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What do Muslims think of Jesus?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by flysky, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    All the evidence I pointed out all throughout this thread if looked upon objectively will unequivocally show Jesus as the Son of God, greater than any prophet that ever lived. Mohmammed is not even close. For Mohammed to even promulgate that Jesus was not crucified some 600 years laters goes against 1st century biblical scripture from those who witness his crucifiction and corraborating evidence outside of the Bible by 1st century Jewish historian Josephus and 1st century Roman historian Tacitus. It's a flat out joke to dispute that kind of evidence with a straight face. :)
     
  2. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    So I have to ask when did Jesus ever state he was the sired son of God and that he was going to die. Now if the scriptures are riddled with contradiction in terms of who was there and who said what and this is how it happened how do you base any fact off of something flooded with contradiction. Bush said Saddamm had weapons of mass destruction we are still waiting for proof and not his statement a contradiction so now am I to believe everything Bush says. Now if the bible had no contradictions it would be more valid to base claims off of. Just please explain to me how you base fact off of a source filled with contradiction. Would you agree that if you accept the fact there are contradictions and you were to use the bible as a news source for the media it would not be long before they fired you for conflicting stories and statements(remember Dan Rathers little issue recently). Now All these ROMANS, none of which ever met Jesus or took anything from him disciples testimony, are condemmed by Jesus he calls them snakes, vipers, dogs, and says they are doomed to hell why would you accept the testimony of people Jesus condemned. You know there may be a reason he said those things about the people you are talking about if he said them at all. Give me Jesus's testimony and make sense of this conundrum for me.
     
  3. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Muhammad,

    I've laid out plenty of evidence. If you want to harp on the validity and trustworthiness of the scriptures, knock yourself out. As I've laid out scripture reference, both old and new testament, the fact that Jesus met every Messianic prophecy referenced by the Old Testament prophets, corraborating historica record from the 1st century outside of the Bible and you still are not looking at it objectively, we will just agree to disagree. You are steadfast in your belief and I applaud you for it, but I feel I have more than laid out reasons to believe Jesus is who He said He was, what was written about him and the like from many witnesses who lived during His ministry. Take it for what it is worth!:)
     
  4. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    flysky,

    I have been to the “askmuslims” web site and I have read some of it and much of what I did read does not have the ring of truth to me. Please excuse me for being so blunt but I have been trying hard to ask questions that were not confrontational and have gotten no-answer answers as replies. As for that web site’s answers, they only raised more questions in my mind and are not satisfying me either. Again, please excuse me for being blunt but I really would like to understand the Muslim way of thinking about things but the answers found on that web site smack of propaganda and you are not being forth coming in your answers to my questions.

    Perhaps a better way to put it is: “Actions speak louder than words.” The actions of Muslims, as I see and understand them from media reports, have no resemblance at all to the words and sentiments on that web site. The slanted, best-foot-forward answers found on that site do not conform with what I see, hear and understand of what is going on between Muslims and Muslims, between Muslims and Jews, between Muslims and “Christians,” and between Muslims and every other religion. Can you please help me to understand why that is?

    Based on what I see, hear and understand, your answer, “The answer is simple Quran was not interpreted so they won't be any misinterpretation,” is especially troubling to me. Let me explain why: If I understand your answer correctly, all the actions I see and hear about almost daily in the media being conducted by Muslims that can read and speak Arabic cannot be based on “any misinterpretation” because the “Quran was not interpreted,” correct? That means that those actions must be based on what the Quran actually does say, correct? That is very troubling to me!

    The actions reported in the media certainly do seem to conflict with what that web site says the actions of Muslims are supposed to be. Can you please explain the contradictions between the words and sentiments found on that web site and the actions and demonstrated attitudes of many, if not most, Muslims nowadays?


    .
     
  5. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    If you are a good student and i'm not and we are at the same school studying the same books so if i fail do i supposed to blame the books or to blame myself?

    this is my persoanl answer for your question.


