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What do Muslims think of Jesus?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by flysky, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    The special birth of Jesus is so great in Islam and it has a special meaning as a miracle and sign for God's power but that dosn't mean to believe in the original sin and the salvation because of that.
     
  2. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    You say in your last reply: “The special birth of Jesus is so great in Islam and it has a special meaning as a miracle and sign for God's power but that dosn't mean to believe in the original sin and the salvation because of that.”

    Reply: I am a glutton for punishment so I will ask one more time, “What about it is “so great in Islam?” I understand it is a sign and a miracle and I agree. But what is “so great” or has “special meaning” about a sign and a miracle that you learn about 33+ years after the fact, in the case of the Bible or 600+ years after the fact in the case of the Quran?

    Maybe I am asking it in the wrong way. Everything in the Bible is there for a reason. Because of the unity, harmony, consistency, continuity and history found in the Bible you could see when there was something missing and you start to look for it in the prophecies and the laws of the law code. In that regard the Bible is very much like one of those huge picture puzzles with hundreds or even thousands of pieces that must be matched up and fitted together. When you leave out a piece you can see that something is needed to meet the need or requirement. If you leave out the miraculous birth of Jesus you have a gaping huge hole that causes other pieces not to fit.

    Again, if I listed all the hundreds of signs and miracles and left out one of the healings it would be no big deal because there are still hundreds of other signs and miracles to refer to. Correct me if I am wrong but in the Quran, based on what you have told me so far, leaving out the miraculous birth of Jesus would be like leaving only one miracle off of a list of hundreds of other such miracles and signs, whereas in the Bible there is a gaping huge hole. If you leave the miraculous birth of Jesus out of the Quran do you end up with any other pieces that do not fit? There is no need to write a big long repetitive reply; a simple yes or no will do. Either there is gaping hole in the Quran if you leave that off the list or there is not and it is still a miracle and a sign just like all the other hundreds of signs and miracles that God provided in the case of Jesus.

    Continues below.


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  3. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    Now on to your next to last reply:

    First thing, how is it that something some man said on a web site proves anything about the Bible or the even Quran for that matter? Am I supposed to believe the things that you say just because you can find a web site somewhere that says it too? Sorry, I was born at night but it wasn’t last night!

    Second thing, the very same web sites also say the Bible teaches the Trinity, we both know that is wrong, so how can you or I believe anything they say about the Bible? Please explain that one to me.

    Let me borrow a quote from one of my posts in the other thread:

    “Perhaps one thing that Christians and Muslims can agree upon is that the Devil does not want God’s guidance to reach man. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that Satan and his cohorts, including so-called Christians and so-called Muslims, would try to have the Holy Scriptures corrupted so that mankind might be misled and turned away from God. Over the centuries, various individuals have tried to add to certain verses. But did they succeed in corrupting God’s words? Would God allow them to do so? No! Throughout the Scriptures, he affirms that he would preserve his words. “The green grass has dried up, the blossom has withered; but as for the word of our God, it will last to time indefinite,” says Isaiah 40:8. (See also 1 Peter 1:24, 25.) Likewise, the Quran says: “There is none that can alter the Words (and Decrees) of God.” (Al-Anam [6]:34) Thus, all attempts to change God’s words have failed because it is inconceivable that God would permit any manipulation of his books.”

    Third thing, I thought we established it at the very beginning that just as all those Muslims going around killing other Muslims and killing all the innocent by-standers and attacking schools full of school children do not accurately represent what you say the Quran teaches there are also many so-called Christians that really do not represent the Bible, is that not what we agreed to? So why do you now try to bring what they say into this discussion? Should I respond by going to look for some outrageously radical Islamic site to get quotes from about what the Quran teaches? Should I go out to the web and find a site written by Muslims that have turned apostate and that put out all kinds of garbage about the Quran and Muslims? That is what you are doing to me! Would it not be better that I stay on the sites you recommended because they, according to you, correctly present what you believe? Would you like me to recommend a web site for you to read that correctly presents what I believe? And if I did would you bother to go read it?

