1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What do Muslims think of Jesus?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by flysky, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,497
    Ratings:
    +1,247
    Religion:
    Islam
    to be continue ... tomorrow coz now i gotta go :)
     
  2. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    255
    Ratings:
    +8
    FYI: this is not a reply to your last reply but is an addendum to my last reply, the one before this one. If you want you can wait till I reply to the above and then answer both and we will be back in sequence.

    The Truth,

    Even though my last reply was longer than I intended it to be, I find that I have more to say and much more to ask of you.

    Within the Holy Scriptures, the Bible, I find things that are required of true worshippers and things that are a part of true religion. Yet I find no mention of them in the Quran and no explanation of why they are no longer part of true worship and true religion. Instead I find the Quran saying that what is now required is 180 degrees opposite to what the Bible always said. I have yet to be shown anything in the Quran explaining why it is no longer necessary to believe and to practice those past things. That also is very unlike the way that the Bible dealt with changes, viz. circumcision, the Law and the introduction of the possibility for some humans to go to heaven. Can you see why I might have my doubts about the Quran actually being “the same message and the same teachings?”

    Within the Holy Scriptures, the Bible, there are many prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled yet the Quran does not do as did Jesus and the first century Bible writers, that is repeat them and talk about their future fulfillment, past, present or future. Why is that? Would that not have been a good way to show that they are “the same message and the same teachings?” Yet I can find no example of that in the Quran.

    As an example of what I mean let me refer you to Genesis 3:15, the first prophecy in the Bible. What can you tell me about that prophecy? That prophecy is referred to many times in both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. What does the Quran say about Genesis 3:15 and its fulfillment? I cannot find anything about it. Do you see why I have my doubts about the Quran?

    Proverbs 4:18 says: “But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.” That means that true worship will always be changing and progressing but it does not mean that the process involves complete abandonment and replacement (Nullification or Abrogation) of the basic truths of true worship and true religion that preceded those progressive changes. In other words I do not reject the Quran just because it is different or newer but because of the ways in which it is different and new.

    The truth is always true and it never changes. Each time there have been “major” progressive steps taken in true worship God made it plainly clear that such a change was taking place by undeniable demonstrations of power and glory. Also those changes were clearly understood to be tied into the outworking of the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15. There was never a complete abandonment and a total about-face in direction such as called for by the Quran. Where are the undeniable demonstrations that I would expect to accompany the changes found in the Quran? Where is the proof and explanation in the Quran as to why I must make an about-face in my beliefs? Where in the Quran is the continuity and unity of prophecy, message and teaching?

    On the other hand and as I mentioned before, to prove my position all I must do is point to the history of true worship contained in the Bible. In the Bible there is continuity and unity of prophecy, message and teaching from Genesis to Revelation. And when there were changes that were hard to accept (for example circumcision and replacing the Law of Moses with “the Law of the Christ,” “the royal law”) the Bible steps in with an explanation of why the change was needed and showed where the new was better than the old and where the antitype completely fulfilled the type. It was not Abrogation but increased understanding and progressive light. As best I can tell at this point in my reading of the Quran, Abrogation and ‘Do it because I said so!’ and ‘Do it so you do not suffer in the Hereafter!’ is the only explanation offered. Am I wrong?

    The Truth, let me ask you one more question. Where will King David live in the future?

    .
     
  3. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    255
    Ratings:
    +8
    The Truth,

    You say: “what if it turns out that Jesus wasn't sent for you or for anyone else except specific people (( according to the bible )) so what do you say?

    will you reject somthing you don't like in the bible?”

    I say: Absolutely not! The reason I can be so adamant is that I know what the Bible does and does not say.

    There are literally hundreds of prophecies that were fulfilled in or by Jesus. The outworking or fulfilling of them required many different things at different times. I will try to keep this brief and only mention a few.