    Peace ... :)
     
  6. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    You must judge Islam off of our beloved Prophet and his companions you cannot judge a religion off of the people you see today. Allah says the Prophet and his companions are the best and you should judge Islam from the best. When Allah is talking about the believers he is talking about them then not us. If we try to carry ourselves as they did then Allah will give us that title. It is the same I would not judge Christianity off of some Christians today. Would you judge Christians off of David Koresh, the IRA, Hitler, Bush. I do not think you would so you can not judge us on brothers you see today. We find real Islam from there example and these are the individual we must try and imitate. You would not follow the student if the teacher gave you all the references to do it yourself
     
  7. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    You have given me alot of evidence and I thank you. I know those verses are there and they may be true but there are other verses too that contradict that. And my question was never answered why would you take the statements of people Jesus said are snakes, dogs, vipers, wolves, and other harsh words. These people according to Jesus can not be trusted. Are these words not in the bible. Am I not to take all of the words in it as being the word of God. Then Blueman please explain this to me brother. The bible has contradiction, mistranslation and interpretation as stated by Christian scholars not by me I go by what the experts say. So my question was and still is why would you accept something that never agrees with itself. And please give me the verses where Jesus says I am God or I am the begotton son of God. The verse you gave me was I AM. But I am what he doesn't say it. And when did Paul witness any of the events in the lifetime of Jesus. He is the one who wrote the old testament as said by your Christian Scholars. I am just trying to make sense of it all. And I agree with you the statements you made are in the bible and I do not question that but there are other verses to that contradict each other and the dogmas Christians claim as truth. I am just trying to understand so if you could help it would be appreciated
     
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  8. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    as the Bible says, God is spirit. God does not reproduce physically because it does not have sex organs. God simply says "be" or whatever and it is. to think of God as a human or a creature is to be idolatrous.
    Jesus was the Messiah, he is referred to in Islam as Isa al-Masih many times. Isa being Jesus and al-Masih being the messiah. he is also referred to by many other names of praise in the Quran and hadith.
     
  9. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    The bible implies it by calling Jesus the begotton son. Or cired son of God. which is a sword ascribed with the lower animal functions of sex.

    Jesus was just a deliverer of Gods message to the children of Israel.
     
  10. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth, Mujahid Mohammed, flysky, et al.,

    Two excellent answers that beg this question:

    If so, then why do Muslims reject, blame and judge “the books,” the Holy Scriptures, which preceded the Quran by pointing to the actions and beliefs of those who claim to be believers but who really are not and even do far worse than that by claiming that God’s protection of His Word has failed so that His guidance provided within them has become changed and untrustworthy?

    Al-Baqarah 002.136 & 137
    YUSUFALI: Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)." So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.
    PICKTHAL: Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. And if they believe in the like of that which ye believe, then are they rightly guided. But if they turn away, then are they in schism, and Allah will suffice thee (for defence) against them. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
    SHAKIR: Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. If then they believe as you believe in Him, they are indeed on the right course, and if they turn back, then they are only in great opposition, so Allah will suffice you against them, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

    If you truly consider ALL God’s words to be “the same message and the same teachings” then we should be able to reach a consensus about Jesus, the Prophet of God long before Muhammad, based on the Holy Scriptures.

    .
     
  11. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I think i have to make things clear for you by what do i mean for example that the holy bible may not be as the orginal one in hebrew.

    First of all, what do we mean by the words of God?

    Is it the holy book that anyone can write it and modify it by his own? (you also can modify and edit the bible too if you want) .. No ???

    actually, the words of God isn't any book we have or any book we can make or copy .. etc.

    The words of God will never be changed whether in the Torah, Injeel or Quran.

    now you will say that i'm contradicting myself? isn't it?

    Nope.

    when i say i'll give you my words then you wrote what i said down in a note for example. If you changed my words so is that mean you changed me? NO

    my words is mine .. I have it... it's with me, in my heart and i can say it again and again to anyone by my tongue.

    Nevertheless, you changed the words you have in YOUR book you wrote according to me but i still have my words with me because you can't convience me to change it but you changed your own copy of it.

    So, i say to you that God's words will never be changed but only people changed what they have in thier own copy.

    you will say God will protect it .. right?

    Do you think now when i change the words of the bible today so when i come tomorrow my book will delete what i wrote there by itself because God protected it ?? and no one can do nothing because therer is a hidden power can delete what human beings change??? not logic right?

    so that's why we have shortage in understanding of protecting.

    so we conclude now that God's words in the Torah, Injeel and Quran never changed and it will never be change because it's the words of God and he has it but people could change thier own copy of the bible but they can't change the original words of God which he has.

    you will say now so Quran is the same and anyone can change it !!!

    I will tell you NO.

    Why?

    Simply because Allah said Quran is a Miracle but Torah and Injeel are just words Allah said to his prophets Moses and Juses.

    still you can't swallow my words.

    ok i tell you.

