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What do Muslims believe?

Discussion in 'Islam DIR' started by best friend, Mar 22, 2004.

  1. cruzmanis

    cruzmanis New Member

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    I'm a serious student of the Holy Bible.

    I decided to read the Qu'ran and found that it has no revelatory content.

    All it's ideas are found in the Bible, only in the Qu'ran it is used for prose.

    There is not a single thing in the Qu'ran that is original. It is well meaning words dressed in an Arab coat, but to any student of the Bible it is easy to see it is not God's Word.

    Kahlil Gibran could have written it.

    The Bible contains the mind of God. It contains the Law given to Moshe at Sinai.

    It contains the history of the world from creation to the end.
    Hebrew prophets and the Pslams and Proverbs....all original ideas and words from God to Israel.

    Jesus said he is the "Beginning and the Ending" which leaves out anyone else.
    Jesus also said his words are "spirit and life" which leaves out anyone else's words containing life. Or spirit.

    Jesus said "My words shall never pass away, which tells us that what he said will stand forever.

    Jesus said."All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." which leaves no power for anyone else.

    Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless, but I will come to you." which tells us he is omnipresent or how else could he come to all who believe in him?

    He said, "I am with you always, even to the end of the world" which clearly means he is omnipresent.

    He didn't say he is with the christian in thought or spirit, but clearly said, "I am with you"

    Islam is another false doctrine which Jesus said many false prophets would rise and deceive many.

    Jesus said...."If they say unto you, he is in the desert, go not forth"was clearly a prediction of Muhammed who rose in the Arabian desert in the 6th century.
    There are no records of Muhammed's desert trips and no witnesses to his claims of seeing an angel.

    Paul said even if an angel comes, let him be accursed.

    The Qu'ran is prose, but not God's word.

    The Old and New Testaments are all we need...and the obvious success of the Gospel being carried over the globe via satellite should convince anyone that it is real.

    Jesus said, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached unto the whole world for a witness to all nations, then shall the end come."

    What Jesus said is coming to pass daily,
    with millions of beautiful songs written and sung daily about Jesus Christ via satellite, internet, radio, CD's, cassettes, DVD's, videos, concerts, programs, plays, movies, books and every means possible has been provided by God to Christianity to get the Gospel out to the world.

    Islam tries to discredit the Bible with many accusations, yet it was from the Bible they learned about montheism. Muhammed learned this from the Jews and Christians on his trip to Syria when he was fifteen.

    As I said, there is not one thing in Islam that is original.

    I challenge any Muslim to show this Bible student anything original from the Qu'ran and I will show where it is found in the Bible because the Bible covers everything.

    God left nothing out!

    All the world literature contains two lines of thought; God's thoughts and man's thoughts.
    The Bible conatins the thoughts of God and the Qu'ran contains men's thoughts.
    I can prove this if anyone wants to know.
     
  2. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    It is just as easy to say that the Qur'an is the word of God and that it just happened so that it was written down later than the Bible. What Jesus said about himself is no proof, especially as there is no way for us to determine what he really said. What is original in the Qur'an contrary to the OT is, for example, the spirit of humanity, the absence of death penalties, the far more generous rights of women and many other such things, quite revolutionary for the time when the Qur'an got written. As for monotheism, Islam and Sikhism are fairly unique in this world among the "great" religions, being perfectly monotheistic. The OT (and hence Judaism as well as Christianity) very clearly states that there are other gods - why else should there be a commandment to have no other gods? It is difficult to interpret Christianity in other ways than it having three gods.

    I might add that I am a member of the Lutheran Church of Sweden.
     
  3. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    Cruzamanis, One way of looking at this is how universal religion is. Most religions have the same themes. Have you ever studied anything Joseph Campbell wrote? He was helpful to me in showing how the same themes have occured in religions since the beginning of time.
     
