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What do Muslims think of Jesus?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by flysky, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The next hint of the lineage is found at Genesis 49:10, “. . .The scepter will not turn aside from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shi´loh comes; and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong.”

    Another was God’s promise made to King David at 2 Samuel 7:12, “When your days come to the full, and you must lie down with your forefathers, then I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom.” After that promise to King David there were many prophecies that deal with the “seed,” now understood to be a king from the tribe of Judah and a descendant of King David:

    (1 Chronicles 17:14) And I will cause him to stand in my house and in my kingship to time indefinite, and his throne will itself become one lasting to time indefinite.”’”

    (Psalm 45:6) God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever; The scepter of your kingship is a scepter of uprightness.

    (Psalm 89:36) His seed itself will prove to be even to time indefinite, And his throne as the sun in front of me.

    (Daniel 2:44) “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;

    Point of clarification: Even though the Mosaic Law seemed to be only for the Jews it was not! I have already mentioned the actions of Jehovah and Jesus that showed that the guidance, the provisions, and benefits, both in word and deed, flowed to any and everyone that submitted to it. The guidance of God that began at Genesis 3:15 and applied to ALL MEN was still available to all men. Nothing had changed that!

    Now was Jesus sent only to the Jews? Let us see what the Prophets say about the one coming:

    (Isaiah 2:2) And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream.

    (Isaiah 11:10) And it must occur in that day that there will be the root of Jes´se that will be standing up as a signal for the peoples. To him even the nations will turn inquiringly, and his resting-place must become glorious.

    (Isaiah 40:5) And the glory of Jehovah will certainly be revealed, and all flesh must see [it] together, for the very mouth of Jehovah has spoken [it].”

    (Isaiah 42:6) “I myself, Jehovah, have called you in righteousness, and I proceeded to take hold of your hand. And I shall safeguard you and give you as a covenant of the people, as a light of the nations,

    (Isaiah 49:6) And he proceeded to say: “It has been more than a trivial matter for you to become my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back even the safeguarded ones of Israel; I also have given you for a light of the nations, that my salvation may come to be to the extremity of the earth

    (Isaiah 52:10) Jehovah has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth must see the salvation of our God.

    There are literally hundreds of prophecies that apply to Jesus and a great many of them, probably most of them, indicate that He was being sent to more than just the Jews.

    Let me repeat what I have said before: Again there are very many revelations and prophecies that further clarify how God was working out and fulfilling Genesis 3:15. One outstanding prophecy is found at Daniel 9:24-27. Daniel’s prophecy sets the timetable for the appearance of the Messiah, the primary Seed, and for his death not to mention the end of the Mosaic arrangement and the cutting off of the nation of Israel including the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Note Luke 3:15-16, “Now as the people were in expectation and all were reasoning in their hearts about John: “May he perhaps be the Christ?”” The reason why they “all” were in “expectation” and were “reasoning in their hearts about John” and “the Christ” was that it was time for him to appear and they understood that fact because they knew the Scriptures. The main point you need to know is that the ‘most favored nation’ status enjoyed by Israel was to continue only until the time set by God in that prophecy.

    The fact that God was working things out for the benefit of all nations or peoples is evident even in the prophecies foretelling the Messiah such as: Isaiah 55:3-4, “Look! As a witness to the national groups I have given him, as a leader and commander to the national groupsDaniel 7:14, “And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.” And John 3:16, “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”

    Again, what that means is that Jesus was sent primarily, but not exclusively, and for a short time only to Israel so as to fulfill promises made to Abraham, Judah, David and others and so as to fulfill certain prophecies. He was not sent forever and totally exclusively to the Jews only. Any claim to that effect flies in the face of what the Bible says and what Jesus and his Father actually did in practice! Note Matthew 15:21-28: “Leaving there, Jesus now withdrew into the parts of Tyre and Si´don. 22 And, look! a Phoe·ni´cian woman from those regions came out and cried aloud, saying: “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David. My daughter is badly demonized.” 23 But he did not say a word in answer to her. So his disciples came up and began to request him: “Send her away; because she keeps crying out after us.” 24 In answer he said: “I was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 When the woman came she began doing obeisance to him, saying: “Lord, help me!” 26 In answer he said: “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to little dogs.” 27 She said: “Yes, Lord; but really the little dogs do eat of the crumbs falling from the table of their masters.” 28 Then Jesus said in reply to her: “O woman, great is your faith; let it happen to you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed from that hour on.” There are other examples like this also. The point is: What did he actually do? Point made, enough said! But it did not end there.

    Continues below.
     
  2. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    What did Jesus command that his followers should do? (Matthew 24:14) “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 28:18-20) “And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Acts 1:8) “but you will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de´a and Sa·mar´i·a and to the most distant part of the earth

    Now let me made my point clear to you. From Genesis 3:15 on God provided guidance to ALL MEN. Even though God favored certain mean and their descendants with being in the lineage of the “seed,” the “seed” was sent to ALL MEN and for the BENEFIT OF ALL MEN.

    The Quran may say Jesus was sent to only the Jews but the Bible does not!

    You say: “Abraham has 2 sosn ... No?

    what about the second one?? he never existed? or you just forgot about him?