    Quran is a miracle so no body can change it because any muslim will find out that someone changed it.

    Allah save Quran from any changing because no one ever tried to change the Quran and he could fool a muslim.

    why?

    because Quran is unique in it's orginal Arabic form and no one ever could change it.

    Of course, some people tried their best to change it but once we look at a verse (which someone changed for example) in Arabic definitely 100% the muslim will know that somthing has changed and somthing wrong overthere because Quran is not a typical book and it had it's own style and how much you try to add or delete somthing any muslim who can speak arabic will find out it's not the word of God because it dosn't looks like what we read in the Quran in arabic and no body ever will be able to change even a single verse or to bring somthing like it forever because nothing is similar to it in arabic.

    We Muslims believe that God's words will never be changed in Torah and Injeel in it's original form and no body will be consider as a muslim if he dosn't believe so but we don't trust the translation of it which we have nowdays in the book called The Holy Bible because of the unknown authors words and paul's words which they attached in the Torah and Injeel.


    This is obvious that you should be able to reach a consensus about Jesus before Mohamed. Allah told us that Christians in the past knew that Jesus is a prophet but they change what Jesus teached them. This happened when paul came and spoiled the idea and concept of Jesus from a prophet to golorify him more and more to be like God himself, arm or son as in Christians' dogma.

    If you don't believe my words so go and search in the bible and check if Jesus claim that he is a God or if he said worship me because simply he was a messenger of God whom he used to pray to.

    insha Allah my brother HOGCALLER we can reach to a fair point about this issue if we really gone through the Scriptures and to focus and study it so we can learn more and more God willing because we just came to learn and we didn't came to fight in a battle or to see who will win at the end like what we see in a football matches for example.

    I apologize if i have said somthing wrong or if i made any mistake in my posts and i'm just a human being just like you and i may be right and i may be wrong and forgive me for my ignorance if i have said somthing wrong which is only my own opnion through what i believe in personally.
     
  12. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    My replies in this thread have been made so as to show that most of the things commonly said by Muslims against other religions and their holy writings can also rightly be applied to themselves, that is to say, to “Muslims” and the “Quran.” Let me say it again in a different way: Any and everything you say against my religion and my book can rightly be applied to you and your book. So the question is: Shall we just stand here and talk AT the other or shall we instead try to talk TO each other and try to walk the path together? Therefore, even though I do not agree with some of what you said in your last reply, I am not going to get sidetracked into a discussion of it that will go nowhere.

    If we do not establish some sort of common ground the discussion will go nowhere. Let me repeat what I said earlier: “If you truly consider ALL God’s words to be “the same message and the same teachings” then we should be able to reach a consensus about Jesus, the Prophet of God long before Muhammad, based on the Holy Scriptures.” Now let me expand on that to help you understand what I was getting at and was trying to say.

    The web site flysky links to and recommends contains this statement: “the same message and the same teachings.” Therefore:
    1. If that is a true statement then you should be able to show such to me, correct? Can you show me where the Quran agrees with, verifies, confirms, and fulfills that which preceded it, the Holy Scriptures?
    2. I believe the Holy Scriptures are the words of God and I believe that even though the Bible was written over a period of approximately 1600 years using approximately 40 messengers and prophets it is “the same message and the same teachings.” Can you show any instances where you believe that it is not? We have already established that you cannot judge the books by the so-called “believers” of them, so do not use the false doctrines believed by those who only claim to follow it but actually do not as examples of where my book is wrong. (FYI, we are already in agreement about the trinity.)
    3. Show me how the Quran takes the true religion, the true guidance provided by God in the Holy Scriptures and agrees with it and expounds on it in some meaningful and needed way. In other words, show me where the Bible is lacking or incomplete and where the Quran in fact provides me something I need that I cannot get from the Bible. (BTW, these questions would also apply to those that make claims similar to yours about their so-called holy books. The Book of Mormon is one example out of many. Why should I consider the Quran differently than I consider the Book of Mormon? The Book of Mormon also declares itself to be the word of God! Should I believe it just because it says so and those who believe it want me to?)
    .
     
  13. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Do you mean the similarities between Quran and the Bible?

    I don't believe that the people who wrote after Jesus were prophets but if they were so proof it to me if you don't mind and why do you concider Paul as a man without no mistakes ( because he is the founder of trinity ).
    my reply is from chapter 112 from Quran which describes God almighty.