    Now lets see what is really said in those verses:

    (Psalm 147:1, 13, 20) Praise Jah, you people, For it is good to make melody to our God; For it is pleasant—praise is fitting. … 13 For he has made the bars of your gates strong; He has blessed your sons in the midst of you. … 20 He has not done that way to any other nation; And as for [his] judicial decisions, they have not known them. Praise Jah, you people!

    The opening and closing verses of that Psalm clearly show that it is addressed to people. The reference to Jerusalem and Zion are simply figures of speech, you know things like metaphor, simile, and hyperbole, that add life and color to poetry, so it is not the city Jerusalem being addressed it is the people and the sons mentioned are the “sons” of the people. So where do you see sons = servants?

    (Proverbs 1:8-10) Listen, my son, to the discipline of your father, and do not forsake the law of your mother. 9 For they are a wreath of attractiveness to your head and a fine necklace to your throat. 10 My son, if sinners try to seduce you, do not consent.

    Again, we find that son = male offspring and not son = servant. Do we see a pattern developing here?

    The remainder (I did not read them all because you ask me to hurry and answer) seems to refer mostly to spirit creatures that are in fact the offspring of God and who have God as their father or progenitor.

    OK, I am still waiting for all these many scriptures where son = servant rather than son = male offspring.

    The Truth, et.al., please do not throw garbage you find laying around on the web at me. Please backup what you say.

    Opps! I just reread your post and find I miss read it to say hurry rather than what it really said “not in a hurry.”

    So, I read all those verses and they either refer to the spirit sons of God, again son = offspring and not son = servant, or they refer the nation of Israel, who were sons = offspring of God in a double sense. First in the same sense that we all owe our life to the Creator—therefore he is our Father. Second the sons of Jacob (Israel) owed there very existence to God in a way that hit closer to home because it was by the miracle birth of Isaac that they were eventually produced. Also the nation of Israel had been saved by God from Egypt and Pharaoh, and from the nations surrounding it that would have destroyed them if they could have and Israel owed him their life as a nation of people chosen to produce “the seed” and to be the main but not only worshippers of God, at least at that time.

    There was only one scripture out of all those scriptures where a good argument could be made that sons = servants: (Psalm 82:1-7)God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges: “How long will you keep on judging with injustice And showing partiality to the wicked themselves? 3 Be judges for the lowly one and the fatherless boy. To the afflicted one and the one of little means do justice. 4 Provide escape for the lowly one and the poor one; Out of the hand of the wicked ones deliver [them].” 5 They have not known, and they do not understand; In darkness they keep walking about; All the foundations of the earth are made to totter. 6 “I myself have said, ‘You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. 7 Surely you will die just as men do; And like any one of the princes you will fall!’” Also it can be argued quite effectively that even here the definition of son = offspring will work just as well.

    So all that work was done for one scripture that can go either way while all the rest clearly mean son = offspring and not son = servant. But that isn’t the worst of it! You and Qabandi are making all this fuss about the fact that son = servant in the Hebrew language—only one problem Jesus is called “son of God” in the Greek language used in the Greek Scriptures portion of the Bible. Oh well!

    Now let me finish by pointing out that when one relies totally on the Bible and what it really says there are no mysteries! Amos 3:7, BBE, “Certainly the Lord [Jehovah] will do nothing without making clear his secret to his servants, the prophets. So all those poor men that have wondered who is referred to in Genesis 6:1-2 had to do to find out was read the Bible and let it explain itself:

    (Job 1:6) Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.

    (Job 38:7) When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

    (1 Peter 3:19-20) In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

    (2 Peter 2:4) Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar´ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;

    (Jude 6) And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.

    The truth of the matter is that if you do not want to understand the Bible, you won’t, but if you do, you will.

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  4. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I don't know why you ignored my respond which is based in Quran.