    Don't you think in the begining of the Genesis 3:15 it was talking about the ONLY son of Abraham?

    you see now why i have doubts about the Bible?


    why they just swallowed Isshaq the first son of Abraham???

    the seed of Abraham contain sons of Israel and the Arabs too.”

    Answer: I have already explained this above but I do not mind reviewing it again to make sure that you understand. Genesis chapter 17:

    17When A´bram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to A´bram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless. 2 And I will give my covenant between me and you, that I may multiply you very, very much.”

    3 At this A´bram fell upon his face, and God continued to speak with him, saying: 4 “As for me, look! my covenant is with you, and you will certainly become a father of a crowd of nations. 5 And your name will not be called A´bram anymore, and your name must become Abraham, because a father of a crowd of nations I will make you. 6 And I will make you very, very fruitful and will make you become nations, and kings will come out of you.

    7 “And I will carry out my covenant between me and you and your seed after you according to their generations for a covenant to time indefinite, to prove myself God to you and to your seed after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your seed after you the land of your alien residences, even the entire land of Ca´naan, for a possession to time indefinite; and I will prove myself God to them.” [That is not highlighted because it applies to anything going on today, it does not! The natural, fleshly nation of Israel was replaced by a spiritual nation. When that happened God allowed the physical nation and its temple, etc. to be destroyed. However, the reason I highlighted this is because it plainly says that God would give a covenant and also the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed. Ishmael left Canaan and did not return. The covenant and the “seed” lineage came through the ones that took possession of the land of Canaan, the descendants of Isaac. Those Christians, Jews, and Muslims that believe that possession of the land of Canaan at this late date will gain them favor with God are very much mistaken. Again, the “seed” came through the son miraculously provided by God. But do not take my word for it, note what else is said:] . . .

    15 And God went on to say to Abraham: “As for Sar´ai your wife, you must not call her name Sar´ai, because Sarah is her name. 16 And I will bless her and also give you a son from her; and I will bless her and she shall become nations; kings of peoples will come from her.” 17 At this Abraham fell upon his face and began to laugh and to say in his heart: “Will a man a hundred years old have a child born, and will Sarah, yes, will a woman ninety years old give birth?”

    18 After that Abraham said to the [true] God: “O that Ish´ma·el might live before you!” 19 To this God said: “Sarah your wife is indeed bearing you a son, and you must call his name Isaac. And I will establish my covenant with him for a covenant to time indefinite to his seed after him. 20 But as regards Ish´ma·el I have heard you. Look! I will bless him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him very, very much. He will certainly produce twelve chieftains, and I will make him become a great nation. 21 However, my covenant I shall establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this appointed time next year

    Now note Genesis chapter 21:

    8 Now the child kept growing and came to be weaned; and Abraham then prepared a big feast on the day of Isaac’s being weaned. 9 And Sarah kept noticing the son of Ha´gar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, poking fun. 10 So she began to say to Abraham: “Drive out this slave girl and her son, for the son of this slave girl is not going to be an heir with my son, with Isaac!” 11 But the thing proved to be very displeasing to Abraham as regards his son. 12 Then God said to Abraham: “Do not let anything that Sarah keeps saying to you be displeasing to you about the boy and about your slave girl. Listen to her voice, because it is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be. 13 And as for the son of the slave girl, I shall also constitute him a nation, because he is your offspring.”

    14 So Abraham got up early in the morning and took bread and a skin water bottle and gave it to Ha´gar, setting it upon her shoulder, and the child, and then dismissed her. And she went her way and wandered about in the wilderness of Be´er-she´ba. 15 Finally the water became exhausted in the skin bottle and she threw the child under one of the bushes. 16 Then she went on and sat down by herself, about the distance of a bowshot away, because she said: “Let me not see it when the child dies.” So she sat down at a distance and began to raise her voice and weep.

    17 At that God heard the voice of the boy, and God’s angel called to Ha´gar out of the heavens and said to her: “What is the matter with you, Ha´gar? Do not be afraid, because God has listened to the voice of the boy there where he is. 18 Get up, lift up the boy and take hold of him with your hand, because I shall constitute him a great nation.” 19 Then God opened her eyes so that she caught sight of a well of water; and she went and began to fill the skin bottle with water and to give the boy a drink. 20 And God continued to be with the boy, and he kept growing and dwelling in the wilderness; and he became an archer. 21 And he took up dwelling in the wilderness of Pa´ran, and his mother proceeded to take a wife for him from the land of Egypt.

    God saved Ishmael and he was blessed with fathering nations, but he was not the one through whom the “seed” came.

    Continues below.
     
  3. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    Now note Genesis 22:18 and the surrounding verse that are so conveniently ignore when Muslims talk about it:

    (Genesis 22:15-18) And Jehovah’s angel proceeded to call to Abraham the second time out of the heavens 16 and to say: “‘By myself I do swear,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld your son, your only one [Isaac], 17 I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed [through Isaac] will take possession of the gate of his enemies. 18 And by means of your seed [through Isaac] all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.’”

    Ishmael was already long gone at this time! There is no way the verse refers to Ishmael!

    You say: “they should put thier nose because Christ "The Massiah" was sent to them ONLY.
    but Mohammed was sent to ALL


    Answer: NOT SO! See above!