    In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

    Allah said:

    [1] Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;


    [2] Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;


    [3] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;


    [4] And there is none like unto Him.

    as you can see in the bible there are 3 gods ( by paul ) but 1 God by Jesus.

    I hope that i answered all your questions.
     
  14. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    My question to you was:
    1. If [“the same message and the same teachings”] is a true statement then you should be able to show such to me, correct? Can you show me where the Quran agrees with, verifies, confirms, and fulfills that which preceded it, the Holy Scriptures?
    Your reply was to ask for a clarification: “Do you mean the similarities between Quran and the Bible?”

    I am glad you asked for the clarification because my answer is: Yes and No, but mostly No. Let me explain. “Similarities” are only a part of it. The Quran was written much later than the Bible so similarities, of which there are very many, would not necessarily prove anything to me regarding the authenticity and veracity of the Quran. However, should not the fact that so many statements and stories and parables from both the Torah and the Gospel, the Injil, are used in the Quran, virtually word for word, prove something to you? Do you really know how much of what is found in the Quran appears to be taken from the Torah and also the “New Testament”? Again, if you think that there are similarities between the Bible and the Quran, please point them out.

    Much more important to me than the “similarities,” which do more to prove the Bible’s authenticity and veracity than the Quran’s, is whether or not the Quran picks up and continues on with “the same message and the same teachings” that is contained in the “Book of Enlightenment,” the Holy Bible. Please show me where there is continuity and unity between the Quran and the holy writings that preceded it. Please show me where the main theme and message of the Quran is the same or is in harmony with the main theme and message of the “Book of Enlightenment.” Please show me where it is that the Quran agrees with and verifies and confirms the true religion, the true worship, and the true doctrine that God first revealed in the Torah and that was continued in the Injil and then where the Quran takes up that true religion, worship and doctrine and expounds on it and improves it and provides something better. Please show me exactly where it is “the same message and the same teachings.” I will be pleasantly surprised if you do.

    You make the statement: “I don't believe that the people who wrote after Jesus were prophets but if they were so proof it to me if you don't mind”

    I certainly do not mind. There are many proofs in my mind but you most likely will not accept them. So what “proof” will you accept? Will you accept words from the Quran as proof? Let us see:

    You and other Muslims I have talked to seem to make a really big deal out of the fact that the Quran was written in and supposedly only can be properly understood in the Arabic language. Yet the word Injil, or Injeel, is not an Arabic word. It is a Greek word in an Arabic-ized form. Is it not interesting that “Gospel,” the Anglicized or English form of that Greek word, was and is the word widely used by Christians to describe the portion of the Holy Scriptures written primarily in Greek and also used to differentiate it from the Torah or the primarily Hebrew language Scriptures part of the Bible? In other words, the word was already in common use among men of true faith and already referred to the Christian Greek Scriptures portion of the Bible before it was included in the Quran.

    Regardless of what latter day commentators may claim regarding the Injil, many of the earlier great interpreters (such as Al-Jalalayn, Al-Fakhr Al-Razi, Al-Tabari, and Al-Baydawi) did acknowledge that according to the Quran, the Torah is called “the Book of God,” “the Book which helps to make things clear,” and that the Quran calls the Torah and the Injil “the Book of Enlightenment,” or “the Scripture giving light,” or “the illuminating book.”


    003.003 & 004 or AAL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN, THE HOUSE OF 'IMRAN):3, 4
    YUSUFALI: It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of Allah will suffer the severest penalty, and Allah is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
    PICKTHAL: He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. Aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong). Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong).
    SHAKIR: He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan. Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah they shall have a severe chastisement; and Allah is Mighty, the Lord of retribution.


    The Truth, will you please explain to me how it is that God’s words can become “a guidance to mankind” unless they are written down and passed on? The only way the Injil could have been preserved and passed on so as to become “a guidance to mankind” is that God caused it to be written down—just as he did the Torah. Therefore the men God used to do that can rightly be called messengers or prophets of God! Otherwise and it could not have become “a guidance to mankind” and the above words of the Quran are mistaken. Since you say that can never happen the case must be that God caused the Injil to be written to preserve and to explain God’s “guidance to mankind” as provided through Jesus and his followers.


    Continues below.


    .
     
