Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
Pretty self explanatory title. I know there's a lot of the former on this site but any of the latter? And what does one group think of the other?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
What do Pro-Israel Jews think of Anti-Israel Jews?
- Thread starter Tomorrows_Child
- Start date
rosends
Well-Known Member
I think that they run the gamut from misled or uninformed to spiteful and vindictive. The range of people who hold anti-Israel views is wide, so one cannot hold an opinion of the entire group, since (IMHO) there is very little that will necessarily unite all the members of the larger group.
Allow me a suggestion. See if you want to specify how much opposition to Israel is enough for the purposes of your question.
There are those who want a two-country solution (although it is my understanding that in recent years those became very few).
There are those who sympathise with the idea of the existence of Israel but do not think of it as a necessity.
There are those who think there is too much warfare and blood already and would rather let go of the land.
There are segments of Orthodox Judaism that oppose the very existence of Israel before their Messiah returns, for religious reasons.
Do you feel like stating which of those groups qualify and which do not?
There are those who want a two-country solution (although it is my understanding that in recent years those became very few).
There are those who sympathise with the idea of the existence of Israel but do not think of it as a necessity.
There are those who think there is too much warfare and blood already and would rather let go of the land.
There are segments of Orthodox Judaism that oppose the very existence of Israel before their Messiah returns, for religious reasons.
Do you feel like stating which of those groups qualify and which do not?
Tumah
Veteran Member
And even within those segments, there are those that take a weak stance against the country (they're already here so we may as well deal with it even though its not ideal), these people work in the government.
And there are those who take a stronger stance against the country (accepting no money from the government or voting and in some extreme cases holding protests against the government).
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
Let me clarify a bit, an anti-Israel Jew would be one who believes that Israeli occupation of Palestinian land is illegal (As international law supports) and that jews should leave that land or at the very least give it back to the Palestinians. Also, an anti-Israel Jew would be against the indiscriminate killing of innocent Palestinians by Israel, which is supported by the majority of the religious community in the country.
Something along those lines although there are many Jews who do hold the view of a "2 nation" solution.
Something along those lines although there are many Jews who do hold the view of a "2 nation" solution.
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
Which group are you speaking of? The pro-Israel group?
rosends
Well-Known Member
No, the anti-Israel one.
Since I am utterly deprived ot the good sense to stay out of this, let me point out that some further clarification would probably be in order. Specifically:
It is my understanding that this is in and of itself somewhat vague. There are many competing understandings about what should the proper, lawful boundaries of Israeli land be. For starters, there is the choice between the original frontiers of ... was it 1947? as accepted by the United Nations and those gained as a result of the war that erupted in the very same day of Israel's inauguration as a modern nation. I'm fairly sure that there are quite a few additional frontier controversies that came later.
And then there is the not inconsequential matter of which international law we are talking about exactly.
Or maybe you mean Jewish People who do not think it is proper to have a Jewish State in the Middle East land at all? That is a fair enough meaning, but not one that comes very clearly from the wording you used here.
I suspect this will be perceived as a loaded request, although I am not all that certain about the specifics. Much, perhaps all of the original territory occupied by Israel in the late 1940s was lawfully bought, from the people that used to live there, or so I am told. It is entirely reasonable to ask why Israel should give up on what it acquired legally.
You will be hard pressed to find even a hardened military man who will claim to be in favor of indiscriminate killing of innocents. People just don't think of themselves in those terms.
In the absence of further comment, I will understand that you see the Two Nations idea as having at least some merit but would rather not give much of an opinion on whether it is sufficient at this moment. Which is certainly fair.
It is my understanding that this is in and of itself somewhat vague. There are many competing understandings about what should the proper, lawful boundaries of Israeli land be. For starters, there is the choice between the original frontiers of ... was it 1947? as accepted by the United Nations and those gained as a result of the war that erupted in the very same day of Israel's inauguration as a modern nation. I'm fairly sure that there are quite a few additional frontier controversies that came later.
And then there is the not inconsequential matter of which international law we are talking about exactly.
Or maybe you mean Jewish People who do not think it is proper to have a Jewish State in the Middle East land at all? That is a fair enough meaning, but not one that comes very clearly from the wording you used here.
I suspect this will be perceived as a loaded request, although I am not all that certain about the specifics. Much, perhaps all of the original territory occupied by Israel in the late 1940s was lawfully bought, from the people that used to live there, or so I am told. It is entirely reasonable to ask why Israel should give up on what it acquired legally.
You will be hard pressed to find even a hardened military man who will claim to be in favor of indiscriminate killing of innocents. People just don't think of themselves in those terms.