    The oldest prophecy that leads us to Jesus is Genesis 3:15. The next major change or progressive light that I will mention was the revelation that the “seed” was to come through the lineage of Abraham. However, at Genesis 22:18 note who was to benefit: “And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.” God made good on that promise almost from the very start of the nation of Israel, in fact, when Israel left Egypt Exodus 12:38 informs us: “And a vast mixed company [the footnote reads: Or, “And many aliens (strangers).”] also went up with them, as well as flocks and herds, a very numerous stock of animals.” Next we learn of Rahab from Jericho being favored by God and even being allowed to become an ancestress to King David and Jesus, as was the faithful Moabitess Ruth. Remember the inhabitants of Gibeon that were shown favor because of their faith and were allowed to serve at the Tabernacle and the Temple. Remember also the provision of the courtyards of the Gentiles at the Temples. I could go on and on. Regardless of the fact that many of the Jews may have put their nose in the air, the fact is true religion and worship were always open to all and not just to a certain people.

    Again there are very many revelations and prophecies that further clarify how God was working out and fulfilling Genesis 3:15. One outstanding prophecy is found at Daniel 9:24-27. Daniel’s prophecy sets the timetable for the appearance of the Messiah, the primary Seed, and for his death not to mention the end of the Mosaic arrangement and the cutting off of the nation of Israel including the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Note Luke 3:15-16, “Now as the people were in expectation and all were reasoning in their hearts about John: “May he perhaps be the Christ?”” The reason why they “all” were in “expectation” and were “reasoning in their hearts about John” and “the Christ” was that it was time for him to appear and they understood that fact because they knew the Scriptures. The main point you need to know is that the ‘most favored nation’ status enjoyed by Israel was to continue only until the time set by God in that prophecy.

    The fact that God was working things out for the benefit of all nations or peoples is evident even in the prophecies foretelling the Messiah such as: Isaiah 55:3-4, “Look! As a witness to the national groups I have given him, as a leader and commander to the national groupsDaniel 7:14, “And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.” And John 3:16, “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”

    Again, what that means is that Jesus was sent primarily, but not exclusively, and for a short time only to Israel so as to fulfill promises made to Abraham, Judah, David and others and so as to fulfill certain prophecies. He was not sent forever and totally exclusively to the Jews only. Any claim to that effect flies in the face of what the Bible says and what Jesus and his Father actually did in practice! Note Matthew 15:21-28: “Leaving there, Jesus now withdrew into the parts of Tyre and Si´don. 22 And, look! a Phoe·ni´cian woman from those regions came out and cried aloud, saying: “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David. My daughter is badly demonized.” 23 But he did not say a word in answer to her. So his disciples came up and began to request him: “Send her away; because she keeps crying out after us.” 24 In answer he said: “I was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 When the woman came she began doing obeisance to him, saying: “Lord, help me!” 26 In answer he said: “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to little dogs.” 27 She said: “Yes, Lord; but really the little dogs do eat of the crumbs falling from the table of their masters.” 28 Then Jesus said in reply to her: “O woman, great is your faith; let it happen to you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed from that hour on.” There are other examples like this also. The point is: What did he actually do? Point made, enough said! But it did not end there.

    What did Jesus command that his followers should do? (Matthew 24:14) “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 28:18-20) “And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Acts 1:8) “but you will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de´a and Sa·mar´i·a and to the most distant part of the earth

    Again we have come to see that your understanding of the Bible is VERY MUCH MISTAKEN.


    Continues below.
     
  4. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    255
    Ratings:
    +8
    You say: “Please don't exaplin a verse " according to you " and be sure of it like this.
    i see the verse as: the soul which used to sin so how long it survived in this life so definitely it will die and resurected in the hereafter.
    what do you think?”

    I say: I think we had a language or communication problem on that one. I am not at all sure what you mean. However, the point is that the Bible clearly states: “death will be the fate of the sinner's soul.” It does not say his fate will be everlasting torment in hellfire!



    You say: “this one means he doesn't want them to do this action but does it proof that he will not do it to the sinners in the hereafter?”

    I say: OK, let us use your logic, your answer and see where it leads us. According to what you just said it is OK for God to practice things he condemns and prohibits to men, is that correct? So that means that it is OK for God to say one thing and then do another? Is that not the same as telling a lie and is that not being a hypocrite? Maybe it is different in your part of the world my in my part of the world that would be called lying!



    You ask: “ya right so do you mean that DEATH is a punishment??”

    I say: You seem very intelligent, you tell me.

    Here is what Genesis 2:17 says according to various translations:
    (DRB) But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.
    (HNV) but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day that you eat of it you will surely die."
    (LITV) but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die.
    (NAB) except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.