  15. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    005.046 & 047 or AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD):46, 47
    YUSUFALI: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein [in the Injil or the Gospel]. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
    PICKTHAL: And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil). Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
    SHAKIR: And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil). And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

    003.184 or AAL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN, THE HOUSE OF 'IMRAN):184
    YUSUFALI: Then if they reject thee, so were rejected messengers before thee, who came with Clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of Enlightenment.
    PICKTHAL: And if they deny thee, even so did they deny messengers who were before thee, who came with miracles and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light.
    SHAKIR: But if they reject you, so indeed were rejected before you messengers who came with clear arguments and scriptures and the illuminating book.

    035.025 or FATIR (THE ANGELS, ORIGNATOR):25
    YUSUFALI: And if they reject thee, so did their predecessors, to whom came their messengers with Clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of Enlightenment.
    PICKTHAL: And if they deny thee, those before them also denied. Their messengers came unto them with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), and with the Psalms and the Scripture giving light.
    SHAKIR: And if they call you a liar, so did those before them indeed call (their messengers) liars; their messengers had come to them with clear arguments, and with scriptures, and with the illuminating book.

    As I already mentioned, one of the most undeniable “proofs” is the fact that in the Quran one can find many things taken from the “New Testament” or Injil portion of the Holy Bible and that are repeated virtually word for word. The only question at this point is why the original is not good enough for you when it obviously is good enough to be repeated in the Quran?

    That same point is made in the Quran:

    010.094 or YUNUS (JONAH):94
    YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
    PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
    SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

    The Truth, will you accept words from the Quran as proof?

    The Book of Mormon makes claims to be the most recent “Word of God,” should I accept it because of those claims? If not, then why do you expect me to accept the Quran just because it and you claim it to be the word of God? Something more is needed and you are not providing it.

    The second part of your question to me is: “why do you concider Paul as a man without no mistakes ( because he is the founder of trinity ).”

    The Truth, you are very much mistaken!!

    I do not consider the Apostle Paul to be a perfect man free from sin or mistakes nor is he the “founder” of the trinity!! The trinity is a false doctrine that was adopted by Christendom hundreds of years after Paul died. Here is what Paul taught:

    1 Corinthians 8:4-6, LITV: “Then concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God except one. (5) For even if some are called gods, either in the heavens or on the earth; (even as there are many gods, and many lords); (6) but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.” (Bold is mine.)

    1 Corinthians 15:24-28, LITV: “Then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power. (25) For it is right for Him to reign until He puts all the hostile ones under His feet; Psa. 110:1 (26) the last hostile thing made to cease is death. (27) For "He subjected all things under His feet;" but when He says that all things have been subjected, it is plain that it excepts Him who has subjected all things to Him. Psa. 8:6 (28) But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.” (Bold is mine.)

    You say: “as you can see in the bible there are 3 gods ( by paul )”

    Again, you are very much mistaken!! There is no trinity found in Paul’s teachings and writings!

    The last thing you say is: “I hope that i answered all your questions.”

    To which I answer: No! You have not answered any of my questions, please try again.

    One new question: can you please define or further explain this statement, “He begetteth not?”

    To me the act of creating sons is the same as begetting sons, therefore, I cannot agree with that statement. I definitely believe God is my Father and that he begat me by creating my earliest ancestor, Adam, who also was a son of God.

    .
     
  16. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    [64] Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will)." (3:64)


    [136] Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, and that given to Musa and 'Isa, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam)." (2:136)

    [13] The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Nuh - that which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Ibrahim (Abraham in arabic), Musa (Moses in arabic), and 'Isa(Jesus in arabic): namely, that ye should remain steadfast in Religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him). (42:13)


    [61] And remember ye said: "O Musa! (Moses in arabic) We cannot endure one kind of food (always); so beseech thy Lord for us to produce for us of what the earth groweth its pot-herbs, and cucumbers, its garlic, lentils, and onions." He said: "Will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town, and ye shall find what ye want!" They were covered with humiliation and misery: they drew on themselves the wrath of Allah. This because they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and slaying His Messengers without just cause. This because they rebelled and went on transgressing". (2:61)
    as you can see this verse is talking about Moses and sons of Israel.

    let's see now the verse 2:62
    [62] Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    and i'll give you two more verses:

    [63] And remember We took your Covenant and We raised above you (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai) (saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: perchance ye may fear Allah."


    [64] But ye turned back thereafter: had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of Allah to you, ye had surely been among the lost.