    You say: “can you tell me why the verse from 9:21 until 9:23 dosn't existed in the new international version?

    http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/...-27;&version=31;

    are they trying to hide somthing or they take it out because they don;t believe in it?

    Do you know now why i have my doubts about the bible?

    Answer: NOT SO!! I do not know what you were smoking when you came up with that one but I would suggest you lay off of it till your head clears up!

    You say: “We can see in (John 1:20-21):

    1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
    1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? and he saith, I am not. Art thou
    that prophet? And he answered, No.
    and:
    1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither
    that prophet.

    If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, the we will find in the marginal note where the words "the Prophet", or "that Prophet" occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that 'that prophet' - 'the prophet like Moses' - "LIKE UNTO THEE", we have proved through overwhelming evidence that he was MUHUMMED.

    Answer: The Truth, slow down and take a breath you must be hyperventilating and getting light in the head. Please Read John 1:19 and you will see that John the Baptist is the one speaking and that denies being “the prophet” and “the Christ.” Again we see that you can only see what you want to see where the Bible is concerned. And it has nothing to do with truth and facts! How does John not being “the prophet” and “the Christ” suddenly become that Jesus was not, especially when the Quran also says that Jesus was?

    You say: “Jesus was sent for the sheep of Israel >> what is this statment talking about?

    Answer: In prophecy, and in deed we can see Jesus was sent to all. The Jews first but almost immediately (certainly not 600 years later) true worship/religion was opened to ALL MEN. See above.

    You say: “That's why i want you to help me out to correct me if you don't mind.”

    Answer: I will try but I need your help!! Please slow down and get your facts straight before you start running off at the mouth.

    Also, we need to deal only one or two questions at a time. We need to come to some conclusions and hopefully agreements. If not, then we can agree to disagree but at least we will have exhausted that question before we try tackling another question.

    .
     
  4. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    I just noticed i missed one of your replies. There must me a better way to do this. Please wait for my reply to your last reply-- Sorry!
     
  5. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    You say: “I wish brother HOGCALLER to stick to the topic because i don't want to turn out our debating into insulting each other, our backgrounds and nations.”

    The Truth, you have my sincere apology if you think I was trying to be insulting in anyway—I was not! I am from Texas and we often say that (“your part of the world”) to anybody that is not Texan. It is not such much an insult to you as a brag on Texas. It is a commonly used statement that I should not have used with you. Again, my mistake and I am sorry.

    You say: “So, you mean after they ate from that tree they died??

    i see the story of the tree according to what Quran said and check my pervious post.”


    Answer: Both Adam and Eve are dead and long gone, correct? So, yes they died as the punishment for their disobedience. Please note:

    (Exodus 32:33-35) However, Jehovah said to Moses: “Whoever has sinned against me, I shall wipe him out of my book [of life]. 34 And now, come, lead the people to where I have spoken to you of. Look! My angel will go ahead of you, and on the day of my bringing punishment I shall certainly bring punishment upon them for their sin.” 35 And Jehovah began plaguing the people [so that they died] because they had made the calf, which Aaron had made.

    The punishment was death.

    (Numbers 16:28-30) 28 Then Moses said: “By this you will know that Jehovah has sent me to do all these deeds, that it is not of my own heart: 29 If it is according to the death of all mankind that these people will die and with the punishment of all mankind that punishment will be brought upon them, then it is not Jehovah that has sent me. 30 But if it is something created that Jehovah will create, and the ground has to open its mouth and swallow up them and everything that belongs to them and they have to go down alive into She´ol, you will then know for certain that these men have treated Jehovah disrespectfully.”

    Again, “the punishment of all mankind” = natural death. “Something created that Jehovah will create” = an unnatural death that meant God’s disfavor. But either way, death = punishment.

    The Truth, way back in this post http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/index.php?referrerid=929 you made a statement that I let slip by and it probably has much to do with why we are not coming to any agreements.

    You said: “I think i have to make things clear for you by what do i mean for example that the holy bible may not be as the orginal one in hebrew.”

    Obviously, you are not going to accept or believe anything from the Bible if you truly believe what you say in that statement. So that belief is a big obstacle in the way of us walking the path together.

    Obviously you have a good reason for thinking that God cannot or did not protect his word? Would you please share it with me?

    By not preserving and protecting his own words was he not showing weakness? And was not the effect for mankind the same as playing a cruel game where the rules are always changing and are not fixed and reliable?

    What is to prevent another “new prophet” from coming along and claiming that He did it again and that “God” has come in touch with him and given him another set of Scriptures?

    Why did God leave mankind without reliable guidance until A.D. 6__ , if forgot the years, when the Quran was written down and organized into the form it is now? Why did He allow mankind to remain ignorant of His true wishes, commands and ways for so long?

    By allowing mankind to go so long without correct and reliable guidance did he not open himself up to criticism that He is responsible for the mess we find in the world? If only we had had guidance sooner! Things would have been better and more people would have been true believers if we had been given the guidance earlier.

    Please answer the above before the other replies I posted. Surely I did not answer everything you asked and need to give you an answer or a better answer. With your agreement, I would like to stop and go back and clear up points we both have passed over by moving along too quickly. Is that OK with you?

    .
     
  6. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Don't worry about it.

    It's ok :)
     
  7. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    by the way, tell me when you are ready as i did so with you. :)
     
  8. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    I caught up in my last post and I am ready now. I would like to slow down a little.
     