    Allah is telling you this:

    Moreover, Who is (The Truth) to decide somthing huge like this issue about Jesus Christ (PBUH)? I'm not the one who can make a yes or no answer but i'm just like you excatly in term of lacking for the truth and for the right path all along together with studying the scripture and trying to see what Allah said about his prophet Jesus (PBUH).

    This is my answer and i'm waiting for you to tell me what is the most important about the miraclous birth of Jesus which we found out that it was the same as Adam (PBUH) according to the Quran.
     
  5. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I have no idea what kind of proof do you want?

    You asked for a proof and i gave you some christian thoughts and opnions about it BUT i was avoiding the anti-christians websites not as you think so about me and i only gave you what some christians writers say about this issue and also through EVIDENCE they have but not through assuming and guessing.

    Can you please tell me whether you can read hebrew or not? you seem so sure that what the guy was talking about is wrong just because ONLY you don't agree with him.
     
  6. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    BTW, Jesus Christ to you is a prophet, God or somthing else? please specify.
     
  7. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    You say: “Moreover, Who is (The Truth) to decide somthing huge like this issue about Jesus Christ (PBUH)? I'm not the one who can make a yes or no answer but i'm just like you excatly in term of lacking for the truth and for the right path all along together with studying the scripture and trying to see what Allah said about his prophet Jesus (PBUH).”

    Reply: Let me quote a Muslim’s comment made in the Quran vs. Bible thread, john313 said: “Allah gave (most) people the ability to reason and to distinguish right from wrong. which of the Lord's favors will you deny?”

    God gave us that ability to decide. Oh yes that ability can be abused and that abuse can be taken to either extreme. Either we reject what God has told us preferring to stick our wrong thinking and ideas over his clear signs and words recorded in his Word. That is just what the Jews did because Jesus refused to be their king and the kingdom he preached was not the one they wanted.

    Unfortunately, the Jews still refuse to accept what is said in the Law and the Prophets about Jesus and his ignominious death and the change from a special chosen physical nation made up of only Jews to a chosen special “nation,” a spiritual nation, one made up of all peoples, nations, tribes and tongues. Fleshly Israelites were given first opportunity to make up that new kingdom, “the Israel of God,” but it was, not long after, also opened up to ALL PEOPLE.

    Of course you deny all of the above because you deny that the Bible is the Word of God and even though the Torah, and the Psalms, and the Writings, and the Prophets are all “the same message and the same teachings” you chose to ignore it all and to follow in the footsteps of the Jews and you too not accept the truth about Jesus.

    The other extreme is to feign humility or to deliberately keep oneself ignorant because knowledge brings responsibility and the need for actions and changes that are scary to many people and so they prefer to do nothing wrongly thinking they will be able to get away with pleading ignorance.

    As john313 said: “Allah gave (most) people the ability to reason and to distinguish right from wrong. which of the Lord's favors will you deny?” So you see, The Truth, you can decide to give me a straight answer to a straight question but instead you obfuscate.

    The fact of the matter is just as I said before:



    Again, it was a miracle and it was a sign, we both agree to that, but it was no different than any of the other hundreds of miracles and signs that God provided in the case of Jesus. I understand what you said and what it means; I now have it figured out. It plays no greater role or has no greater significance in Islam, which is not the case in Christianity. I will show the meaning and significance to Christians once I get enough ducks in a row. But first we must settle some other issues first.

    You say: “I have no idea what kind of proof do you want?”

    Reply: I am sorry that you do not “get it” because I have told you and even given you examples. But I will try to explain it one more time.

    Abel is the first true worshipper worthy of redemption and salvation under the promise and hope provided by God at Genesis 3:15. Adam, Eve, and Cain all become apostates. True worship/religion remained virtually unchanged in the way it was practiced until the Exodus and the providing by God of the Torah, the beginning of the Bible, through the prophet Moses. Since there was no written record of God’s words to refer to and to use to prove the validity of what Moses was saying and to confirm the changes in practices that were being introduced, God used miracles and signs to show his favor on the new arrangements on the new practices to be followed by true worship/religion.