In the absence of further comment, I will understand that you see the Two Nations idea as having at least some merit but would rather not give much of an opinion on whether it is sufficient at this moment. Which is certainly fair.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
*Honest question* Can you support this claim of "indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians" (obviously, not from a biased Palestinian or Israeli publication)? Also, do you mean "intentional" targeting of innocent civilians for the purpose of killing said civilians or no?
outhouse
Atheistically
Who thinks this that is a jew?
Is there such a thing?
Are not those called muslims?
prometheus11
Well-Known Member
The situations are complex. There are certainly Jews who do not believe in Israel having land in the Middle East and there are Arabs and Palestinians who think the Jews should "own" and control Israel.
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
Yes I can, there's video footage, there are articles, eye witness reports, UN reports, all sorts. You can google search it within seconds.
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
So you think only muslims are against occupation of Palestinian lands? And only Muslims are Palestinians?
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you mean.
@Tomorrows_Child , you are attempting a form of reaching out that is simply not at all likely to work.
You are stating things that are simply wrong or just far too biased far as your interlocutors know. That can only lead to quick disregard of your accusations.
Israel is by no means above criticism, and IMO it is by no means a given that there should be an Israel at all.
But for criticism to be considered, it needs a bit more information than you are showing to have right now. It definitely helps to have specific questions and suggestions as well.
As a rule, people seem to pay more attention and respect to criticism that shows good awareness of the issues involved. Far from being an exception, the Jewish People, including Zionists, seem to me to be even more sensitive to displays of such awareness or lack of same.
You are stating things that are simply wrong or just far too biased far as your interlocutors know. That can only lead to quick disregard of your accusations.
Israel is by no means above criticism, and IMO it is by no means a given that there should be an Israel at all.
But for criticism to be considered, it needs a bit more information than you are showing to have right now. It definitely helps to have specific questions and suggestions as well.
As a rule, people seem to pay more attention and respect to criticism that shows good awareness of the issues involved. Far from being an exception, the Jewish People, including Zionists, seem to me to be even more sensitive to displays of such awareness or lack of same.
outhouse
Atheistically
QUOTE="prometheus11, post: 4584781, member: 58857"]There are certainly Jews who do not believe in Israel[/QUOTE]
I'm sure there are Americans Jews who could care less about the orthodox and the trouble they cause.
Its like asking Jews what they think about the mosque on their most holy site, as a whole they think it was land stolen.
I understand.
I was trying to get OP to define what he is even talking about, because the OP was so convoluted
I'm sure there are Americans Jews who could care less about the orthodox and the trouble they cause.
Its like asking Jews what they think about the mosque on their most holy site, as a whole they think it was land stolen.
I understand.
I was trying to get OP to define what he is even talking about, because the OP was so convoluted
leibowde84
Veteran Member
I've looked into this issue quite a bit since I first saw your OP, and I think you are dead wrong on this one. I think you used the term "indiscriminate" mistakenly, as it seems to make your claim in the OP absurd. Can you provide some evidence that Israel kills innocent civilians "indiscriminately" or "randomly without careful judgment"? Obviously, merely pointing to articles indicating that Israel has killed innocent civilians wouldn't be nearly enough, as my issue is only with the word "indiscriminate". So, you would have to point to evidence that they target innocent civilians randomly without consideration.
Honestly, I am not trying to defend Israel. I merely am pointing out that it seems as though you used the wrong word. I mean, how could one argue that Israel kills innocent civilians randomly without consideration or judgment? How would that even help their cause in the least?
in·dis·crim·i·nate
ˌindəˈskrimənət/
adjective
- done at random or without careful judgment.
outhouse
Atheistically
Sounds like excuses for terrorism to me.
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
I think that Islam may wash your brain
First you have to know very well history
The State of Israel is not a modern state
Is an old state
And it was present in the land of Palestine by the Arabs and Islam
Second
Jews believe in the religion of God
Thirdly
Jews did not raped Palestine
Jews returned to their original homes
Fourthly Jews believe in peace
V of the Jewish and Israeli right to defend himself in every way
VI.
Israel suffers from a line
On the Palestinian to leave the Koran and live in peace with its neighbors, Jews
Jews have the right to Palestine
You are a Muslim and not have the right to declare hatred to the Jews
VII.
Despite all the defensive actions of Israel
Van Islamic terrorism roughest
I wish I could leave the Islamic hate speech against Jews
And respects their religion
Arabs and Palestinians only have the right to dialogue with the Israelis