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  9. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I can't see what you can see in these two verses because it's base in your own understanding which is not clear at all there.




    ok.



    Do you mean this verse?

    15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    I gave you already a verse in Quran which is similar to this one even more accurate so can you please tell me how did the Quran ignored this prophecy?

    He said: 'Get ye down, both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.'


    Surah 20 Verses 123

    I don't know actually what do you mean by saying it's not in Quran. just please explain this prophecy if you are not satisfied yet with my answer.

    First of all, you have to know that Jesus recieved the Injeel by God but not the bible.
    secondly, Jesus was sent because the Jewish twisted thier religion and got corrupted. On the other hand, Mohammed (PBUH) was sent to the whole world until the hereafter because after Jesus people didn't keep what Jesus teached them.

    So, now i'll tell you about your question...

    Offerings/sacrifices involving shed blood.


    [3] Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject Faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    [4] They ask thee what is lawful to them (as food). Say: Lawful unto you are (all) things good and pure: and what ye have taught your trained hunting animals (to catch) in the manner directed to you by Allah: eat what they catch for you, but pronounce the name of Allah over it: and fear Allah; for Allah is swift in taking account.


    [5] This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are Believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time, when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues. If any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

    (Quran 5:3-5)

    The required services of priests and priesthoods that mediate between God and man.

    In Islam there are no priests to be between man and God but you can contact directly with God and clean yourself from sins through praying to God and asking him to forgive you and God told us that as long as we ask for forgivness so he will forgive us whatever we do. This is the greatness of Islam.


    -The restoration of Paradise on earth not in Heaven.

    I couldn't understand this one. Can you give me an example froma the bible "a verse" concerning about this one?








    - a new covenant ,
    - I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it.

    Even though christians believe these verses you mentioned refer to Jesus but it didn't say anything about Jesus according to a normal reader because his name wasn't mention there so he may be Jesus and he may be another one. (I know that God sent Jesus to the Jewish) but i'm just saying that it is not clear there.

    If this right then why the Jewish rejected Jesus? Can you please explain for me?

     
  10. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Why according to Paul and Jesus's diciples but not according to Jesus himself?




    one simple question ...

    Do you believe that the OT is absuloutly right and you still following what is written there, all of it?

    just answer this question then everything will be clear 100%.



    What is paul doing in here side by side with Jesus? He didn't even meet him while he was on the earth.

    Personally, i see no proof that you should follow what paul say.

     
  11. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I'm sorry too because i misunderstand you and your apology is accepted.








    So you don't believe in hell ? O.K.

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The original "Authorized Version" of the King James Bible contained the word "Hell" only 54 times from Genesis to Revelation. The New King James Bible contained the word "Hell" only 32 times and the American Standard and New American Standard (both revisions of the KJV) only 13 times.[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There are literally scores of Bible translations which do NOT contain the word "Hell" even ONCE! What's going on? The answer is really obvious, except to those who insist on hanging onto "traditions of men." (Matt. 15:6-9) The scholarship of the Reformation period was just a few steps out of the Dark Ages.[/font]
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Bible translations from this era were simply bad from the point of view of today's understanding of the original languages of the Bible. Our greater understanding of the manners and customs of the peoples living during the Biblical period have also given us greater understanding of the meaning of many obscure passages of scriptures. Light is coming to what has been "traditionally" still in darkness.[/font]
    please check these links: http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellScholars.htm

    and http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

    http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html

    All these are non-Muslims website and it's pure christian websites and i hope that you can read all these links before you answer me.




    This link you just posted lead me to the home page of Rf? what do you mean by that?:confused:
    I guess you didn't put the right link.



    Do you mean for example that i can't change my bible i have in my room?
    I did it and i changed it to see what will happen to me but nothing happened.:D

    What if a king changed it and forced it to his people?

    You do not have to say these asumption of the weakness of God because no one can change the original word of God but we can change any bible we have in our hands.

    Believe there is no magic in the bible and you can try it out and use a pencil to change your bible and nothing will happen to you.

    Quran is the same thing and anyone can change the copy he has but the problem is that Quran has it's own unique style that any normal muslim will know that you changed somthing in his Quran in case you did so and this is what Allah has promised us to save his Quran. (not by magic or hidden power but by the miracle of it which is it's own style that not similar to any) and i mean the original arabic Quran not the humanic translations.


     
  12. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I didn't answer all of your questions but we have to settle this issue i mention in my pervious post then we can go on.

    So, i'm ready now. :)
     
  13. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    I was very busy the past few days and I am just now starting to work on a reply. Sorry for the delay. I will post a reply as soon as I can.
     
  14. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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  15. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    even though the link is not correct again but i went to post # 51 and i got your point.

    waiting for you and it's ok if you were busy. Just take your time because we are not in a hurry.:)
     
  16. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    You say:“Do you mean this verse?

    15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    I gave you already a verse in Quran which is similar to this one even more accurate so can you please tell me how did the Quran ignored this prophecy?

    He said: 'Get ye down, both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.'



    Surah 20 Verses 123


    I don't know actually what do you mean by saying it's not in Quran. just please explain this prophecy if you are not satisfied yet with my answer.”