    However, God had already stated, even before Moses, how He intended to deal with is servants: Genesis 18:16-19 states, “Later the men got up from there and looked down toward Sod´om, and Abraham was walking with them to escort them. 17 And Jehovah said: “Am I keeping covered from Abraham what I am doing? 18 Why, Abraham is surely going to become a nation great and mighty, and all the nations of the earth must bless themselves by means of him. 19 For I have become acquainted with him in order that he may command his sons and his household after him so that they shall keep Jehovah’s way to do righteousness and judgment; in order that Jehovah may certainly bring upon Abraham what he has spoken about him.”

    So when God gave Moses all His words that He wanted written down and preserved it was with Genesis 3:15 in mind and with Genesis 18:16-19 in mind, for one of Abraham’s seed, through Isaac, was to become “the seed.” And it was also with mankind as a whole, including all the nations that came from all Abraham’s sons, in mind so that they could have hope and learn that they too were to bless themselves by means of Abraham’s seed. So a true and protected and preserved record of all those dealings and commands and promises and their fulfillments was needed to be kept and in fact was kept at God’s command eventually becoming the Bible. So even in the Law given to Moses there were prophecies leading to “the seed” and to Christianity.

    Later on God said through the prophet Amos at Amos 3:7, “Certainly, the Almighty LORD [Jehovah] doesn't do anything unless he first reveals his secret to his servants the prophets.” Again, starting with Abraham and again with Moses and all along right on down to Revelation where we find God doing the same thing: (Revelation 1:1) “A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John.”


    Continues below.
     
  8. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    OK HERE IS THE POINT: Remember how I have repeatedly talked about the history, continuity and unity of the word of God. This is what I am referring to: There is a continuous history with everything in God’s Word being built on what came before it. When God through Moses introduces a change from the practices of true worship/religion that had started with Abel and had been according to God’s instructions given to both Cain and Abel and that came to be passed on down through Noah and Abraham, those Mosaic practices were not a complete abrogation, reversal, or setting aside of everything that had come before and a starting from scratch with almost everything different. NO! To the contrary it can easily be seen why and how those changes in practice were the next step in working out the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15 and one can see how God is progressively revealing His plan to His servants. One can easily see how what God revealed to Moses was based on the true worship/religion that preceded it and that was first practiced by Abel. One can easily see how the Mosaic practices were actually built on and were a continuation of what came before from Noah and from Abraham. Again, there were no corrections issued—none were needed! Again, there was not criticism of what had come before and there were no major shifts or changes for what had come before had been the true worship/religion and was based on true doctrines and those basic doctrines did not change. All that happened was an increase in light! (Proverbs 4:18) “But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.”

    OK HERE IS THE POINT: That pattern also held true when again true worship/religion underwent another change in practices! Not only that, but in line with what God stated at Genesis 18:17-19, “And Jehovah said: “Am I keeping covered from Abraham what I am doing? 18 Why, Abraham is surely going to become a nation great and mighty, and all the nations of the earth must bless themselves by means of him. 19 For I have become acquainted with him in order that he may command his sons and his household after him so that they shall keep Jehovah’s way to do righteousness and judgment; in order that Jehovah may certainly bring upon Abraham what he has spoken about him.” And in line with what God had recorded at Amos 3:7, “Certainly, the Almighty LORD [Jehovah] doesn't do anything unless he first reveals his secret to his servants the prophets.” We find that the changes were prophesied beforehand. Yes, starting in the Torah and continuing throughout the whole of the Hebrew Scriptures there are prophecies that foretell the changes that were to be made to the practices of true worship/religion when the Messiah arrived and also of changes that will be made but have not yet been fully fulfilled. Yes only by going back and studying and understanding the Hebrew Scriptures can true Christianity be know and understood. Christianity did not change the basic truths that were the basis for Abel’s worship. Christianity did not change the truths of true worship/religion that was practiced by all true worshippers from Moses down to Jesus. Jesus himself was a practicing Jew. That is how he fulfilled the law—he obeyed it perfectly. I mentioned all of this before but it did not sink in so I will go through it again:

    One example out of many of where God told that the Covenant with Israel would be replaced by a “new covenant”: (Jeremiah 31:31-34) “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 32 not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”

    33 “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.” 34 “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.”

