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What do Muslims believe?

Discussion in 'Islam DIR' started by best friend, Mar 22, 2004.

  1. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Ocelot,

    You seem to think that the Gospels were written by the persons after whom they are named. If you look in any serious book on Bible history, you will find expressions like "Mark's author", "Ascribed to John", etc. A university textbook, Stephen L. Harris: "Understanding the Bible", clearly states that "Careful study of the Gospel texts does not confirm either the traditional authorship or the belief that the writers were eyewitnesses to the events themselves." This seems to be a consensus view.

    The statement that Jesus claimed divinity is not uncontroversial. In a few verses, Jesus uses a father-son simile. The use of kinship words in Semitic languages has very wide meanings. We can all (if we believe in a god) say that we are that god's children, without claming divinity. The statements of Jesus' divinity do not come from himself but are often rumours being quoted. A typical example is John 10:33, where "the Jews" say that Jesus has made himself into God. Characteristically, Jesus neither confirms or denies that he is divine.

    We can use the narratives of Jesus and his life as sources of inspiration for leading an acceptable life, but we will never know with any degree of certainty what happened or who said what when and where. Faith is, of course, another thing.
     
  2. The Ocelot

    The Ocelot Member

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  3. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    ***MOD POST***

    Ocelot, this forum is for an informative overview of Islam, and is not a debate forum.

    Anders, I know you are not trying to debate about Islam, but you are giving Ocelot more incentive to continue this argument.

    You guys can make a new thread in the debate forum if you wish to continue this discussion, but please do not do so here.

    Thank you.
     
  4. The Ocelot

    The Ocelot Member

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    Sorry (lol) I've only posted 9 times so far and I'm already a troublemaker. :)

    You'll discover that I am a debater at heart. Please forgive me.

    The Ocelot
     
  5. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    LOL, don't apoligize. I am a natural debater too... but we have to do it in the right forum... :p
     
  6. The Shield of Islam

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    Well, salvation in Islam come through work and faith together unlike christianity which says basically, you can kill, rape, steal and fornicate and dont worry about it, Jesus will pay the bill.

    theological errors from christian point of view ???? we dont accept the authority of the bible, the bible for us is corrupt book, we only take what agrees with the Noble Quran.

    According to your bible, NO CHRISTIAN will go to heaven:

    For Example :

    " But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire . " Matthew 5:22

    Surely most of christians have said bad words now and then, therefore according to Jesus , most of you will taste the Fires of Hell and are not Free from punishment according to Jesus !!!!

    Jesus made several statements implanting uncertainty in the hearts and minds of his listeners regarding their Salvation

    For Example :

    " Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven . " Matthew 7:21

    If Jesus is our Savior , why would he say calling upon him as 'Lord' on the Day of Judgement will Not Save Us ?

    Jesus even told a entire generation that there is No Escape from Hell for them, and what they have done will be with them:

    "..How can ye escape the damnation of Hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the *blood of Innocent Abel* unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. *Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation* ." Mt 23:33-36

    How can a Christian be sure they are saved when Jesus repeatedly says that with a sinning eye or a sinning hand, We Will Go to Hell , Jesus even offers a remedy by suggesting we cut off our hand or pluck out our eye to avoid Hell , this certainly leaves the listeners Unsure if they will go to Hell or not unless they take drastic measures :

    " And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire " Mark 9:47

    " And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched " Mark 9:43

    Jesus even says you will be cast into Hell if you do not behave in accordance with the Will of God :

    " And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. " Matthew 3:10

    " Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. " Matthew 7:19

    How many Christians live undisciplined lives , producing bad fruit and expecting Jesus will save them ? How can they be sure when Jesus makes it perfectly clear they will go to Hell ?

    Jesus is saying Every Sinner will be cast into the Fire.

    Where does Jesus say every sinner will be saved through the
    blood of Jesus ?

    Even at the Supper table , Jesus said his blood is shed for _many_ not , all .