    Answer: The Truth, the Word of God does not need correction therefore you cannot provide truth that is truer than the truth. The Bible does not need the Quran to correct it, period end of paragraph! It is slanderous to resist or “neglect” the Word of God by saying it needs correction. That is what the words “satan” and “devil” mean. That is how the Evil One works. Subtly creating doubt that God’s words cannot be trusted, just as he did with Eve. That is also how the Quran is toward the Bible, why is that?

    I have provided short answers but the pieces provided in the short answers apparently have not come together in your mind so the you comprehend and understand what I have told you regarding Genesis 3:15. Hopefully the following will rectify that situation.

    God wants all his creatures but especially his servants to be happy and he provides many sound reasons for them to be so. Thus, at one of the blackest moments in human history—the rebellion in Eden—he provided the basis for us to look to the future with hope. (Compare Romans 8:19-21.)

    Let us quickly review what happened: One of Jehovah’s spirit sons, by resisting and slandering God, had just made himself into Satan the Devil. The first humans, Eve and then Adam, had fallen under his influence and had violated Jehovah’s clearly stated law regarding “the tree of knowledge.” They were all justly sentenced to death. (Genesis 3:1-24) Yet, when pronouncing judgment on these rebels, Jehovah provided a basis for hope for the offspring of Adam and Eve. In what way? As recorded at Genesis 3:15, Jehovah said: “I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.” That prophecy is a key to understanding the entire Bible as well as past and present events involving both the world and God’s servants.

    To appreciate its significance and meaning, consider the various elements of the prophecy itself. The one addressed at Genesis 3:15 is the Serpent—not the lowly snake but the one who used it, Satan. (Compare Revelation 12:9.) “The woman” is not Eve but Jehovah’s heavenly organization, the mother of his spirit-anointed servants on earth. (Compare Isaiah 54:5 and Galatians 4:21-31.) The Serpent’s “seed,” is Satan’s seed, his offspring—demons and humans as well as human organizations that manifest the traits of Satan and that show enmity toward the “seed” of the woman. (John 15:19; 17:15) The woman’s “seed” is primarily Jesus Christ, who was anointed with holy spirit in 29 C.E. Those who are “born again . . . from water and spirit” and who are heirs of the heavenly Kingdom with Christ, are a subsidiary part of that seed of promise. These began to be added to the woman’s seed from Pentecost 33 C.E. onward. (John 3:3, 5; Galatians 3:16, 29)

    The literal serpent in Eden was used as a mouthpiece by Satan, the one whose lies and deceit led to mankind’s loss of Paradise. Genesis 3:15 pointed forward to the time when Satan, the one who manipulated that serpent, will be crushed. Then the way will again be open for human servants of God to inhabit the earthly Paradise, free from sin and death as God originally meant for it to be. (Genesis 1:28 and compare Isaiah 55:11.) What a joyful, happy time that will be! (Revelation 20:1-3; 21:1-5)To completely explain the prophecy of Genesis 3:15 to you would involved completely explaining the Bible because almost everything in the Bible is tired to that prophecy in someway. Throughout the Hebrew (OT) and Greek (NT) Scriptures there are accounts and prophecies with their fulfillments and then new prophecies yet to be fulfilled that all build on and expand the meaning and understanding of Genesis 3:15. Let me say it again, The Woman, the Seed, the Serpent, the enmity and especially the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15 are mentioned throughout the Bible but not all in the Quran. There is no continuity! There is no unity! It is not possible for it to be the “same message and the same teachings!”

    In the verse you quote from the Quran it makes it sound as if God deliberately put enmity between men (some Jews and so-called Christians have that same mistaken view) but that is not what the Bible teaches. The enmity in Genesis 3:15 is not between men or mankind but between God’s woman and the Serpent. That is not what the verse you quote from the Quran says.

    In the Bible, from beginning to end, God is Father to sons including a special son, Jesus. Jesus is the primary or main one of the Seed. The Seed is made up entirely by ones that are mothered by God’s woman. In the Bible, from beginning to end, God has a woman and is repeatedly spoken of as her husband. The Quran denies those basic Bible truths!

    The Bible, from beginning to end, speaks of the Paradise as being earthly and not heavenly as does the Quran. If they are “the same message and the same teachings” as you claim by words only, but deny by your actions, why is it that the Quran teaches the opposite of what the whole Bible teaches?

    You say: “First of all, you have to know that Jesus recieved the Injeel by God but not the bible.”

    Answer: Again, you do not know what you are talking about. Just because you or the Quran claim something is so does not make it so any more than a Mormon claiming something is so just because it is found in the Book of Mormon makes it so. You and not me are the one believing in the Quran. You are trying to do the right thing by trying to prove things to me from the Bible, which I do believe; there is only one problem, so far, you have shown yourself to be very much mistaken about what the Bible says. If you want me to show you where the Bible says the exact opposite of your above statement I will be happy to do so. Again, you are proving that the Bible and the Quran are not “the same message and the same teachings.”


    Continues below.
     
  17. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    You say: “secondly, Jesus was sent because the Jewish twisted thier religion and got corrupted. On the other hand, Mohammed (PBUH) was sent to the whole world until the hereafter because after Jesus people didn't keep what Jesus teached them.”