  4. cruzmanis

    cruzmanis New Member

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    Anders, you say it is easy to say the Qu'ran is God's word?
    it is also easy to say that a cow is a horse, but it doesn't make it so.
    The Qu'ran was written over 2500 years after Moshe received the Law at Sinai. And it was written by men who didn't even know God or saw him, as Moshe did.
    I write a book and you read my book, then write one of your own, misquoting me and claiming ownership of my thoughts in your book is not acceptable.
    This is what Islam did.
    The Law given to Moshe at Sinai is an original and cannot be improved on or duplicated. "You shall do no murder" is a first and so are all the rest of the commandments.
    The life of Jesus is well documented in history. In fact, it is one of the real lives that was lived we can be certain of.
    Even archaeology proves he lived in Palestine in the first century.
    Israel made a law in the first century BC that all Hebrew boys attend school from the age of 6-12 and the Bible records Jesus at the age of twelve in the temple talking to the doctors.
    History and the Bible agree since Jesus is right where he should have been at the age of twleve. Talking to the elders in the temple. There is much proof of Jesus' life.
    The words of Jesus are spirit and life since millions of lives have been changed by what he said.
    To imply that millions of sane Americans are mistaken in their belief of Jesus Christ being Messiah is not living in reality.
    The very success of the Gospel is much proof.
    You're wrong in your assessement that Islam frees women when in fact it does the opposite.
    Can you imagine being behind a veil continually? That is bondage, not freedom.
    Islam women today bear the witness of centuries of oppression. The face hiding veil is enough to show their inferiority to men.
    Jesus set sinners (women or men) free and if you read the Gospels, you will see this is true.
    It is a fact of history that Israel was the first and only ones to receive from God the revelation of who he is and that he is ONE God.
    The only code before that was the Nuzu law, the law Ishmael was born under.
    It was somehow gathered from the people of Ugarit that there is someone out there.
    Chaotic god and creative god was the beginning of the dawning that God is real.
    Where the OT states there are other gods, it means idols, dead statues and the like, such as Baal, Marduk, Diana, Onanna, etc., not living Gods. The Bible deos teach that only Yahweh is the living God and he is One.

    Also, Anders, concerning gods, you could be your own god, food could be your god, money could be your god. Anything could be our god.
    God spoke of anything before him is a sin since it will destroy since he alone can give life.
    He is God and there are no gods beside him.
    He said, "Is there a God beside me? I know of none."


    I don't know what you mean saying there are three gods in Christianity.

    Moderator, I am not familiar with Joseph Campbell. I guess I could look him up. My point though is that Israel originated everything in their Scriptures.
    They are first!
    If something was written after and sounds like it, it was simply copied.
     
  5. The Shield of Islam

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    Well, being PROUD MUSLIM and firm believer in Islam, I found your comments about the bible to be pure nonesense, I read your bible and believe me, it does not make any sense, it is filled with errors and contradictions, like these for example:

    Contradictory Doctrine and Commandments in the Bible

    Sex/Marriage:

    God's first words to Adam are the command to multiply (Gen 1: 28 ). It is not good for the man to be alone (Gen 2: 18 ).

    But any sexual activity causes uncleanness, as does childbirth (Ex 19:15, Lev 12, 15:16- 18 ) !

    The conception of a child is sin (Ps 51:5).
    Better alone than with a cantankerous woman (Prov 19:9, 25:24).

    Paul says to avoid marriage and sex (1 Cor 7:1, 8, 37).
    But it is better to marry than to burn (v. 9) !!!

    Eunuchs: They are NOT worthy to enter the congregation (Deut 23:1) ! But they are worthy to enter heaven (Matt 19:12) and they will have a special place there (Isaiah 56:3-5 )!! :roll:

    Is all scripture inspired of God?

    -YES says 2 Tim 3:16

    - NO according to Paul who said some of his words in the Bible are not inspired (2 Cor 11:17, 1 Cor 7:6, 12, 25).

    The scriptures do not bring salvation (John 5:39) !!


    Are there any who are righteous?

    -No (1 Kings 8:46, Mark 10:18, Rom 3:10, 23, Ps 14:3, 1 John 1: 8-10 ). Paul says he is the chief sinner (1 Tim 1:15).

    -YES according to James 5:16 (also Gen 7:1, Job 1:1, 8, 2:3, Luke 1:5-6, 15:7).

    Ezek 18 lists what one must do to be "just" (=righteous?). God only pro- tects the righteous (1 Pet 3:12), although Jesus died both for the just and the unjust (3: 18 ). True Christians do not sin (1 John 3:6-9). A man of God is perfect (2 Tim 3:17). Noah was perfect (Gen 6:9) !!

    Where is Satan? ( AMAZING QUIZ ! )

    A- Chained in hell (2 Pet 2:4, Jude 6) or
    B-Walking about in the earth (1 Pet 5:8 and Job 1:6-7) Job also says he occasionally visits heaven) or
    C- He is the god or prince of this world (John 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4, Eph 6:12). He was "cast out" at the time of Jesus (John 12:31) !!!

    What is Hell? ( WELL, THIS IS VERY HARD QUIZ, SO MANY OPTIONS TO CHOOSE FROM ! )

    -It is darkness (Lam 3:6, Ps 143:3, Job 10:22, Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30).

    - It is the grave, Hebrew Sheol or Gehenna, Greek Hades (Ps 16:10, Acts 2:27, 31, 32),

    -inside the earth (Pr 15:24, Ps 86:13, Isa 44:23, Eph 4:9), a "pit" (Ps 28:1, 30:3, Ezek 32: 18 )

    - a place of inactivity (Ps 6:5, Eccl 9:10, Isa 14:10, 38: 18 ) and silence (Ps 88:10, 94:17, 115:17).