    It even seems as though Jesus came to Warn you about Hell rather than save you from Hell, Jesus came to give you Uncertainty of our Salvation:

    " I have come to cast a fire on the earth; and what will I if already it has been kindled? " Luke 12:49

    Jesus also directly warns that if you do not obey him, you will be thrown into Hell:

    " Unless any one abide in me he is cast out as the branch, and is dried up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. " John 15:6 (also John 5:24)

    According to the Gospel, it is possible to fall out of the Christian faith through sin;
    "For how can those who abandon their faith be brought back to repent again? They were once in God's light; they tasted heaven's gift and received their share of the Holy Spirit; they knew from experience that God's word is good, and they had felt the powers of the coming age. And then they abandoned their faith! It is impossible to bring them back to repent again, because they are again crucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

    and that Christians are not fully saved until they enter the heavenly kingdom ( 1 Peter 1:4-5)

    Even in the Old Testament , there is Absolute Uncertainty if we will go to Hell or not : There is a prediction in Psalms that the Sinners will go to Hell, similar to what Jesus says:
    "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the (nations) that forget God." Ps 9:17

    Does this include all with in the evil nations such as Germany in WW!! ? or America during Hiroshima etc.. ?

    In Isaiah which we assume predicted Jesus , also predicts Hell will take even the people who are boastful :
    " Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it ." Isaiah 5:14

    In conclusion , "Let him who thinks he stands take care lest he fall" (1 Corinthians 10:12).

    We see that Jesus did not come to remove _all_ sin, but in fact to warn us of Hell and assist us in receiving forgiveness, but certainly not removing our responsibility to obey the commandments "otherwise we will
    be thrown into Hell" as Jesus continuously warned.

    Even at the sacrifice where the crucifixion of Jesus was supposedly a action to forgive the human race, why would Jesus ask God "Forgive them fore they know not what they do" if the crucifixion was indeed the Ultimate sacrifice ? Why would Jesus need to ask God to forgive us if the assumed shedding of Jesus's blood was in fact a means of atonement ?

    Unless perhaps the crucifixion was not a ultimate method of forgiveness and in fact we are very much in danger of Hell as it is written in the Old Testament and the Gospel of Jesus .

    How then can we be saved if we are still in danger of the Hell Fire as Jesus warns ?

    Allah (which means - God - in the Semitic Arabic language) gives us many clear signs in the Holy Quran to assure us we will be saved , Allah clarifies the Favors bestowed upon us and in return Allah only asks you believe in the Day of Judgement , in those Allah sent to us (including Jesus) and follow the teachings of the Quran .

    " Those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, will have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . " {Translation of the Holy Quran 2:277}

    http://www.jesus-or-allah.com
     
  7. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    ***MOD POST***

    Sheild, this is a forum for learning about Islam. There will be no debating in any of the seperate religion forums. These forums are for learning about the individual religions.

    If you wish to debate a certain religion or issue take it to the general discussion/debate/or off-topic sections. If someone posts a comment that is inflammatory in the religion forums, DO NOT RESPOND! Contact a moderator and we will deal with it as we see fit.

    If you have any questions about this, please PM me or another moderator.

    Thank you.
    Maize
     
  8. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Trying to get back on topic, I would like, because I have an education in chemistry, to distill out the facts on Muslim beliefs from Shield's interesting post.

    "... we only take what agrees with the Noble Quran"

    "... salvation in Islam comes through work and faith together "

    The last point would be interesting to discuss from a comparative point of view under another topic.
     
  9. someone

    someone Member

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    When you talk about your relegion, you should not get angry at all or lose your focus. In my opinion, I think that when you talk to others, you have to have the spirit of "Looking for the truth". And the idea that the other may be true also. So, when he give me something I will try to help him and search with him, because I'm looking for the truth where ever it is.

    But if we have (which is mostly the case) the idea that I'm right and he is wrong, and he is not convinced because he don't like it or don't like me...etc.. in this manner, the debate is really useless. Because no one will reach to any result.