    Answer: The apostasy from true worship/religion by so-called Christians was foretold and warned against in the Bible. So that proves nothing negative about the Bible but only about the apostates. There is nothing wrong with the truth found in the Bible; there is nothing wrong with the Word of God!

    I have no doubt about Mohammed being sent to the whole world, but you and I probably disagree on who sent him. Instead of confirming the truth of the word of God, Mohammed denies it. Instead of upholding the Bible and the truth it contains, Mohammed dismisses the Bible and almost every truth it contains and tries to replace the Word of God with falsehoods that come from the same source as the very much mistaken teaching of the trinity.

    You say: “So, now i'll tell you about your question...

    Offerings/sacrifices involving shed blood.”


    Answer: Typical, I speak of “Offerings/sacrifices involving shed blood,” which is to say their use and place in true worship/religion, including true Christianity, and you give me an answer regarding food. You are not answering my questions! Again, from beginning to end, the Bible teaches that an integral part of true worship/religion is offerings/sacrifices involving shed blood. Where is that teaching in the Quran? Part of the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15 involves offerings/sacrifices that involve shed blood. Jesus’ death was foretold and then fulfilled as part of the Bible and was part of that fulfillment; yet you and the Quran deny it. You and the Quran are very much mistaken. “Offerings/sacrifices involving shed blood” are very much a part of true worship/religion in the Bible but not in the Quran, why is that?

    You say: “-The restoration of Paradise on earth not in Heaven.

    I couldn't understand this one. Can you give me an example froma the bible "a verse" concerning about this one?”


    Answer: Yes I certainly can:

    (Genesis 1:28) “Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”” That is God’s stated purpose for the earth and man.

    (Isaiah 55:11) “. . .so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.” God’s purposes cannot be thwarted and are sure to be accomplished! God’s purpose for earth was for it to be a Paradise with man living on it without sin and death.

    (Isaiah 45:18) “. . .For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.”

    (Psalm 37:8-11) “Let anger alone and leave rage; Do not show yourself heated up only to do evil. 9 For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. 10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. … 29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it

    Jesus repeated that promise at Matthew 5:5, “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth

    Peter also repeats the promises made in the Hebrew Scriptures regarding the future of the earth at 2 Peter 3:13, “But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.” In addition to the promise made in Psalm 37 and Jesus’ restating of it at Matthew 5:5, Peter no doubt had in mind the following verses:

    (Isaiah 65:17, 21-25) “For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart. … 21 And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage. 22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them. 24 And it will actually occur that before they call out I myself shall answer; while they are yet speaking, I myself shall hear. 25 “The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent, his food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” Jehovah has said.”

    (Isaiah 66:22) “For just as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making are standing before me,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “so the offspring of you people and the name of you people will keep standing.”

    From beginning to end the Bible is consistent in what it says; there is continuity of message and teachings from start to finish. Note what the apostle John says in Revelation 21:1-5, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” 5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.”

    You say: “(I know that God sent Jesus to the Jewish)”

    Answer: Again, you are very much mistaken. As I have already shown from both prophecy and by Jesus’ actions, he was sent to the Jews first and but also and almost immediately to all “the nations” via the preaching work that he commanded to be engaged in by his true followers. Again, true worship/religion has always been open to or available to ALL from the beginning and up to now that has not changed. Claiming otherwise is a religious lie told by the father of the lie, Satan.

    Continues below.
     
  18. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    You say: “If this right then why the Jewish rejected Jesus? Can you please explain for me?”

    Answer: The same reason why Adam rebelled and sinned. The same reason Cain ignored God’s direct warning and went ahead and murdered his brother. Because they wanted to!! It is the same today. The vast over-whelming majority of people do not care to learn the truth and then to accept it and live according to what it says.

    You say: “Secondly, Jesus mentioned Prophets so why you don't believe that a new prophet will come after him?”

    Answer: Because there is no need! Everything needed was provided in Jesus. But you and the Quran deny it all. Only by denying what the Bible says can you concoct a need. Only by perverting what it does say can you show a need. Again, you are proving that the Quran is not “the same message and the same teachings.” I have asked you repeatedly to show me anything in the Quran that I need—I have seen nothing yet! In all of these things I am showing you and all the questions I ask of you I am trying to show you what the Quran does not have that you personally need to have God’s favor. It is up to you whether or not you want to see it. Will you be like Adam and Cain and only see what you want to see and only do what you want to do? The choice is yours to make.

    You say: “Show me where does Quran neglect Torah & Injeel?”

    Answer: As I mentioned above, by making the claim that God cannot or did not preserve and protect his own words. That is “neglect” of the worst kind!

    You say: “Why according to Paul and Jesus's diciples but not according to Jesus himself?”

    Answer: Jesus himself quoted the Torah, the Hebrew Scriptures, almost continually.

    Here is what I said in an earlier post and you did not understand that it is the answer to what you just asked:

    Both Jesus, his disciples, and almost all of and those that listened to him knew the above prophecy. Because of that prophecy and also others like it (but not included here for the same of brevity), the Jews were expecting the Messiah to appear when he did and were expecting him to make some big changes. But notice how Jesus handles the situation at Matthew 5:17 quoted from several Bibles so that you can get the full flavor of meaning of the words he used:

    (AMP) Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.

    (Darby) Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil.

    (GNB) "Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true.