    Fristly, as you can see all this was about Moses and his followers (sons of israel) and that all people who followed Moses(Jewish) and after that the people who followed Jesus(Christians) after Moses and the people who followed David (Sabians) before God send Mohammed (PBUH) shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    and it came in the middle of the story of Moses to show us what will happen to people who were before Mohammed (PBUH).

    Secondly, the same verse 2:62 is a reply for a follower of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and his name is "SALMAN AL-FARSY" because he was a christian before Islam and he asked Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) about his old friends that they couldn't catch up with him and they died before that so as Prophet Mohammed knowledge about this case his respond was that "they will go to hell" then "Salman" felt so sad for that and he didn't know what to do because they were good christians and how come they will go to hell fire, then God said this verse as an answer for "SALMAN AL-FARSY" and to tell us about the people before Mohammed (PBUH) like sons of Israel for example and what will happen to them in the future.

    Thirdly, Don't forget this verse 3:85

    [85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).



    the similarities are really alot and i can't type them all in here so i'll give you 2 comperhensive websites about this issue i hope that it will give you a clear idea about your question and "trust me" you will really be pleasantly surprised because you will know how much me and you my brother have in common.:)

    http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html

    http://www.islam101.com/religions/christianity/similarities.htm



    I think we have a misunderstanding in here my brother and i'm surprised how did you ask a question and you are answering it by yourself in my behave.

    I do believe in the true teaching of Injeel but only the verses that were said by God himself or Jesus (PBUH) because the bible is somthing different than the original Injeel as you know so just bring any verse in the bible you would like and we can examine it together as we are examining Quran.:)


    I guess you misunderstood me again my brother because there must be specific people who can deliver the message to the next generation as great people did so with the Torah until some unknown people tried to modify things in it.

    I believe that those guys must pass this truth to us as abu baker "prophet's follower" collected the Quran in one book after prophet Mohammed (PBUH) died but we never claim that this guy is a messenger of God or a prophet but a follower of prophet Moahmmed and at the same time i say the same about the followers of Jesus (PBUH) because God never claim that they will become prophets but they were just good believers and good followers of Jesus Christ.
     
  17. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    [103] We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear. (16:103)

    I still have doubt of your understanding for what i believe in which is that Torah, Injeel and Quran all are from the same "God" but i can see in your words that you have doubt of that and also as you know and as it's mentioned in the bible Jesus was sent "only" for the sheep of Israel but not for all human beings but Mohamed "the last prophet" was sent to to all people and nations till the hereafter. I wish that you can check many things of my claims in this thread of mine.:)

    Mohammed in the bible...
    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19750



    I don't have a choice except to accept it and more than that i will not be concidered as a muslim if i didn't believe of the "true" teaching of all the holy books of God but just read this verse to know what do i mean.

    [85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (3:85)



    you are right so that's why i invite you to see the thread i mentioned earliar "Mohammed in the bible !!!".


    you know?? I would like now to delete everythin i wrote because me and you have no problem with the teaching of Jesus because you believe in only one truly God just like me and you believe that Jesus was a prophet "i guess" so why to argue?


    if i'm mistaken in anything so please correct me and help me to understand what i'm confused with and you helped me now to know that Paul wasn't the founder of trinity.
    thanks ... :)


    i hope that i answered questions as much as i can and please tell me if i missed anything again and i'll be glad if you asked more questions in case you have.

    The problem is that in hebrew they call the servant of God "the son" but he is not a real son and in hebrew they used to call God "the father" or "father in heaven" and please correct me again if i'm mistaken. So, in case you mean by son the same as hebrew so this is acceptable in hebrew only but in case you mean a real son so this is diffcult to understand.
     
  18. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    Let me thank you for providing, at least to a small degree, an answer to my questions. Just now are we starting to exchange information that will allow us to establish clear common ground or to show clear differences.

    Let me repeat a quotation you made from the Quran: “Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, and that given to Musa and 'Isa, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."” (2:136)

    I submit that Muslims do not actually believe that God’s four revelations are “the same message and the same teachings.” I say that because by their words and actions they demonstrate that they are instead trying to show, to establish or to “make [a] difference between one and another of them.” Take you for example, is it not true that you have not examined the Holy Scriptures, the Bible, for yourself and as a result you wrongly accused Paul of being “the founder of the trinity?” Can you understand why I question whether or not you really believe the statement “the same message and the same teachings” when you have absolutely no idea what the actual message and teachings of the Bible are?