    The first part of that prophecy has been fulfilled but the latter part has not been completely fulfilled. Please explain to me how it is that God can do away with “the Book of Enlightenment” when as of now there are still unfulfilled prophecies contained in it? Such a thing is not possible!! Therefore neither Jesus nor his followers, the Christians, rejected the Hebrew Scriptures for almost everything their “new religion” believed and taught was based on it and was taught directly from its pages.

    Again, what attitude did Jesus display toward the Hebrew Scriptures? It is an attitude 180 degrees opposite of that displayed by Mohammed and his followers! At Matthew 5:17, quoted from several Bibles so that you can get the full flavor of meaning of the words he used, here is what Jesus said:

    (AMP) Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.

    (Darby) Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil.

    (GNB) "Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true.

    (GW) "Don't ever think that I came to set aside Moses' Teachings or the Prophets. I didn't come to set them aside but to make them come true.

    (LITV) Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill.

    (MRC) "Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

    (MSG) "Don't suppose for a minute that I have come to demolish the Scriptures--either God's Law or the Prophets. I'm not here to demolish but to complete. I am going to put it all together, pull it all together in a vast panorama. (Remember what I said about continuity and about picture puzzles with holes?)

    (NIRV) "Do not think I have come to get rid of what is written in the Law or in the Prophets. I have not come to do that. Instead, I have come to give full meaning to what is written.

    (WNT) "Do not for a moment suppose that I have come to abrogate the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abrogate them but to give them their completion.



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  9. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    Jesus, his disciples, and almost all of and the Jews that listened to Jesus knew the above prophecy, Jeremiah 31:31-34. Because of that prophecy and also many others like it (but not included here for the sake of brevity), the Jews were expecting the Messiah to appear when he did and were even expecting him to make changes. But does Jesus condemn the then existing portions of the Bible? Does he start setting parts of it aside and claim they are corrupt and untrustworthy? That is what the Quran repeatedly does as it teaches abrogation—not so Jesus and his followers. Note what they did:

    (Luke 4:16-17) “And he [Jesus] came to Naz´a·reth, where he had been reared; and, according to his custom on the sabbath day, he entered into the synagogue, and he stood up to read. 17 So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: . . .”

    (Acts 8:30-35) Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” 31 He said: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him. 32 Now the passage of Scripture that he was reading aloud was this: “As a sheep he was brought to the slaughter, and as a lamb that is voiceless before its shearer, so he does not open his mouth. 33 During his humiliation the judgment was taken away from him. Who will tell the details of his generation? Because his life is taken away from the earth.” 34 In answer the eunuch said to Philip: “I beg you, About whom does the prophet say this? About himself or about some other man?” 35 Philip opened his mouth and, starting with this Scripture, he declared to him the good news about Jesus.

    (Acts 17:2-3) “. . .So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures [the Hebrew Scriptures], 3 explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and [saying]: “This is the Christ, this Jesus whom I am publishing to you.”

    Again, the way Jesus and his disciples and apostles taught true worship/religion, Christianity, was right out of the Hebrew Scriptures! In doing so their actions and attitudes displayed a true respect for the Word of God. They never claimed that God could not or had not protected His Word’s and therefore they had to abrogate it, set it aside and issue corrections. What effrontery that would have been on their part! Yet the Quran, Islam, and Muslims seem to do just that!