    OK, you tell me, what did God say the penalty was for disobediently eating from the prohibited tree? DEATH, right? Or, are you going to claim that this is another occasion where it is OK for God to say one thing but mean something else?



    You say: “please be more relastic because i can do simply like that and kill anybody so what !!!”

    Think about what you are saying! You are saying that if not for the fear of hellfire you would happily go around killing people!

    Does God want worshippers that worship out of fear of punishment or does he want worshippers the worship him because they love him and they want to serve and please him? The latter, correct? So what use does God have for everlasting torment in hellfire? It makes no sense; it serves no useful purpose. It is a lie propagated by Satan.

    .
     
  5. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    255
    Ratings:
    +8
    The Truth,

    Please do not forget to answer my questions about the Quran in my other post. Thank you for the good and lively discussion. I feel I am learning a lot and I hope you are learning a lot too!
     
  6. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,497
    Ratings:
    +1,247
    Religion:
    Islam
    if a god means a servant for God so if you concidered Moses to be a god, Jesus to be a god then Mohammed will be a god too and all other prophets will be gods too.
     
  7. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,497
    Ratings:
    +1,247
    Religion:
    Islam


    you are most welcome and i'm so glad to share and exchange information with you and you can ask as much as you want.:)



    i guess you have some of Quran's teaching in your mind which you don't like and i hope that you can mention them for me so i can explain it for you according to what i believe in then you can decide whether it's the same teaching or not.



    give me any example please.



    Where did you noticed in Quran that it didn't dosn't do as did Jesus?



    If you didn't find anything or any fulfillment of any prophecy so just give me examples and i'll try to find it for you in Quran as this one.

    The Qur’an accepts that Adam and his wife were the progenitors of the human race. They were placed in a garden and permitted to eat from any tree but one, lest they become wrongdoers. Nevertheless, Satan seduced them to eat from the forbidden tree and hence to be expelled.

    The Qur’an makes several correctives:

    First, the couple, i.e. both of them, are told, not that they would die if they eat the fruit but that they would be wrongdoers.

    Second, the devil whispered to them both and caused them both to slip:
    Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: 'Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time.'

    Surah 2 Verse 36
    There is even a passage, which singles out Adam for blame:
    But Satan whispered evil to him: he said, 'O Adam! shall I lead thee to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that never decays?'

    Surah 20 Verse 120
    But there is no passage, which singles out Eve!

    Third, the Qur’an shows the story culminating in an original lesson. The
    couple seeks forgiveness and it is granted:
    So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: 'Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?'
    They said: 'Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost.'
    (God) said: 'Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time.'

    Surah 7 Verses 22 - 24
    In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them: they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden: thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and allow himself to be seduced.
    But his Lord chose him (for His Grace): He turned to him, and gave him Guidance.
    He said: 'Get ye down, both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.'

    Surah 20 Verses 121 - 123

    It is also worth noting that the Qur’an does not share the biblical mention of a serpent approaching, or of Eve seducing her husband, or of Eve receiving a sentence to pain in childbirth and subjugation to her husband. So, Islam never acknowledged the idea of "Eve’s sin"!




    What about the christians who rejected the law of Moses so is it ok for christians for example to reject any law and to ignore the right for any processing of the religion as you said so by islam or anyother right faith which fulfill the prophecies?



    I can't proof everything for you because i'm not a professional and i'm not aware of everything in the bible but i know about the Quran and after all i'm still learning. So, if you don't mind would you help me to bring some prophecies from the bible for example? and i'll try to show you whether it's in the Quran or whether it's the same thing or different.




    O.K. i got your point and i hope that you can give me some teaching in Quran that you think it conflict with the real teaching of Moses, Jesus or any prophecy. Then, we can examine it and we can see whether there was a reason for that or it was just as you said: to Do it because i said so!.

    in this link you will find alot of information about David and if you have more questions about him so please ask.

    http://answering-islam.org.uk/Index/D/david.html
     
  8. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,497
    Ratings:
    +1,247
    Religion:
    Islam
    Can you please wait until i reply to your other posts because my time is limited a little bit and we will be lost if we didn't wait till i finish because you will make new posts to reply and i'll have to go through everything you posted before i finish what you have posted before.