    - Everyone goes there (Pr 27:20, Ezek 32:21), both soul and body (Job 14:22).

    - It is the "land of forgetfulness" (Ps 88:12)

    - where there is no pain, excitement, comfort or joy (Job 3:13-19, 17:16, 10:22).

    - Only the wicked go there (Matt 5:29ff, 10:28, Mark 9:43, Luke 16:22-25).

    -It destroys both soul and body (Matt 10: 28 ).

    -It is a place of torment, of "wailing and gnashing of teeth," a "furnace" or "lake" of "fire" (Matt 3:12, 5:22, 13:42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:41, Luke 16:23, 2 Thess 1:8 , Jude 1:7, Rev 16:10; and "brimstone" Rev 14:10, 20:14, 21: 8 ) which is "unquenchable" (Mark 9:43, 45, Isa 66:24). The fire and its punishment are "everlasting" (Matt 25:41, 46, 2
    Thess 1:9),

    -whose purpose is to punish unbelievers while Jesus and the angels watch (2 Thess 1:8, Jude 1:7, Rev 14:10) !!!!

    Earth:

    -It is everlasting (Gen 49:26, Deut 33:15, Ps 78:69, 104:5, Eccl 1:4, 3:14).

    -It will be destroyed (Ps 102:25-26, Isa 24:19, 65:17, Matt 5:18, 24:3, 6ff, 35, also Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33, 2 Cor 5:17, 2 Pet 3:10-12, Rev 21:1, Heb 1:10- 11) !

    Whose is the Earth?

    - Satan's (John 12:31, 14:30, 2 Cor 4:4, Eph 6:12). OR,

    - Jesus' (1 Cor 10:26, Rev 1:5) OR,

    - God's (Ex 9:29, 19:5, Deut 10:14, Ps 24:1, 50:12, 89:11) OR,

    - Mankind's (Ps 115:16) !!!

    Was Jesus the first to rise from the dead?

    -YES says Acts 26:23 but OPPS !! we have Contradiction here :

    1 Kings 17:17-22 (Elijah raises a dead child), 2 Kings 4:32-35 (Elisha raises the son of a Shunammite woman), 2 Kings 13:21 (Elisha's bones revive a dead man), 1 Sam 28:7-15 (Saul calls up Samuel), Luke 9:28-30 (Moses and Elijah come back at the Transfiguration), Matt 9:18-25 (Jesus raises Jairus' daughter), Luke 7:11-15 (Jesus raises widow's son), John 11:43-44 (Jesus raises Lazarus). Jesus tells the parable of Lazarus, who is taken to heaven ("Abraham's bosom") at Luke 16:19ff (this indicates that Abraham is already in heaven) !!! :roll:

    Should we "run"?

    - YES says 1 Cor 9:24.
    - NO says Rom 3:10 !!!

    Should we boast?

    - No (Luke 18:9-14, Rom 11:20, 1 Pet 5:5) But Paul boasts of his faith and says one should be proud of it(Rom 15:17, 2 Cor 1:12, 2:14, 5:12, 11:17, Heb 3:6) !!!!!!!

    The bible is filled with amazing quizes and amusing contradictory commands ! read, relax and have some fun !
     
  6. cruzmanis

    cruzmanis New Member

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    ShieldofIslam, I see you have not read the Bible at all. You grab a verse from the New and cannot connect it to the old, so you make fun of it.
    (I can show you where the Qu'ran lies.)

    I will not copy and paste someone's else's work, but will tell you from my own memory of reading the Bible the story found there.
    The Bible is in order. It tells a story. One story. Of one Man. JESUS CHRIST.
    It begins with the record of creation and then it goes on to tell of the creation of the human race.

    God tells the man and woman (he wants them together;it is called marriage) to freely eat of any tree in the garden, however he instructs them not to eat of the tree that is in the midst of the garden.

    Everything is fine until a serpent comes and calls God a liar and tells the couple that if they disobey God, they will be like God knowing good and evil. They do it.
    God comes to the scene of disobedience and destruction and gives a promise to them (he also punished them) by telling the serpent this; "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." (Genesis 3:15)

    ADAM AND EVE CLEARLY HEARD WHAT GOD SAID TO THE SERPENT, so THEY KNEW SOMEONE WOULD COME.

    This is the first prophecy of Jesus Christ the Messiah.

    God sends them out of the garden.

    They have Cain and Abel.

    Cain kills Abel. Because Cain was of the wicked one and Abel's works were righteous (1John 3:12) because he brought God a blood offering whereas Cain brought fruit from the ground.

    ShieldofIslam, God made it clear that he would send someone to help them out of the mess they got into by disobeying God. Noiw we keep reading the Bible.