    Well, if I belive that the moon really splitted, let's see togather is that right or wrong. Although it is the job of who claim that to do so, but if we try to be in his side, and he tried to be in the other side, I think the result will be nice.

    <<I don't know, just an opinion.>>

    (sorry for the language, I'm not native english speaker)
     
  10. someone

    someone Member

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    As I know.

    Islam's main concept is that, Allah(the God) Creates every thing. And he is the only creator. And he creates mankind on the earth. And the main aim for that is (as in Chapter 67-2):
    "Who has created death and life, that He may test you which of you is best in deed.[] And He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving;"

    And since he creates and he want to test, the rules should come from him, and the definition of good and bad also should come from him. So, he sends prophets (the first of them was the first of all mankind) between time to time when people lose the way and go far from the truth (Chapter 4-165):
    "Messengers as bearers of good news as well as of warning in order that mankind should have no plea against Allâh after the Messengers. And Allâh is Ever All­Powerful, All­Wise."

    And he sealed the prophecy by the last of them (Mohammad) and the book revealed to him will be the only right book from God from that time. And Mohammad's sayings describes it and give details of things in it.

    And the fields that are touched by Islam (in Quran and Mohammad's sayings) is every thing. I mean every field in the life (what so ever is it) is governed and ruled by Islam. Praying, Charity, Politics, War and fighting, Law, Family relationships,...etc even what one do in toilet.

    And then, the judging on this test is done by him(Allah The God) on the last day. When every single body in mankind will be judged of what did he do according to the rules sent to him by prophets. And according to that, it will be eternal life in paradise or in hell.

    I hope I'm clear..
     
  11. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    Nice post. If more people felt this way we would have fewer wars. I like the "let's learn together" approach.
     
  12. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    As ever so often, I agree with Lightkeeper. And, someone, don't apologize for being a non-native speaker. What matters is communication, and you make yourself perfectly clear. We non-natives are allowed to make mistakes when using English. Just think about how many speakers of English would be able to use our languages... "What do you call people who speak many languages? Polyglots. And people who spek two languages? Bilinguals. And people who speak just one language? Americans."

    Allaahu waahidun, whatever we may call him/her/it in our respective languages.
     
  13. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    Heh... and then think how many NATIVE English speakers CAN'T communicate with their own language. This is a little off-topic (obviously) but I know people who speak English as a second language, and I'm assuming that because they learn to speak it properly from the very beginning, they tend to have better vocabularies, if not a better grasp of the language, than many native speakers. Someone, I understood you perfectly well, and Anders... I can't even tell by your writing that English is not your first language (except, as I already said, that you speak English better than native English speakers).
     
  14. someone

    someone Member

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    Thank you all, :oops:

    Back to Islam: To go into detials of the relegion(Islam) it is not an easy task. If you take a look at the Islamic studies, you will find how big is the subject. A whole PHD is focused only is a very small part of Islam.

    In islam, for example, the system of distributing the money of a dead person is one of the complicated systems and perfect complete systems that ensure fair distribution of money using a defined mathemitical formulas found in Quran and Sunnah(Prophet Mohammad Legacy).

    Although I memorize the whole Holy Quran, but still I can't go and talk in every part until I read and ask and after that still it is not my study. I'm computer engineer.

    One may ask, if Islam is that difficult, and it is not easy, so how can it be for every body to follow? Answer is: The main things needed to be known to be a Muslim is easy to be understood by every body. And through life, Mulims should be in contact with Islamic Sceintists to ask about things they don't know, and things that happen in their life.

    One more thing, in Islam, there is nothing called <<A religious man>>. Every Muslim is a religious man. Everybody in Islam, men or women, are religious persons. But some knows better than others. And Muslims are told to respect whoever knows more.

    I hope I'm clear. :smile:
     
  15. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    Taks, gracias, merci, danka :lol:
     
  16. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    Question? You mentioned that women are in Islam and religious. I have heard that women can't be a part of traditional Islam and have their own religion.
     