    I hope you can understand that and i'll reply to the other questions as soon as possible. :)
     
  9. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    255
    Ratings:
    +8
    The Truth,

    I am happy to wait. Please just post a reply saying that you are ready. I will not reply until then.
     
  10. Ezzedean

    Ezzedean Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2005
    Messages:
    449
    Ratings:
    +70
    WoW!!

    I just sat and read this thread for the last half hour, and it has been very informative. I am very sorry to interrupt you two but I have to join in.

    HOGMAN, you are THEMAN!! Just want to point that out. Your questions are challenging and have made me think. I dont even know where to start, so I'm just going to blabber, and we'll take it from there.

    First of all I have to clear this verse up (although a little off topic)

    [85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

    This is talking about one who believes in Islam and converts to another religion, NOT about the person who was a born Christian or Jew.

    ANYWAY

    The Quran and The Bible are two very reliable sources of information when wanting to learn about God. We need to realize that in the end, the morals in both religions are the same. With that said, what does The Quran teach that will benifit you in a way that the Bible cant?

    Well let's see.

    We are are taught that Jesus was NOT crucified and that he is NOT the Son of God. NOW... what needs to be understood is that were not denying that a crucifiction took place that day. Were only saying it was NOT Jesus on the cross. Yes, it was the image of Jesus, but the soul of another. We are not denying the fact that Jesus was raised, we just believe it was done BEFORE he was crucified.

    Sura III 55
    Behold! God said:
    "O Jesus! I will take thee
    And raise thee to Myself
    And clear thee(of the falsehoods)
    Of those who blasphame;
    I will make those whol follow thee superior
    To those who reject faith,
    To the Day of Ressurection:
    Then shall ye all
    Return unto me,
    And I will judge
    Between you of the matters
    Wherein ye dispute.

    Sura v 171
    Christ Jesus the son of Mary
    Was An apostle of God,
    And His Word,
    Which he bestowed on Mary,
    And a spirit proceeding
    From Him; so believe
    In God and His apostles.
    Say not "Trinity" :desist:
    It will be better for you:
    For God is One God:
    Glory be to Him
    (Far Exalted is He) above
    Having a son. To Him
    Belong all things in the heavens
    And on earth. And enough
    Is God as a Disposer of affairs.

    Sura v 19
    In blasphemy indeed
    Are those that say
    That God is Christ
    The son of Mary.

    Dont you think these verses are benificial to a Christian? These verses would not be seen in the Bible. If this is all turns out to be true, then this would fall under the category of information that the Quran had and the Bible didn't. Now you choose not to believe this, and that is fine and dandy, but I think no matter what verses or new information I might throw at you which are in the Quran, you wont believe them, so it doesn't really matter. The verses I chose to use, are ones solely about Jesus, mostly to keep to the topic at hand (What do Muslims think of Jesus) but there are many other examples that can be used.

    It is believed within the Muslim community that Islam didnt downplay Jesus, it Glorified him, it taught his true teachings

    John 16, 12-14
    I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
    Howbeit, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, that SHALL HE SPEAK, and he will shew you things to come.
    He shall GLORIGY me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    (Is this talking about Muhammed? Did Jesus not just say that someone will come to Glorify him? That would mean that in the course of time his name would NEED to be Glorified, and only someone with the same teacher (God) could do this)

    Now another topic that was talked about.
    The fact that Islam teaches about Hellfire, and warns us about it too much and how Christianity isnt about that, it's about love.

    Matthew 10- 34-36
    Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword.
    For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
    And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

    Matthew 13 49-50
    So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the jest.
    And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Is this the love you talk about?

    I'm half asleep right now to be completely honesty, it's 3 o clock in the morning, and I worked from 3pm to 11 pm, so i'm pretty out of it. To be honest, I might not have even answered any of the questions HOGMAN might have had, but I'll probobly write another post tomorrow after a nice 10 hour sleep. Forgive me for my ranting.

    Peace and Blessings
    Ezzedean
     
  11. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,497
    Ratings:
    +1,247
    Religion:
    Islam
    Is this your personal understanding brother Ezzedean or you have a source to support your claim like a scholar or any tafseer?
     
  12. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,497
    Ratings:
    +1,247
    Religion:
    Islam


    Jesus was sent to the sheep of Israel. How can you explain this for me please?




    Abraham has 2 sosn ... No?

    what about the second one?? he never existed? or you just forgot about him?

