What do Jews find strange about Christianity and why.

[dybmh]

There were other scriptures noted in the article that support a divine Messiah, and the New Testament and history has shown that Jesus was divine. He prophesied he would raise himself from the dead, and that's what happened. Only God can do that. Plus, there's more:

The Deity of Messiah in the Tenach and other Jewish Writings

First: I respect your beliefs as a Christian. I hope in turn, you will respect my beliefs as a Jew. I'm sorry, I don't believe that Jesus raised himself from the dead.

That said, I'll read the linked article and the recent replies to this thread.

Thank you,

 

[Rival]

What you missed is that Jesus prophecies he would raise himself from the dead. John 2:19 Only God can do that.



Sure it does.

Prophecies of the Resurrection

Alright, you think this is about Jesus?

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

He had no children and lived to 33. That's neither seeing his seed nor prolonging his days.

Psalm 22 is written by David about G-d.

Isaiah 53 is about Israel.

Saying psalm 16 is about Jesus is really funny because it says this,

their drink offerings of blood will I not offer,

When Christians drink Jesus' blood.

Genesis 3:15 is talking about a snake, which is not necessarily interpreted as Satan within normative Judaism.

 

[Spartan]

Alright, you think this is about Jesus?

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

He had no children and lived to 33. That's neither seeing his seed nor prolonging his days.

Psalm 22 is written by David about G-d.

Isaiah 53 is about Israel.

Saying psalm 16 is about Jesus is really funny because it says this,

their drink offerings of blood will I not offer,

When Christians drink Jesus' blood.

Genesis 3:15 is talking about a snake, which is not necessarily interpreted as Satan within normative Judaism.

It's spiritual seed in Isaiah 53. And there's NO WAY Isaiah 53 is about Israel. Besides numerous ancient rabbis confirming it's about the Messiah, there's this:


1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"

2. The prophet said: "It pleased the LORD to bruise him." Has the awful treatment of the Jewish people (so contrary, by the way, to the teaching of Jesus to love everyone) really been God's pleasure, as is said of the suffering of the servant in Isaiah 53:10 ? If, as some rabbis contend, Isaiah 53 refers to the holocaust, can we really say of Israel's suffering during that horrible period, "It pleased the LORD to bruise him?" Yet it makes perfect sense to say that God was pleased to have Messiah suffer and die as our sin offering to provide us forgiveness and atonement.

3. The person mentioned in this passage suffers silently and willingly. Yet all people, even Israelites, complain when they suffer! Brave Jewish men and women fought in resistance movements against Hitler. Remember the Vilna Ghetto Uprising? Remember the Jewish men who fought on the side of the allies? Can we really say Jewish suffering during the holocaust and during the preceding centuries was done silently and willingly?

4. The figure described in Isaiah 53 suffers, dies, and rises again to atone for his people's sins. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 53:10 for "sin-offering" is "asham," which is a technical term meaning "sin-offering." See how it is used in Leviticus chapters 5 and 6. Isaiah 53 describes a sinless and perfect sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of others so that they might be forgiven. Can anyone really claim that the terrible suffering of the Jewish people, however undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world? Whoever Isaiah 53 speaks of, the figure described suffers and dies in order to provide a legal payment for sin so that others can be forgiven. This cannot be true of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.

5. It is the prophet who is speaking in this passage. He says: "who has believed our message." The term "message" usually refers to the prophetic message, as it does in Jeremiah 49:14. Also, when we understand the Hebrew parallelism of verse 1, we see "Who has believed our message" as parallel to "to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed." The "arm of the Lord" refers to God's powerful act of salvation. So the message of the speaker is the message of a prophet declaring what God has done to save his people.

6. The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel? (website no longer exists)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

and the New Testament and history has shown that Jesus was divine.

That isn't historical proof or evidence, as of it were then we could say Beowolf is a historic account. Or any religious diety who is recoded as allegedly saying something and then that somwthing happens later in the story.

 

[Harel13]

You're the one in the dark, Harel. Do your homework.

Why? I know my stuff. I'm asking about your stuff. You answer. Enlighten me, since you understand the Bible and Judaism so much better than I do.

 

[Spartan]

Why? I know my stuff. I'm asking about your stuff. You answer. Enlighten me, since you understand the Bible and Judaism so much better than I do.

Read the New Testament to get my views on the historical Jesus, etc.

 

[Spartan]

That isn't historical proof or evidence, as of it were then we could say Beowolf is a historic account. Or any religious diety who is recoded as allegedly saying something and then that somwthing happens later in the story.

You're on record as denying pretty much everything about historical Christianity, so I don't have any warm and fuzzy feelings about your claims.