    OK HERE IS THE POINT: You asked the question, “I have no idea what kind of proof do you want?” My answer is very simple! I want answers and proofs that are consistent with the pattern set by God himself and followed by his true worshippers throughout the entire Bible. I want proof based on the truths that true worship/religion has always been based on—the same truths that Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus based their worship/religion on. Truths found in the Bible! None of those true worshippers rejected the Word of God! No they based their worship/religion on it. Again, do you remember how I have repeatedly talked about the history, continuity and unity of the word of God? I want proofs that respect those things and that are consistent with those things. And I for sure want proofs that harmonize with what the Bible has always taught. If God is behind your beliefs then you should have no problems going to his Word the Bible and proving your beliefs to me just as Jesus went to the Hebrew Scriptures to prove what his beliefs were.

    The right way to covert a Jew into a Christian was demonstrated by Paul at Acts 28:23-24: “They now arranged for a day with him, and they came in greater numbers to him in his lodging place. And he explained the matter to them by bearing thorough witness concerning the kingdom of God and by using persuasion with them concerning Jesus from both the law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some began to believe the things said; others would not believe.” Again, did Paul refer to the New Testament? NO! He used the Jews own Bible (his Bible too by the way) and showed them where God, following the pattern started by Him with Abraham and repeated by Amos, had revealed his plans beforehand! In fact God had revealed the vast majority of what Christianity was to be in the Old Testament and that is what Paul used.

    I hope you now understand and I hope you do right by me in showing me Islam from the Bible just as Jesus taught Christianity from the Old Testament. I am going to repeat it one more time just to make sure that you “get it” and understand what I want in the way of proof and why I want it. From Abel to Jesus nothing really changed other than the light got brighter. The true doctrines did not change. When God gave Moses the Torah it did not undo or change anything that Abel, Noah and Abraham had believed but only added to it and provided new details, new light. Those three would have immediately recognized their worship and beliefs it the Torah’s “new laws and practices.” Likewise, when the Messiah, Jesus, appeared on the scene he did not reject all of God’s Words and the truths that had always been part of true worship. No he simply added new light to them and showed where there was something additional called for in the Law that no one but he could provide. And then he went on to provide it. And then he required that his followers provide it also.

    You say:



    Reply: No I do not read Hebrew nor do I read Greek. I do not need to! There are and have been many learned people that devoted their entire lives to learning those languages and they have put their knowledge in books and they have taught others and so on for thousands of years now. Many have also put their knowledge to use in translating those languages into English and thus we have a very accurate rendering of God’s Words found in almost all translations. And the translations are many and varied. But by comparing several of the best of those translations I can arrive at a pretty good idea of what the original said. On thing is certain if words actually are interchangeable as you and others claim then it should not be hard to find a translation that makes that substitution or interchange. So don’t waste your time and energy searching the web for something that agrees with what you say—that proves nothing. Instead read and study the Bible. And show me where the words son and servant are interchangeable. If it is a common as you claim it should be no problem to find.

    I have 50+ different Bible translations available to me in actual book form and mostly in digital form on my computer and/or on the web. I have no idea how many Arabic translations there are but I would suggest that you download as many as you find and then compare them (just as I am doing by quoting from different English versions of the Quran, doing so really helps me to understand). No doubt there are web sites that you can use also.

    The Truth, you must get it through your head that I reject false doctrines from any and all sources. Like you I know that the Trinity is a false doctrine and anyone that believes it does not have God’s backing and holy spirit. If they do not have God’s backing and holy spirit I am not likely to seriously consider anything they have to say, so why waste your time? Again, have I gone out into the vast trash heap called the Internet collecting garbage to throw at you? No, I have not and I would appreciate it if you would show me the same courtesy. Is that too much to ask? My questions are of my own devising and based on my reading in the Quran and related materials.



    Continues below.
     
  10. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    Perhaps an illustration will help you understand. I do not know who the religious enemies of Mohammed were so I will use what I know—Jesus and his religious enemies.