    Don't you think in the begining of the Genesis 3:15 it was talking about the ONLY son of Abraham?

    you see now why i have doubts about the Bible?

    why they just swallowed Isshaq the first son of Abraham???

    the seed of Abraham contain sons of Israel and the Arabs too.


    i agree to this except the last point when you said from the very start of the nation of Israel when you should have to say from the very start of the nation of Abraham which contains sons of Israel and the Arabs.

    they should put thier nose because Christ "The Massiah" was sent to them ONLY.
    but Mohammed was sent to ALL.


    can you tell me why the verse from 9:21 until 9:23 dosn't existed in the new international version?

    http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Daniel%209:20-27;&version=31;

    are they trying to hide somthing or they take it out because they don;t believe in it?

    Do you know now why i have my doubts about the bible?



    We can see in (John 1:20-21):

    1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
    1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? and he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
    and:
    1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet.

    If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, the we will find in the marginal note where the words "the Prophet", or "that Prophet" occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that 'that prophet' - 'the prophet like Moses' - "LIKE UNTO THEE", we have proved through overwhelming evidence that he was MUHUMMED.

    Let's study now and focus more and what did Jesus say about Mohamed.

    please see this link:
    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19750

    post # 9




    Jesus was sent for the sheep of Israel >> what is this statment talking about?



    That's why i want you to help me out to correct me if you don't mind.:)
     
  13. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,497
    Ratings:
    +1,247
    Religion:
    Islam


    I mean Death will be the fate of the sinner's soul and after that he will go to hell. So, before he die he must fear God and repent.



    I wish brother HOGCALLER to stick to the topic because i don't want to turn out our debating into insulting each other, our backgrounds and nations.



    So, you mean after they ate from that tree they died??

    i see the story of the tree according to what Quran said and check my pervious post.

    in Islam the main part of our belief is to be in the middle between "fear" from punishment and "wish" to enter to heaven.

    So, we have to love God and serve him because we wish to enter to heaven and also at the same time we fear God if we didn't obey him to not punish us.

    Nevertheless, If a single muslim was so sure about entering to heaven so his dogma is not correct and also he just fear so much that he think God will make him enter to hell so his dogma is not correct too.

    So, we are in the middle because we Love God and we Fear from him too if we didn't obey him.
     
  14. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,497
    Ratings:
    +1,247
    Religion:
    Islam
    i'm ready now. ;)
     
  15. Ezzedean

    Ezzedean Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2005
    Messages:
    449
    Ratings:
    +70
    Well first let's discuss something;

    [85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (3:85)

    Does this verse not state that if you desire a religion other than Islam, you will in a certain way "pay" for this? If this is the case it contradicts with Sura 2, Verse 62.

    Those who believe (in the Quran)
    And those who follow the Jewish(scriptures),
    And the Christians and the Sabians,
    Any who believe in God
    And the Last Day.
    And work righteousness,
    Shall have their reward
    With their Lord: on them
    Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    I know there is no contradiction in the Quran, and I'm pretty certain that in sura III.85, It's talking about the one who commits to Islam, and then converts to another religion. Let me write out some more of the prayer.

    S III 85-86

    85 If anyone desires
    A religion other than
    Islam(submission to God),
    Never will it be accepted
    Of him; and in the Hereafter
    He will be in the ranks
    Of those who have lost
    (All spiritual good).

    86 How shall God
    Guide those who reject
    Faith AFTER they accepted it
    And bore witness
    That the Apostle was true
    And that Clear Signs
    Had come unto them?
    But God guides not
    A people unjust.

    Seems pretty clear that the situation this sura is talking about with these ayats is when a Muslim becomes a non muslim. Inshu'Allah that should clear things up for you brother.

    Peace and Blessings

    P.S Were getting off topic with this post, so if you want to talk about it more send me a personal message.
    Peace and Blessings
     
  16. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,497
    Ratings:
    +1,247
    Religion:
    Islam
    I have doubt that you read everything in this thread.

    can you please see post # 56 in this thread? because you will find the answer there.
     
  17. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    255
    Ratings:
    +8
    The Truth,

    Message recieved will reply soon.
     