    Seth is born. Then comes Enos. Then comes Cainan. Then comes Mahalaleel.
    Then Jared. Then Enoch. Then Methuselah. Then Lamech. Then comes Noah. All sons.
    (A total of 64 sons are born which eventually lead to the birth of Jesus Christ, son of David, Son of God.)

    God destroys the world because of sin.

    He saves Noah and his family.( Ham, Shem, and Japheth) and their wives and Noah's wife also.

    Noah curses Cainan. Noah blesses Shem and Japheth.

    Shem is the father of the Hebrews, of whom the Bible tells of this family only.

    Other nations are mentioned in the Bible, but only in their relation to Israel.

    Shem is the father of all the children of Eber (Eber meaning from across the river)

    Shem has Elam.
    Elam has Asshur, and every name is recorded in the Bible in the Old Testament and in the New that 64 sons are born in an unbroken line until Jesus is born to Mary in Bethlehem. It is the geneology of Jesus Christ, the only One in the history of the world whose pedigree can be traced back and is recorded name by name to Adam then to God.

    Mary was a direct descendent of Nathan, a son of king David.
    Joseph was a direct descendent of Solomon, another son of king David.

    Mary was the legal wife of Joseph and Joseph was in direct line to the throne of David, which made Jesus the heir apparnet to the throne of David. Herod was not. He wasn't even a Jew.
    When Jesus was born, Rome had been in control of Israel for a long time.

    The Hebrew prophets preached for Israel to return to God. In their preaching, the promise of a Deliverer was present, not because the Hebrew prophets saw this, or were starry eyed mystics, but they were men of passion who loved Yahweh and were true to thei calling and purpose.

    The message of Messiah came naturally because of the great calling and ministry; it was a part of their message because they were called of God and in God was the promise of Genesis 3:15.

    Jesus Christ was the culmination of the hebrew prophets

    Jesus told his cousin John who baptized him.."Thus it becomes us to fulfill ALL righteousness."

    "all righteousness" was EVERY LAW GOD HAD GIVEN TO ISRAEL.

    Jesus Christ fulfilled the law because he never sinned against His Father who was God.

    Muhammed was a man born of a man and a woman, who died and is still dead.

    As God, Christ had no mother and as man, he had no father.

    He was the Godman and because he was the Son of God born of a virgin and conceived of the Holy Ghost, and rose from the dead after he was executed by the Romans who were in conspiracy with the Jews is ABLE to save to the uttermost all who come to him because he is ALIVE today.

    Taking verses out of context is an old Muslim endeavor, but it doesn't work because when the Bible is read in order from front to end, it tells the beautiful story of redemption through Christ.

    How God formed a nation. Israel.
    And chose a family. Isaac's all to bring Christ into the world

    Jesus is from the human line of Adam
    the promise line of Abraham
    The true heir line of Isaac
    the national line of Jacob
    the tribal line of Judah
    the kingly line of David

    He is the Lily of the valley. The Rose of Sharon, The First and the Last. The Alpha and Omega and all this means he is all there is and there ain't no more.
    All power belongs to him alone. Jesus is omnipresent because he said so in the Bible. "Lo, I am with you always." and "Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst."

    He could not do that if he were not omnipresent, but he is with the christian today.

    He is the Beginning and the Ending. He that was, is and is to come...

    The Almighty (See Revelation 1:8) (funny face not intended)

    There are no inconsistencies in the Bible, but you must understand the call of Abraham, the Law and the Prophets. And the kings. Jesus was also NOT a priest.

    With all due respect to you, and your right to believe what you want, I am a believer in Jesus and feel it is my part to witness of the Bible's truth.

    You simply took verses out of context.
     
  7. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    ***MOD POST***

    Will someone please tell me why there is debating going on in no-debate forum?

    Stop it!

    cruzmanis, this topic is titled "What Do Muslims Believe?" NOT "What do Christians Believe?"

    Next off topic comment will be deleted!
     
  8. cruzmanis

    cruzmanis New Member

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    Runt.......Would you say that ShieldofIslam's post is appropriate for this thread?
    I thought this was to debate. Exactly what thread is for debate? With Muslims?
    You have a passion, I see. Well, one of my greatest passions in life is proving Islam wrong.
     
  9. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    cruzmanis:

    I'm going to ask you to read the Forum Rules before posting again. The individual religion forums are for sharing and learning about that religion. Debating the ideas or beliefs of that religion is not allowed in that forum. These are "safe" places for those following that religion to talk without being debated or flamed. If there is a religion or idea you would like to Debate, please take it to the Religious Debates Forum.


    Thank You.
     
  10. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    ***MOD POST***

    We are here to learn and fully understand. We should fully understand before we try to prove something wrong. There is a General Religion Debate Forum.
     
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