    Joseph Caiaphas was the High Priest that schemed Jesus’ death. He was the son-in-law of High Priest Annas who also participated in the conspiracy against Jesus. No doubt you know who Judas Iscariot is, the betrayer of Jesus? Well if those men had written best-seller tell-all exposé books about Jesus or his followers and especially about Jesus’ teachings and doctrines, do you think that those books would be a good source of accurate and fair information about Jesus and what he taught? Not likely! About 90% of what you find on the Internet falls into that category in my opinion. Again, do you want me to go find the site of some sect of Islam that is completely different from what you believe and then try to use what they say against you claiming, “Well, it was a Muslim site!” Claiming that what they say is your belief and then using it as part of my argument against you and what you believe? Not the smart or the fair thing to do, is it? You need to learn to be more of a scholar.

    Again, I am not trying to insult or berate you so let me tell you again how I would have done it if I were you. I would refer to all the translations I could find where educated and sincere persons who have gone to all the effort to produce a good translation of the Bible use the words interchangeably and then show me where those different translations use the words son and servant interchangeably. If it is a common as you claim it should not be problem to find.

    Finally, you still are missing the point! Jesus is called the Son of God in Greek not Hebrew so why are we even discussing son = servant in Hebrew? So what! Even if it did interchange in Hebrew how would that apply to Greek?

    You ask: “BTW, Jesus Christ to you is a prophet, God or somthing else? please specify.

    Reply: Just as you have referred me to web sites for answers and have copied material from web sites to use in your arguments—so do I, this time. Please follow this link for your answer.



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  11. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    :eek: :eek: :eek: WHAT ???

    Please don't put words in my mouth.

    I believe in the Torah, Injil, Psalms, Quran and all the other books which i know or i don't know and that only means that i believe in all the holy sciptures of God but NOT the human one and NOT the translations BUT ONLY the original one.

    I think my answer is so clear now.




    Sorry to say that but you are contradicting yourself because sometimes you say, you are like the jewish and you reject Jesus and sometimes you say WE BOTH KNOW AND AGREE????? :bonk:

    Please before you explain to me you have to know that i don't believe in the current bible because it has many errors and many contradictions which means there is a role for human beings in writing it (without inspiration). I believe in the original Gospel and in the things i find in the bible which may be right BUT NOT ALL.

    Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) said about it: Don't accept it all and don't reject it all.

    by the way, as long as you are providing evidance from Quran supporting your answers so is that means you believe in the Quran as the word of God and prophet Moahmmed as the last Messenger as the bible itself said about him?
     
  12. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Of course he had to do so because God sent him to sons of Israel ONLY.



    You can't decide for God what he want and what he don't and it's normal that there are still some unfulfill prophecies that's because Jesus Christ is alive and he will come back again to fulfill it.

    Mohammed (PBUH) also came to fulfill but please don't mix up things because Torah and Injil were for sons of Israel but Quran was for the entire human beings.

    Please proof for me that Moahmmed (PBUH) rejected the law of Moses (Torah) or the gospel of Jesus (Injil) but NOT the gospel of Paul.

    I'll give an example of what Moahmmed (PBUH) did with some jewish as a proof that he didn't reject as you claimed without any evidance.

    Once a jew comitted an adultry and they brought him to Prophet Moahmmed (PBUH) and he asked them to bring thier scripture to make a judgment about it according to it. Then, they brought the scripture and he asked them to read the punishment for adultry as it stated in the scripture then the jew who was reading was hiding some words by his fingers because it contains "Put him to death" as the Torah said. Then one of Prophet Moahmmed's follower was a jew and he told prophet Mohammed that the one who is reading is hiding somthing. Then, he took his finger from that particular verse and the plain truth was there..."putting to death" then they put the jew to death.

    This story means is so important because it shows that Prophet Moahmmed (PBUH) confirmed the Torah & Injil not rejecting it as you claim without any evidance.