  18. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    255
    Ratings:
    +8
    Ezzedean,

    Thank you for asking but it is not my thread. I started off “talking” to flysky, then to Mujahid Mohammed, and then to The Truth; so why would I now object to your joining in? In other words, “Welcome!”

    You say: “First of all I have to clear this verse up (although a little off topic)

    [85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

    This is talking about one who believes in Islam and converts to another religion, NOT about the person who was a born Christian or Jew.”


    Let me ask: Does that mean I (me personally here and now) have God’s favor even though I reject the Quran and do not practice Islam? A simple yes or no will suffice for now because, as you say, it is somewhat off topic.

    Ezzedean, although I welcome your entry into the discussion I am not going to reply, only for the time being, to the rest of your post. I very much want to discuss those very things but not until we have come to some understanding of the things I have been discussing with The Truth. In other words, before you can teach someone to do long division you must first teach them to add and then to subtract and then to multiply and so. Replying now would be like putting the cart in front of the horse.

    Before I will accept anything the Quran says I must see where it is “the same message and the same teachings.” Nothing I have seen to this point leads me to believe that it is.

    Of course if you wish only to compare beliefs, that is, “talk at” each other rather than “with” each other, we can do that too. You can say what you believe and then I can say what I believe, but what will it accomplish? If you do not mind, I prefer to talk “with” you for a while longer. It may end up that all we did was compare beliefs but, even so, this way we will better understand why the other believes the way they do.

    Let me go ahead and post my reply to The Truth and you can reply also if you wish.

    .
     
  19. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    255
    Ratings:
    +8
    The Truth,

    You say: “if a god means a servant for God so if you concidered Moses to be a god, Jesus to be a god then Mohammed will be a god too and all other prophets will be gods too.

    In answer let me repeat what I said before: “In addition to Moses many others are given the title or description of “God” or “a god” and also there are many verses in the Hebrew Scriptures that contain the words “sons of God” or “sons of the Most High, including application to both angels and humans. Again, anyone, man or angel, who speaks for or some how “stands in” for God (with God’s permission of course) rightly bears the title or description “God/god.” Read Genesis 18 and 19 and note how God’s representatives are addressed just as if they were Him.

    I do not agree that Mohammed is a prophet (we will get into that later) but if he truly were sent by the One and Only Almighty God of the Bible as a messenger standing in for Him then, in accord with the Bible’s (really God’s) usage of the word, he could rightly be called God/a god. Did you not read Genesis 18 and 19? Unless you claim that Abraham, and also Moses who wrote down the account, thought Jehovah was a man/angel then it is quite plain that they, Abraham and Moses and also their God, Jehovah, had no problem with Abraham addressing the man/angel with the word “God” and even with the Divine Name, Jehovah.

    You say: “i guess you have some of Quran's teaching in your mind which you don't like and i hope that you can mention them for me so i can explain it for you according to what i believe in then you can decide whether it's the same teaching or not.”

    Answer: Above you said, “. . . some of Quran's teaching . . . you don’t like . . . that you can mention them for me so i can explain it . . .” I am not referring to teachings that are in the Quran that I “don't like.” I am referring to teachings that are in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, but are not in the Quran. If the Quran is what you claim it is, a sequel, then one would expect it to pick up and carry forward “the same message and the same teachings” as found in the Bible but it does not do so.

    You say: “give me any example please.”

    I say: I already have! Have I not asked you about the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15? The entire Bible deals with little else but the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15. Genesis 3:15 does not talk about Adam and Eve yet your reply to my questions about Genesis 3:15 was to tell me about what the Quran says about Adam and Eve. That makes no sense to me. Please explain how it is that your reply dealing with Adam and Eve is an answer to my point that the Quran ignores the prophecy given at Genesis 3:15? I have said it several times now, “You are not answering my questions!”

    Genesis 3:15 is the point where God begins to provide guidance and hope to fallen mankind. Almost everything contained in the Bible is connected to the fulfillment or outworking of the promises made at Genesis 3:15. Yet the Quran does not tell us anything about the outworking, the completing, and final fulfillment of those promises. The Bible deals with it from Genesis to Revelation and the Quran does not, why? If what you say, “the same message and the same teachings,” is true, then it should!