    The biggest problem I will have in establishing any kind of consensus with you, and also with most so-called Christians, is the almost total ignorance of and the resulting rejection of the history, continuity and unity of the word of God. In other words we may not come to a consensus because of the fact that, regardless of your words claiming otherwise, in actual belief and practice you do “make [a] difference between one and another of them.” Let me say it one more time and in different words for clarification, if I show you where you have a mistaken idea that does not agree with the Holy Scriptures will you reject it because it only comes from the Holy Scriptures, the Bible? If your answer is an automatic “Yes!” then again I submit that you do “make [a] difference between one and another of them” and that you do not actually believe that they are “the same message and the same teachings.”

    After I show you exactly what I mean, you can demonstrate what you really believe by your words and actions and you can show me exactly what it is that you mean when you say: “I still have doubt of your understanding for what i believe in which is that Torah, Injeel and Quran all are from the same "God".”

    Yes you and I agree that there is no trinity but I do not reject the trinity because of something said in the Quran. I believe that way because of what the Bible says. So what need do I have of the Quran? Can you please tell me? What does the Quran contain that I cannot get from the Bible? Do you see that you still have not properly answered my questions?

    Speaking of your answer, if your answer is saying what I think it is then you have provided me with just what I need to show a clear difference between us and also to show where Islam deviates from the true religion revealed in the Bible. Let me explain. You said, “he asked Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) about his old friends that they couldn't catch up with him and they died before that so as Prophet Mohammed knowledge about this case his respond was that "they will go to hell" . . . they will go to hell fire.” It is not the story about "Salman" that I refer to but the pagan concepts of “Hereafter” and of “hell fire” to accomplish everlasting torment. The facts of history are that so-called Christianity adopted many pagan concepts and holidays including, but not limited to, trinity, the immortal soul, and everlasting torment in hellfire. While it is true that Islam the rejects the trinity it embraces hellfire and everlasting torment.

    Please consider the truth of God’s word found in the Bible:

    (Ezekiel 18:4) “. . .The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” Or another rendering, “death will be the fate of the sinner's soul.” It does not say he will be tormented forever in hellfire!

    (Jeremiah 7:31) “And they have built the high places of To´pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin´nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.’” Or another rendering, “They've constructed Topheth altars for burning babies in prominent places all through the valley of Ben-hinnom, altars for burning their sons and daughters alive in the fire--a shocking perversion of all that I am and all I command.”

    God condemns such a thing!! Is God a hypocrite? So why would he turn around and practice what he has condemned?

    These are the facts and history of true religion: The penalty promised to Adam for disobedience was the removal of life—death, nothing more. The choice placed before all mankind since Adam is the same and also the same as set before the nation of Israel at Deuteronomy 30:19: “I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring.”

    Romans 6:23 says that “the wages sin pays is death,” not everlasting torment in hellfire! And when one has died, that is, paid the ultimate price of sin by death, Romans 6:7 says that he “has been acquitted [or absolved] from [his] sin.” 1 Peter 4:1 says: “for the death of the flesh puts an end to sin.” That means everlasting torment after death is unjust because it is unjust to punish those who have been pardoned, by dying, and who are the same as being innocent and sinless!

    Let me give you another example of where, because of not understanding the history, the continuity and the unity, that is to say not truly studying and coming to an understanding, of ALL of God’s words you have incorrect ideas. In your other thread, not this thread, to which you made reference (later on, but not now, I might make other replies to things you said there) you make this statement: “In the FIRST place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to Christianity - 'JESUS IS A GOD', but Moses is not God. Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses!”

    As I have said more than once, you are very much mistaken!! Let me rephrase your statement into a true statement and then show you how accurate, correct knowledge and belief in the words of God contained in Holy Scriptures would have prevented you from making the mistake.

    Continues below.

    .
     
  19. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    Rephrased into a true statement it would go like this: “In the FIRST place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to [so-called] Christianity - 'JESUS IS [THE] GOD', but Moses [was only a] God. Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses [according to the beliefs of Muslims and so-called Christians]!”

    The actual fact of the matter is that Moses was called “God” or “a god” just the same as Jesus is also called “God” or “a god.” And that means that Jesus was a prophet just the same as Moses was a prophet and it also means that Jesus is the one that fulfilled the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18 rather than Mohammed! Now let me show you where the words of God contained in the Holy Scriptures would have kept both you and the so-called Christians from going astray in your claims about Jesus.

