... =) Never stop looking because its the insatiable thirst that drives self-realization of the truth.

I really need to sit down with you at some point and talk to you about your metaphysics!

 

[atropine]

That's quite impossible, since Atheists don't even believe in Satan to my knowledge, and it's really impossible to follow something you don't even believe exists.

If I blindfolded you, stuffed beeswax in your ears, didn't allow anyone to guide you and then told you to follow me as I ran off in a random direction... how the heck could you possibly do that? The only way you can follow someone is with direction, and the ability to sense where you are going. Satanists-- if they even believe in Satan at all, which some don't-- follow Satan because they have been given direction. Atheists follow no gods because they haven't been given any direction that makes sense to them.

And either way, is it bad to be an Atheist or a Satanist?

As for me, I follow a god, too. It's just not the one people usually follow.

 

[Mindmaster]

I really need to sit down with you at some point and talk to you about your metaphysics!

I may at some point delineate a methodology, but I will never explain the details. Undoubtedly, this may be a sticking point with some of you and I simply must apologize as there are extremely important reasons I should not do so. One of which that comes to mind immediately is fakers -- I can immediately discriminate between those who are speaking of truth and not through certain common information that anyone whom is truly 'awakened' has that those whom aren't will not. There are a lot of false prophets in the 'truth' business and those whom have done the work can validate each other easily so why bother giving someone a story to rip off and deceive others with? Would you like to ride the bicycle or buy a book about my first trip on one? Such simple experiences convey more than than words, and perhaps are a more useful end.

Generally, other people not so connected would find it unbelievable anyway not willing to 'sit on the seat and pedal' or whatever. I'm not against such scrutiny, but in many cases the approach which must be followed is governed in no small way by the limitations of the participant. This is my chief argument of exposing that little bit of method -- as half that will try will fail completely and I have no doubt of that. Some people never acquire the poise required to balance the bicycle, and thus cannot ride even being coached in all the proper techniques. And some, having ridden such a bicycle can never ride a motorcycle for the sake of fear; thus this is the nature of our situation.

I haven't really come to a decision on this and consequently I will meditate on it for awhile if no one minds. :angel2: There are parts of me that vehemently reject the concept, but there are valid reasons to expose a practical means of awakening oneself as well. After a bit of soul searching perhaps you may see something rather detailed posted. For any pressing questions of course I will answer any PM's that arrive, but if you do not receive a reply simply consider it may be something that I do not feel responsible answering.