    46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

    47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

    48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

    49. And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah.s purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.(Quran-Surah 5)

    The only problem we have is not the Torah or Injil itself but the vain desires and turning away from what Allah sayas.
     
  13. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Please again and again i'm telling you that the Quran DO NOT reject the gospel of Jesus or the Torah of Moses neither any other book of God because the one who revealed the Quran is same one who revealed the other holy books so it's non-sense for God almighty to reject his books but he told us to reject the false words attached to the gospel of Jesus "Injil" but he didn't reject the gospel itself. Got it?


    Please provide somthing of what our lovely prophet Jesus Christ (PBUH) said but not what any other people said like Paul the same with me when i provide the things that either God said or Prophet Moahmmed (PBUH) said. Therefore, Tell me God said and Jesus said but NOT Paul said .....

    Please read the above and understand it well that Islam dosn't reject it but reject the fabriacted things within it.

    Are you saying that Abel, Noah, Abraham believed in the bible before even the Torah was existed at that time? Correct me if i'm mistaken. There was no such thing called the Bible when Jesus was on earth but there was Torah and Injil (The orginal version) and the prophets you mentioned like Abraham and the rest they weren't at that time when Torah and Injil was revealed to Moses and Jesus.



    1- My beliefs are based in Quran but not in the bible and i have everything in the Quran.
    2- I don't have to prove my beliefs to you according to somthing i believe there are many mistakes and fabricated things in it.
    3- I already proved things that is so clear about Moahmmed in the bible and you knew it already.


    The case with Jesus is different that Moahmmed because Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel but NOT to all people and i know that there are things in the bible that show that Jesus was for all people and you don't have to post it again because i believe that Jesus himself never claim that by himself but maybe others may conclude that by thier own and i can't depend in assumptions and guessing. I ONLY believe in what Jesus Christ said ONLY.



    I agree with you :)



    I don't depend in the english translations for the Quran for example because it's the work of human beings to make the people who don't know arabic to understand and it may have wrong things that they may misunderstand it while translating so for your own sake don't depend in what human beings do but only in God's REAL words.

    I believe in the arabic original Quran but the translations is ONLY for explaining. So, the arabic Quran is the word of God but the english one for example is not .. it's humanic work.

    For you too, I believe that the Torah and Injil are the REAL word of God but i don't trust the translations because they may made many errors in it because simply ther are HUMAN BEINGS. That's why i don't believe in the entire bible as a whole as the word of God but as the translation of the word of God.

    By the way, What if i found out that there are contradictions in the bible and a version may be different than the other so what do you say about that?
     
  14. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    First of all, thanks for the website and it explained for me many things about what you believe in and i don't know why you hate websites.:D

    Secondly,This website shows that you believe that Jesus was a spirit in the sky and he had a great power before God sent him to the womb of Mary.

    Please proof all this for me.
     
  15. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,



    You are asking me to do the impossible!

    The “proof” is in the Bible and you reject what the Bible says. You say you believe do but you really don’t.

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  16. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Please don't try to go for the *so called* don't believe in it so you don't need it.

    Again i ask you to bring your prrof, evidence that Jesus is the same as that website calim using any verse in the bible but if you couldn't so sorry to say that you may be mistaken of what you believe in because it's simply groundless.
     
  17. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20)

    So God will only send Jesus to the sons of Israel in today's day and age?

    Carry on.
     
  18. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    Malus01,

    Yes Jesus was sent first to the sons of Israel but NOT ONLY to them. The following command proves that his message was for all people.

    “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations” is something Jesus was telling them/us to do right then/now but they were also to continue doing it “even to the end of the age.”

    Matthew 24:14 helps us to understand that there are two sides to that activity, “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” Besides making disciples that activity allows people to choose, to make up their minds based on the witness or testimony it provides. When enough people have made up their minds about God and his kingdom then the end will come.

    So it was not only for “the end of the age” but it does take on increased importance then. Hope that answers your question.


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