    Exodus 4:15-17: “And you must speak to him and put the words in his mouth; and I myself shall prove to be with your mouth and his mouth, and I will teach you men what you are to do. 16 And he must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him. 17 And this rod you will take in your hand that you may perform the signs with it.””

    Exodus 7:1: “Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar´aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.”

    In addition to Moses many others are given the title or description of “God” or “a god” and also there are many verses in the Hebrew Scriptures that contain the words “sons of God” or “sons of the Most High, including application to both angels and humans. Again, anyone, man or angel, who speaks for or some how “stands in” for God (with God’s permission of course) rightly bears the title or description “God/god.” Read Genesis 18 and 19 and note how God’s representatives are addressed just as if they were Him.

    Psalm 82:1-8: “God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges: 2 “How long will you keep on judging with injustice And showing partiality to the wicked themselves? Se´lah. 3 Be judges for the lowly one and the fatherless boy. To the afflicted one and the one of little means do justice. 4 Provide escape for the lowly one and the poor one; Out of the hand of the wicked ones deliver [them].” 5 They have not known, and they do not understand; In darkness they keep walking about; All the foundations of the earth are made to totter. 6 “I myself have said, ‘You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. 7 Surely you will die just as men do; And like any one of the princes you will fall!’” 8 Do rise up, O God, do judge the earth; For you yourself should take possession of all the nations.

    The Almighty God himself gave the title or the description of “God” to Moses (some translators have rendered it “a god,” it makes no difference as it is the same title or description as given to another messenger of God, The Word, at John 1:1). In Psalm 82 verse 1, the phrase, “middle of the gods,” can be applied either to the angels (the gods) that are present at “the assembly of the Divine One,” the “the assembly of gods,” or “congregation of gods,” or to the human judges of Israel that “stood in” for God as they judged and which are undeniably the subject of verses 6 and 7 where God says to them, “You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. 7 Surely you will die just as men do; And like any one of the princes you will fall!”

    Only those who are not true faithful servants of God choose to misunderstand the plain truth revealed by God’s words in those and other verses in the Hebrew Scriptures. Notice what Jesus said at John 10:31-39 about those very verses (in Psalm 82) and the proper understanding of them and his actual position with God, his Father: “Once more the Jews lifted up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me. 38 But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, in order that you may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father.” 39 Therefore they tried again to seize him; but he got out of their reach.”

    The Truth, why is it that Muslims reject Jesus for the very same wrong reason as did the unfaithful Jews? I do not believe that it is a mere coincidence! Nullification or Abrogation is not a tactic used by God and his faithful.

    What did Jesus mean when he said the word “one” or “union?” Jesus’ words at John 17:20-23 explain the meaning: “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me.” OR as another translation renders it: “And I do not pray concerning these only, but also concerning those who will believe in Me through their word; (21) that all may be one, as You are in Me, Father, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. (22) And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, as We are One: (23) I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected in one; and that the world may know that You sent Me and loved them, even as You loved Me.”

    ALL of God’s words are in fact “the same message and the same teachings.” And it is only by accepting and understanding them ALL that the mistaken ideas, actually fathered by Satan, can be recognized and then refuted. Do you now see that the best refutation of wrong beliefs claimed to be from the Bible actually comes from the Bible itself and not from the Quran. So why do I need the Quran?

    The Truth, please answer my questions: Is or is not Moses “a god”? Is or is not Jesus also “a god?”

    .
     
  20. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    welcome. :)



    It depends in the given information because we have to examine it first.


    a simple question ..

    what if it turns out that Jesus wasn't sent for you or for anyone else except specific people (( according to the bible )) so what do you say?

    will you reject somthing you don't like in the bible?


    Please don't exaplin a verse " according to you " and be sure of it like this.

    i see the verse as: the soul which used to sin so how long it survived in this life so definitely it will die and resurected in the hereafter.

    what do you think?


    so what are you trying to prove? :confused:

    this one means he doesn't want them to do this action but does it proof that he will not do it to the sinners in the hereafter?

    by the way, who told you that any sinner will go directly to hell?

    God has the choice whether to forgive him or not.

    Sorry, but this is your own understanding.


    ya right so do you mean that DEATH is a punishment??

    please be more relastic because i can do simply like that and kill anybody so what !!!

    good people die too buddy. ;)
     
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