    Let me now mention some additional things that are part of true worship/religion from beginning to end of the Bible, and by the way these things are connect to the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15, that I find no mention of in the Quran:
    • Offerings/sacrifices involving shed blood.
    • The required services of priests and priesthoods that mediate between God and man.
    • The restoration of Paradise on earth not in Heaven.
    That list is nowhere near exhaustive but should be more than enough examples for this discussion, especially if you continue to do as you have done so far and not actually deal with them in anyway.

    You say: “Where did you noticed in Quran that it didn't dosn't do as did Jesus?”

    Answer: To properly understand my answer you need some background information first:

    (Jeremiah 31:31-34) “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 32 not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”

    33 “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.” 34 “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.”

    Both Jesus, his disciples, and almost all of and those that listened to him knew the above prophecy. Because of that prophecy and also others like it (but not included here for the sake of brevity), the Jews were expecting the Messiah to appear when he did and were expecting him to make some big changes. But notice how Jesus handles the situation at Matthew 5:17 quoted from several Bibles so that you can get the full flavor of meaning of the words he used:

    (AMP) Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.

    (Darby) Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil.

    (GNB) "Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true.

    (GW) "Don't ever think that I came to set aside Moses' Teachings or the Prophets. I didn't come to set them aside but to make them come true.

    (LITV) Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill.

    (MRC) "Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

    (MSG) "Don't suppose for a minute that I have come to demolish the Scriptures--either God's Law or the Prophets. I'm not here to demolish but to complete. I am going to put it all together, pull it all together in a vast panorama. (Remember what I said about continuity?)

    (NIRV) "Do not think I have come to get rid of what is written in the Law or in the Prophets. I have not come to do that. Instead, I have come to give full meaning to what is written.

    (WNT) "Do not for a moment suppose that I have come to abrogate the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abrogate them but to give them their completion.

    Repeatedly the Quran teaches abrogation—not so Jesus and his followers even though the replacement of the Mosaic Covenant was prophesied to come.

    Continues below.
     
  20. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    255
    Ratings:
    +8
    (Luke 4:16-17) “And he [Jesus] came to Naz´a·reth, where he had been reared; and, according to his custom on the sabbath day, he entered into the synagogue, and he stood up to read. 17 So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: . . .”

    (Acts 8:30-35) Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” 31 He said: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him. 32 Now the passage of Scripture that he was reading aloud was this: “As a sheep he was brought to the slaughter, and as a lamb that is voiceless before its shearer, so he does not open his mouth. 33 During his humiliation the judgment was taken away from him. Who will tell the details of his generation? Because his life is taken away from the earth.” 34 In answer the eunuch said to Philip: “I beg you, About whom does the prophet say this? About himself or about some other man?” 35 Philip opened his mouth and, starting with this Scripture, he declared to him the good news about Jesus.

    (Acts 17:2-3) “. . .So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures [the Hebrew Scritures], 3 explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and [saying]: “This is the Christ, this Jesus whom I am publishing to you.”

    Again, the way Jesus and his disciples and apostles taught true worship/religion, Christianity, was right out of the Hebrew Scriptures! In doing so their actions and attitudes displayed a true respect for the Word of God. They never claimed that God could not or had not protected His Word’s and therefore they had to abrogate it and issue corrections. What effrontery that would have been on their part! Yet the Quran, Islam, and Muslims seem to do just that!

    You say: “Islam never acknowledged the idea of "Eve’s sin"!”

    Answer: If you are claiming that the Bible does, you are once again very much mistaken. The problem is always called “Adam’s sin.” Only people that do not know what the Bible REALLY teaches would blame our predicament on Eve. Think about it, the fact that imperfect Mary bore a perfect son, Jesus, proves that the problems we have came from Adam’s fall into sin and imperfection and not Eve’s.

    You say: “What about the christians who rejected the law of Moses so is it ok for christians for example to reject any law and to ignore the right for any processing of the religion as you said so by islam or anyother right faith which fulfill the prophecies?”

    Answer: Again you are very much mistaken; the law of Moses was not rejected by Christians!! It was upgraded by God into a “new and improved” version, the law of the Christ!! Perhaps you are old enough to remember computers that ran DOS as an operating system. Then along came the upgrade to Windows, which was much more user friendly. All the basics of DOS were still there but hidden away behind the GUI of the Windows environment. That is analogous to what God has done with true worship/religion. Oh yes it certainly looks different, but the basics are the same.