    (GW) "Don't ever think that I came to set aside Moses' Teachings or the Prophets. I didn't come to set them aside but to make them come true.

    (LITV) Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill.

    (MRC) "Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

    (MSG) "Don't suppose for a minute that I have come to demolish the Scriptures--either God's Law or the Prophets. I'm not here to demolish but to complete. I am going to put it all together, pull it all together in a vast panorama. (Remember what I said about continuity?)

    (NIRV) "Do not think I have come to get rid of what is written in the Law or in the Prophets. I have not come to do that. Instead, I have come to give full meaning to what is written.

    (WNT) "Do not for a moment suppose that I have come to abrogate the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abrogate them but to give them their completion.

    Repeatedly the Quran teaches abrogation—not so Jesus and his followers even though the replacement of the Mosaic Covenant was prophesied to come.

    (Luke 4:16-17) “And he [Jesus] came to Naz´a·reth, where he had been reared; and, according to his custom on the sabbath day, he entered into the synagogue, and he stood up to read. 17 So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: . . .”

    (Acts 8:30-35) Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” 31 He said: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him. 32 Now the passage of Scripture that he was reading aloud was this: “As a sheep he was brought to the slaughter, and as a lamb that is voiceless before its shearer, so he does not open his mouth. 33 During his humiliation the judgment was taken away from him. Who will tell the details of his generation? Because his life is taken away from the earth.” 34 In answer the eunuch said to Philip: “I beg you, About whom does the prophet say this? About himself or about some other man?” 35 Philip opened his mouth and, starting with this Scripture, he declared to him the good news about Jesus.

    (Acts 17:2-3) “. . .So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures [the Hebrew Scritures], 3 explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and [saying]: “This is the Christ, this Jesus whom I am publishing to you.”

    Again, the way Jesus and his disciples and apostles taught true worship/religion, Christianity, was right out of the Hebrew Scriptures! In doing so their actions and attitudes displayed a true respect for the Word of God. They never claimed that God could not or had not protected His Word’s and therefore they had to abrogate it and issue corrections. What effrontery that would have been on their part! Yet the Quran, Islam, and Muslims seem to do just that!

    Please listen closely; please pay attention to what I am saying. Jesus and all true worshippers know that God’s Word has been protected and preserved by God. That means that the Bible is trustworthy and contains the true worship/religion. Let me repeat it again:Again, the way Jesus and his disciples and apostles taught true worship/religion, Christianity, was right out of the Hebrew Scriptures! In doing so their actions and attitudes displayed a true respect for the Word of God. They never claimed that God could not or had not protected His Word’s and therefore they had to abrogate it and issue corrections. What effrontery that would have been on their part! Yet the Quran, Islam, and Muslims seem to do just that! Why is that?

    Continues below.
     
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  19. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    If you want a list a scriptures beyond the above it can easily be provided; just ask and you shall receive it. Let me say it one more time. It is a lie, a slander of God, to claim that he did not care enough about the message and teachings of his Word to preserve them and protect them. If some “prophet” makes that claim he does not speak from God!

    You say: “one simple question ...

    Do you believe that the OT is absuloutly right and you still following what is written there, all of it?

    just answer this question then everything will be clear 100%.”


    Answer: I have already answered the question. I am sorry you cannot understand. Perhaps you should reread it till you do understand. No, I will provide some additional help but the question was very plainly and clearly answered already.

    Yes, I “believe that the OT is absuloutly right!” Unlike the Quran and you I know that the Hebrew Scriptures, what you call OT, is God’s Word and that it is “the same message and the same teachings” as the Greek Scriptures, what some call NT. The fact that it is all the Word of God and means that true Christianity, true worship/religion can be taught from the Hebrew Scriptures—exactly what Jesus and his followers did! Let me repeat and expound on what I said earlier:

    Again you are very much mistaken; the law of Moses was not rejected by Christians!! It was upgraded by God into a “new and improved” version, the law of the Christ!! Perhaps you are old enough to remember computers that ran DOS as an operating system. Then along came the upgrade to Windows, which was much more user friendly. All the basics of DOS were still there but hidden away behind the GUI of the Windows environment. That is analogous to what God has done with true worship/religion. Oh yes it certainly looks different, but the basics are the same.

    Again, so you will understand it please pay attention to what I am telling you as I explain it again. You may not remember the change from computers running DOS as an operating system to running Windows. Before you could start Windows you had to have DOS running. Once DOS was up and running then you could start Windows. Windows certainly looked different with its GUI and point-and-click mode of operation but it did not really change anything in DOS. Oh yes the command prompt was upgraded to a mouse and point-and-click so it certainly appeared to be different but it was not. The same is true of the Mosaic Law and the Jewish ways and the “law of the Christ” and Christian ways or as I said before:

    So just as He had taken the true worship/religion practiced by Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Joseph, and Job and upgraded it into the true worship/religion practiced by Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, and so on, He once again upgraded true worship/religion into that followed and practiced by Jesus, Peter, John, Paul and so on. The basic underlying truths, principles and requirements did not change. Also as had been the case with the changes at the time of Moses the changes at the time of Jesus were accompanied by undeniable displays of God’s favor on the new arrangements.