 

[Rival]

It's spiritual seed in Isaiah 53. And there's NO WAY Isaiah 53 is about Israel. Besides numerous ancient rabbis confirming it's about the Messiah, there's this:


1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"

2. The prophet said: "It pleased the LORD to bruise him." Has the awful treatment of the Jewish people (so contrary, by the way, to the teaching of Jesus to love everyone) really been God's pleasure, as is said of the suffering of the servant in Isaiah 53:10 ? If, as some rabbis contend, Isaiah 53 refers to the holocaust, can we really say of Israel's suffering during that horrible period, "It pleased the LORD to bruise him?" Yet it makes perfect sense to say that God was pleased to have Messiah suffer and die as our sin offering to provide us forgiveness and atonement.

3. The person mentioned in this passage suffers silently and willingly. Yet all people, even Israelites, complain when they suffer! Brave Jewish men and women fought in resistance movements against Hitler. Remember the Vilna Ghetto Uprising? Remember the Jewish men who fought on the side of the allies? Can we really say Jewish suffering during the holocaust and during the preceding centuries was done silently and willingly?

4. The figure described in Isaiah 53 suffers, dies, and rises again to atone for his people's sins. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 53:10 for "sin-offering" is "asham," which is a technical term meaning "sin-offering." See how it is used in Leviticus chapters 5 and 6. Isaiah 53 describes a sinless and perfect sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of others so that they might be forgiven. Can anyone really claim that the terrible suffering of the Jewish people, however undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world? Whoever Isaiah 53 speaks of, the figure described suffers and dies in order to provide a legal payment for sin so that others can be forgiven. This cannot be true of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.

5. It is the prophet who is speaking in this passage. He says: "who has believed our message." The term "message" usually refers to the prophetic message, as it does in Jeremiah 49:14. Also, when we understand the Hebrew parallelism of verse 1, we see "Who has believed our message" as parallel to "to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed." The "arm of the Lord" refers to God's powerful act of salvation. So the message of the speaker is the message of a prophet declaring what God has done to save his people.

6. The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel? (website no longer exists)

Have you read the preceding chapter? This is about Israel as is said multiple times in the beginning of chapter 52. Israel is identified as the servant in numerous other passages. Chapter 54 continues with the theme of Israel's redemption. That's without mentioning, as I already have, the problems with interpreting this to be about Jesus specifically. Jesus did not have children and he did not live beyond 33. To one of your earlier points, chapter 52 says,

'The L-rd has revealed His holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our G-d.'

This hasn't happened yet. Where is Israel's salvation? They are still a scattered nation without a King or a Temple, still being fought against.

Unless you accept that Israel remains Israel, that's there's no such thing as a spiritual Israel, then we are going to butt-heads. The Messiah is for Israel. The Messiah is going to be a King who will bring peace to Israel - the real Israel.

 

[Spartan]

Have you read the preceding chapter? This is about Israel as is said multiple times in the beginning of chapter 52. Israel is identified as the servant in numerous other passages. Chapter 54 continues with the theme of Israel's redemption. That's without mentioning, as I already have, the problems with interpreting this to be about Jesus specifically. Jesus did not have children and he did not live beyond 33. To one of your earlier points, chapter 52 says,

'The L-rd has revealed His holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our G-d.'

This hasn't happened yet. Where is Israel's salvation? They are still a scattered nation without a King or a Temple, still being fought against.

Unless you accept that Israel remains Israel, that's there's no such thing as a spiritual Israel, then we are going to butt-heads. The Messiah is for Israel. The Messiah is going to be a King who will bring peace to Israel - the real Israel.

Can you point me to the time in Israel's history when they became the sacrifice of Isaiah 53? It's never happened. Nor is Israel innocent like Isaiah 53 demands.

As for the "seed" (zera) of Isaiah 53, here's an article on it that goes into detail

Whose Seed Shall the Messiah See?

 

[Harel13]

Read the New Testament to get my views on the historical Jesus, etc.

Really? No way for you to quickly type an answer to my question (did Jesus start out as the son of Joseph and in the second coming he'll somehow become the son of David?)?

 

[Rival]

Can you point me to the time in Israel's history when they became the sacrifice of Isaiah 53? It's never happened. Nor is Israel innocent like Isaiah 53 demands.

As for the "seed" (zera) of Isaiah 53, here's an article on it that goes into detail

Whose Seed Shall the Messiah See?

Look I understand that you are posting these for me to read and you are doing so in good faith, but could you just type a basic answer for me? I'm already very familiar with your and other Christian arguments as I was a Christian most of my life. I think it would just be easier for both of us if you could just give a simpler answer because I'm not new to your understanding.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You're on record as denying pretty much everything about historical Christianity

Define "historic Christianity." I'm still very well informed and knowledgeable on church history, and that it's largely only deniable if you're an idiot. However, dead people returning to life, turning water into wine, walking on water, supernatural events like those are easily dismissable.