  17. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Not bad, Lightkeeper, two correct out of four: it is tack and danke.

    And I just don't understand why you think that women are excluded in any way in Islam. There are countless instances where "man and woman" is written in the Qur'an, when duties or privilegies are discussed. I like that Adam and Eve are equally blamed for the "fall" in the garden of Eden. There is a whole, long chapter named "woman" in the Qur'an, and some of the views are quite revolutionary in giving women rights far beyond what was usual in those days anywhere in the world. Have a look at http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/ , for example the subsection WOMEN IN ISLAM VERSUS WOMEN IN THE JUDAEO-CHRISTIAN TRADITION. Just one quote:
    "Islam, since the seventh century C.E., has granted married women the independent personality which the Judaeo-Christian West had deprived them until very recently. ... a marriage gift. This gift is considered her property and neither the groom nor the bride's family have any share in or control over it. ... The bride retains her marriage gifts even if she is later divorced. The husband is not allowed any share in his wife's property except what she offers him with her free consent. The Quran has stated its position on this issue quite clearly:
    'And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift'"
    (From the chapter "Woman"; Qur'an 4:4)
     
  18. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    In the book "The Seed of Abraham" by Raphael Patai, Patai speaks of Muslim women not being allowed to practice traditional Islam. They crave religion and form their own religion.
     
  19. someone

    someone Member

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    Dear Lightkeeper,

    Don't take information about any religion from people out of that religion.

    And I want to clearify something about women. First of all, as Islam main concept states Muslim must accept any concept from God in Quran or in Sunnah whether he like it or not or convinced with it or not, because God has the full knowledg and he knows better who and what he've created.

    Second, the purpose of creating the men was different from the women. And for that, the men is different in physical, biological, psychological, and other things than the women. And that because they have different job in this life. As in Islam, Adam was created from sand, which gives the idea of working with the earth and things comeout from it. Eva, was created from (I don't have the english name) the part that cover the heart in the chest, which gives the idea of working with emotions, families relationships, childrens...etc. So, Islam see the women as half of the society which creates the other half, since it is her job to take care of the man and his house and their children. She has the most part of the nurturing prcess, which form the men character later, which finally create a society. She is (and according to psychological study) much better that the man in this position.

    Ofcourse, she is allowed to work in any kind of work normally, but two things has to be there: 1) she must not lose her family(the main purpose). 2) she must not work in something(e.g.truck driver) that make her lose her Female properties(softness...etc). And in Islam, the husband must feed his wife with money.

    And as the women goes older and older, she become bigger in people eyes and gain more respect from all.

    And about religion duties, she is almost the same as the man, with lettel differences according to different biological creation and different creation purpose.

    To have an idea of the level of the position of the mother, read this(17, 23-24)
    23. And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour.

    24. And lower unto them the wing of submission and humility through mercy, and say: "My Lord! Bestow on them Your Mercy as they did bring me up when I was small."
    ______

    and there is alot in Islam about the mother, and the women generally.

    before prophet Mohammad die, his last words was (my translation) "...take care of the women..."

    :smile:
     
  20. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Patai, a Hungarian-born Jew who died in 1996 at 86, has written many books. One of them is named The Arab Mind. The title suggests 19th century racist views, but he seems to be more knowledgeable than that. In any way, he is a gnostic who severely criticizes Christianity and Arabs/Islam.

    It can be argued that the name of this topic is "What do Muslims believe?" and not "What does the Holy Qur'an say?". In any case, I think that Patai must have faced difficulties when trying to substantiate his views. What kind of proof does he offer?

    Do look at the site I suggested. Woman's position and rights in the three Abrahamic religions are compared using quotations from the respective holy books. Islam emerges very favourably in the process. The author is probably biased, but so is Patai, and I hope that a US university site can be trusted to publish fair comparisons.
     
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