    Those things that seemed to be big changes were not just dismissed out of hand but were fully explained including showing how the old had been fulfilled, completed, given full meaning and then how the new was, not abrogating, but carrying on with and improving on the old. It definitely was a carrying forward with “the same message and the same teachings.” That is not the approach I see being followed in the Quran and by its adherents. If I am wrong in this please show me! Where is it that the Quran takes a teaching from the Bible and does what I have just described? I have yet to find one.

    You say: “So you don't believe in hell ? O.K.”

    Answer: Again, you are absolutely wrong. I do believe in the “hell” that is found in the Bible. What I do not believe in is the pagan ideas of ‘hellfire’ adopted by so-called Christians, apostate Jews and Islam.

    Under inspiration from God, King David said about himself and also prophetically about his heir, the promised “the seed” or “thine Holy One,” at Psalm 16:10, KJV, “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” That says that at this point in time David is in “hell” waiting for the resurrection.

    Peter, under the inspiration of God’s holy spirit, makes the application for us saying at Acts 2:29-36, KJV: “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. (30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. (33) Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, (35) Until I make thy foes thy footstool. (36) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

    David is still waiting in “hell” for his resurrection in the restored Paradise on earth. Jesus went to “hell” and was resurrected from there into heaven. No one that died before Jesus died goes to heaven or as Jesus stated it at Matthew 11:7-15, “While these were on their way, Jesus started to say to the crowds respecting John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to behold? A reed being tossed by a wind? 8 What, then, did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft garments? Why, those wearing soft garments are in the houses of kings. 9 Really, then, why did you go out? To see a prophet? Yes, I tell you, and far more than a prophet. 10 This is he concerning whom it is written, ‘Look! I myself am sending forth my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way ahead of you!’ 11 Truly I say to you people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. 12 But from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it. 13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John; 14 and if you want to accept it, He himself is ‘E·li´jah who is destined to come.’ 15 Let him that has ears listen.

    Peter says so: (Acts 2:34) Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,

    Paul says it this way: (Hebrews 9:8) Thus the holy spirit makes it plain that the way into the holy place had not yet been made manifest while the first tent was standing.


    Continues below.
     
  20. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    You say: “All these are non-Muslims website and it's pure christian websites and i hope that you can read all these links before you answer me.”

    Answer: We have already established from the very beginning that there are those that do not believe and live by what the Scriptures actually say. Do you not remember your first comments to me in this thread? Let me refresh your memory” You said: “If you are a good student and i'm not and we are at the same school studying the same books so if i fail do i supposed to blame the books or to blame myself? this is my persoanl answer for your question.” And Mujahid Mohammed said: “You must judge Islam off of our beloved Prophet and his companions you cannot judge a religion off of the people you see today. Allah says the Prophet and his companions are the best and you should judge Islam from the best. When Allah is talking about the believers he is talking about them then not us. If we try to carry ourselves as they did then Allah will give us that title. It is the same I would not judge Christianity off of some Christians today. Would you judge Christians off of David Koresh, the IRA, Hitler, Bush. I do not think you would so you can not judge us on brothers you see today. We find real Islam from there example and these are the individual we must try and imitate. You would not follow the student if the teacher gave you all the references to do it yourself”

    No! I am not going to waste my time reading all the nonsense found on those websites. I have not even looked at them but I am quite confident that they also promote the trinity doctrine. Do you think I should read about and believe the trinity? Shame on you! If I should not judge Islam by its bad apples then you should not judge true worship/religion by those that only claim to be true worshippers but are not! Especially when you already know that they are not because they believe the pagan trinity doctrine. Again, shame on you! So-called Christians, at the height of the foretold apostasy, adopted “Hellfire” and several other pagan beliefs, should I believe all the things they believe? Just as the trinity doctrine is false, so is their, and yours also, belief in a burning hell in the afterlife. Those beliefs have a common source and it is not the Bible or God.

    John the Baptist, King David and all the others I asked about are righteous men and they are in “hell” right now. They are not in your and the so-called Christian burning hell but they are in the hell actually taught in the Bible. Revelation 20:13, KJV, tells us the truth when it says: “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.” The hell of the Bible is the condition of being in God’s memory and awaiting resurrection. Everyone in “hell,” both righteous and unrighteous are awaiting the resurrection, at which time hell will give up the dead in it. At that point hell will be done away with forever. There will be no more hell after the resurrection.

    Revelation 20:14-15, KJV, “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life [= God’s memory] was cast into the lake of fire. On more time so you “get it.” After the resurrection hell goes out of existence! What you and the so-called Christians believe is not from the Bible not from God.

    You say: “Do you mean for example that i can't change my bible i have in my room?
    I did it and i changed it to see what will happen to me but nothing happened.

    What if a king changed it and forced it to his people?

    You do not have to say these asumption of the weakness of God because no one can change the original word of God but we can change any bible we have in our hands.

    Believe there is no magic in the bible and you can try it out and use a pencil to change your bible and nothing will happen to you.

    Quran is the same thing and anyone can change the copy he has but the problem is that Quran has it's own unique style that any normal muslim will know that you changed somthing in his Quran in case you did so and this is what Allah has promised us to save his Quran. (not by magic or hidden power but by the miracle of it which is it's own style that not similar to any) and i mean the original arabic Quran not the humanic translations.”


    Answer: Stop twisting my words and start answering the questions I asked you last and that I also asked you to answer first.

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