 

[1213]

…Anyone who actually reads Hebrew can see that the master (not the Christian mistranslation as capital L “Lord”) transliterated as “l’adonee” is David himself.….

I can agree that the lord means master, or something else than God. But, I think it is in no way reasonable to claim that it means David, because then David would be saying: “Yahweh says to my me, …”.

 

[1213]

Abraham. Check out the talmud Sanhedrin 108b, or just read the Rashi commentary on the verse. But beware your translation. The Hebrew word is adoni, my lord. There is no indicator of a capital letter.

Do you have easily link to that?

 

[1213]

2 Shmuel 7:10-13
…..
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history.

Thank you for the scriptures. I think most of these are about God doing things, not about Messiah.

Yeshayahu 2-4
…
People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

Bible tells Jesus is the temple of God, or corner stone of that temple and disciples of Jesus are the other stones. So, I think the temple is already built.

Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1 Corinthians 3:16

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of …

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

And I think it is not the job of Messiah, but something God does.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13
And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.

And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.

I think Jews were already gathered back from Egypt. I don’t see why this would be about Messiah.

Yirmiyahu 31:33

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

Yes, and I think that happens through the words Jesus declared. And I think it would be good to understand first, Jesus spoke what God had commanded him to speak.

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak…
John 12:49

"My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me….
John 7:16-17

The words Jesus told, can make a change in person mind so that the law is written in person heart.

…That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

And person can have the Holy Spirit to teach:

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?
Luke 11:13

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and will remind you of all that I said to you.
John 14:26


So, disciple of Jesus will have God’s spirit to guide them. And then “they shall all know Me” comes true.

 

[Rival]

Bible tells Jesus is the temple of God, or corner stone of that temple and disciples of Jesus are the other stones. So, I think the temple is already built.

Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1 Corinthians 3:16

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21

Ezekiel describes a literal Temple and Scripture declares that the Messiah will bring offerings to the Temple.

I think Jews were already gathered back from Egypt. I don’t see why this would be about Messiah.

The ten lost tribes are still lost.

Yes, and I think that happens through the words Jesus declared. And I think it would be good to understand first, Jesus spoke what God had commanded him to speak.

This is a very charitable interpretation at best.

 

[Rival]

I find it strange that Christians take simple passages and conflate them into something bizarrely vague and full of woo.

 

[McBell]

I find it strange that Christians take simple passages and conflate them into something bizarrely vague and full of woo.

Is that not what Christianity is?

 

[cataway]

Have you read the preceding chapter? This is about Israel as is said multiple times in the beginning of chapter 52. Israel is identified as the servant in numerous other passages. Chapter 54 continues with the theme of Israel's redemption. That's without mentioning, as I already have, the problems with interpreting this to be about Jesus specifically. Jesus did not have children and he did not live beyond 33. To one of your earlier points, chapter 52 says,

'The L-rd has revealed His holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our G-d.'

This hasn't happened yet. Where is Israel's salvation? They are still a scattered nation without a King or a Temple, still being fought against.

Unless you accept that Israel remains Israel, that's there's no such thing as a spiritual Israel, then we are going to butt-heads. The Messiah is for Israel. The Messiah is going to be a King who will bring peace to Israel - the real Israel.

no spiritual Israel? actually there is .they were grafted in. the Jew's that did not believe Jesus were lopped off.


Romans11 :17'' However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If, though, you are arrogant toward them, remember that you do not bear the root, but the root bears you. 19 You will say, then: “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Do not be haughty, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Consider, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. There is severity toward those who fell, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you too will be lopped off. 23 And they also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them back in. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!''

you still have time . you could acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah . then grow on root of Jesʹse,
And again Isaiah says: “There will be the root of Jesʹse, the one arising to rule nations; on him nations will rest their hope (Romans 15:12)

 

[Rival]

no spiritual Israel? actually there is .they were grafted in. the Jew's that did not believe Jesus were lopped off.


Romans11 :17'' However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If, though, you are arrogant toward them, remember that you do not bear the root, but the root bears you. 19 You will say, then: “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Do not be haughty, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Consider, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. There is severity toward those who fell, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you too will be lopped off. 23 And they also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them back in. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!''

you still have time . you could acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah . then grow on root of Jesʹse,
And again Isaiah says: “There will be the root of Jesʹse, the one arising to rule nations; on him nations will rest their hope (Romans 15:12)

This says nothing as it's not scripture to me.