    So just as He had taken the true worship/religion practiced by Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Joseph, and Job and upgraded it into the true worship/religion practiced by Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, and so on, He once again upgraded true worship/religion into that followed and practiced by Jesus, Peter, John, Paul and so on. The basic underlying truths, principles and requirements did not change. Also as had been the case with the changes at the time of Moses the changes at the time of Jesus were accompanied by undeniable displays of God’s favor on the new arrangements.

    Those things that seemed to be big changes were not just dismissed out of hand but were fully explained including showing how the old had been fulfilled, completed, given full meaning and then how the new was, not abrogating, but carrying on with and improving on the old. It definitely was a carrying forward with “the same message and the same teachings.” That is not the approach I see being followed in the Quran and by its adherents. If I am wrong in this please show me! Where is it that the Quran takes a teaching from the Bible and does what I have just described? I have yet to find one.

    You say: “in this link you will find alot of information about David and if you have more questions about him so please ask.”

    Answer: No the information found by following that link did not answer my question about King David. Let me expand the question to include Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Joseph, Moses, Aaron, and Solomon. Where do you personally believe all those faithful men will live in the future?

    You ask: “Jesus was sent to the sheep of Israel. How can you explain this for me please?”

    Answer: I did, but not well enough it seems so that you understood. So let me do it again. Please forgive me for not realizing what a language struggle you must be having. At times I do remember and try to compensate by repeating things in different words hoping that makes it easier for you.

    OK, here goes: It goes back to Genesis 3:15. God uttered that prophecy for the benefit of ALL OF ADAM’S FALLEN DESCENDANTS. At that point in time the gleam in Adam’s eye included ALL MEN because no one had been born yet. That is the point at which Jehovah began to give us all guidance and hope for the future. I will not cover every detail but only the high points. Again, that guidance was for all people and was binding on all people, all mankind, because we all descended from Adam. Time and circumstances have brought us all to this day but that guidance did not change, it still applies to all people just as it did then.

    The next progressive light that I will mention was the revelation that the “seed” was to come through the lineage of Abraham. However, at Genesis 22:18 note who was to benefit: “And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.” God made good on that promise almost from the very start of the nation of Israel, in fact, when Israel left Egypt Exodus 12:38 informs us: “And a vast mixed company [the footnote reads: Or, “And many aliens (strangers).”] also went up with them, as well as flocks and herds, a very numerous stock of animals.” Next we learn of Rahab from Jericho being favored by God and even being allowed to become an ancestress to King David and Jesus, as was the faithful Moabitess Ruth. Remember the inhabitants of Gibeon that were shown favor because of their faith and were allowed to serve at the Tabernacle and the Temple. Remember also the provision of the courtyards of the Gentiles at the Temples. I could go on and on. Regardless of the fact that many of the Jews may have put their nose in the air, the fact is true religion and worship were always open to all and not just to a certain people.

    Do you see my point? God’s guidance was still available to and applied to ALL. Not just the Jews, not even just to all the descendants of Abraham. The words of God’s promise to Abraham and the actual things done by God in his provisions for true worship/religion make it obvious that it is for all and applies to all. If God only want Jews to worship him at the temple why was there a “courtyard of the Gentiles?” Still no change! Even under the Mosaic Law God’s guidance is for all!

    There is more progressive light shed on the lineage of the “seed” at Genesis 17:15-21, “And God went on to say to Abraham: “As for Sar´ai your wife, you must not call her name Sar´ai, because Sarah is her name. 16 And I will bless her and also give you a son from her; and I will bless her and she shall become nations; kings of peoples will come from her.” 17 At this Abraham fell upon his face and began to laugh and to say in his heart: “Will a man a hundred years old have a child born, and will Sarah, yes, will a woman ninety years old give birth?”

    18 After that Abraham said to the [true] God: “O that Ish´ma·el might live before you!” 19 To this God said: “Sarah your wife is indeed bearing you a son, and you must call his name Isaac. And I will establish my covenant with him for a covenant to time indefinite to his seed after him. 20 But as regards Ish´ma·el I have heard you. Look! I will bless him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him very, very much. He will certainly produce twelve chieftains, and I will make him become a great nation. 21 However, my covenant I shall establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this appointed time next year.”
     
Loading...