What do Jews find strange about Christianity and why.

[rosends]

Is this post acknowledging that what I said is correct? That: YHWSH means YHWH is salvation.

If I remember correctly you are a Rabbi aren't you? I admit my knowledge of the Hebrew is inferior to yours. I promise you, if I say anything to you that is in error it would be a mistake. I would never intentionally mislead or hide something or try to trick someone. I hope you are being straight forward with me also. Because I was starting to question myself on this, since I know you know the language better than I do.

Then I realized I could look it up in the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew - English Lexicon. Then I found on page 221 that YHWSH means YHWH is Salvation. (of course it has the Hebrew letters)

As I stated, trying to intuit the meaning of a name which is the combination of letters (as a sort of portmanteau) if the text does not say the precise meaning is a useless activity. Letters are added to other words/names elsewhere in the text, but where else did someone decide that the English translation "God is ___"?

 

[Rival]

Only the Jews before AD70 actually know about what are rumored about the Messiah.

The Tanakh tells us about the Messiah and what he will do. Rumours are just that.

After AD70, there are more than 200 years of an empty period that the Jews are scattered without the religion organized till after AD250 that a group of rabbis coming from no where revive Judaism.

There have always been Jews practicing Judaism. The Jews are still scattered and guess what? There's still Judaism.

Today's Judaism don't uphold the same Pharisaic concepts back in Jesus days.

Which Judaism? There's no one codified 'Judaism' and concepts have always been debated and discussed. A First Temple Jew would be unlikely to recognise a lot within Second Temple Judaism, but they were and are valid forms of Judaism.

You can read from Josephus about these concepts such as Hades, Lake of Fire, immortal soul etc.

Hades is a Greek word and a Greek concept.

The Lake of Fire is a Christian concept.

Orthodox Judaism believes in the immortal soul.

Back then the Pharisees are in control of the religion upheld by most Hebrew speakers centered in Jerusalem.

So?

The Pharisees are very cautious about the Messiah claims as there are several such claims right before Jesus.

And they are right to be.

Moreover, a lot of Jews expect Messiah to be one fighting the Roman empire.

Because the texts say the Messiah will establish a Kingdom and be a King and bring peace to Israel. There's nothing confusing going on here.

Politically both the Roman and Jewish governments have concerns about Messiah claims but behaving as rebels. That's why the Pharisees are very negative about such claims, while they have a dominant influence to the Jews in majority.

What 'Jewish government?' The Pharisees were and are Orthodox Jews with Orthodox ideas about what the Messiah is and does and of course they are going to be negative about false messiah claims, especially being there were and are so many.

That's why Jesus may have to start with Galilee instead of Jerusalem, till His miracle deeds are heard by those in Jerusalem.

Miracles do not the Messiah make.

. By the Bible, the Pharisees question more about Jesus teaching and the "I am" claim instead of a "son of God" or Messiah claim.

We don't know what they were saying because the NT is written to make people believe in Jesus, so it has a heavy bias. I am more than confident, however, that they would have been interested in the Messiah claims if Jesus were that well-known a figure.

It is so because Jesus doesn't involve in any deeds suspicious of rebelling the Roman empire. He's instead a peaceful rabbi.

He proclaimed himself Messiah - a King - and you say he did no deeds that would make the Romans suspicious? They literally put him to death on suspicion of sedition.

 

[Hawkins]

Tanakh

Where is it written? It's up to your interpretation.

 

[Rival]

Where is it written? It's up to your interpretation.

The Tanakh was composed over a long period of time, but all the scrolls that would go into making the book were done by the 4th century b.c.e. so what was interpreted as being Messianic was not new.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

As I stated, trying to intuit the meaning of a name which is the combination of letters (as a sort of portmanteau) if the text does not say the precise meaning is a useless activity. Letters are added to other words/names elsewhere in the text, but where else did someone decide that the English translation "God is ___"?

So you disagree with the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew English Lexicon? Sorry but I have to believe it is just like other Hebrew names and has a meaning. So I guess we have to disagree on this also.

 

[Hawkins]

There have always been Jews practicing Judaism. The Jews are still scattered and guess what? There's still Judaism.

Re-read my post. If the fundamental concepts are different, then they are different whether you choose to call it Judaism is irrelevant.

Which Judaism? There's no one codified 'Judaism' and concepts have always been debated and discussed. A First Temple Jew would be unlikely to recognise a lot within Second Temple Judaism, but they were and are valid forms of Judaism.

The question for you is, is today's Judaism still upholding the Pharisaic concepts strictly.

Hades is a Greek word and a Greek concept.

No. You really need to read Josephus' works. Hades is the Greek equivalent of sheol.

The Lake of Fire is a Christian concept.

No again. Read Josephus. It's a Pharisaic concept, and employed by Jesus (when Christianity not even started).

Orthodox Judaism believes in the immortal soul.

That's only 2mil. over today's 20mil population. Thanks for the clarification.

Because the texts say the Messiah will establish a Kingdom and be a King and bring peace to Israel. There's nothing confusing going on here.

The advocate is the Jews led by the blind Pharisees lost contact with God. Messiah has built up today's Kingdom of God on earth which is made up of all Christians.

What 'Jewish government?' The Pharisees were and are Orthodox Jews with Orthodox ideas about what the Messiah is and does and of course they are going to be negative about false messiah claims, especially being there were and are so many.

Read the Bible or Joesphus.

Miracles do not the Messiah make.

Miracles and prophecies are the way God shows Himself and authenticates His prophets. Messiah is the Prophet.

We don't know what they were saying because the NT is written to make people believe in Jesus, so it has a heavy bias. I am more than confident, however, that they would have been interested in the Messiah claims if Jesus were that well-known a figure.

NT is the testimonies from eyewitnesses accounts of the chosen disciples. Miracles in mass represents a quick on time and important authentication from God.

He proclaimed himself Messiah - a King - and you say he did no needs that would make the Romans suspicious? They literally put him to death on suspicion of sedition.

They put them to death because He's suspicious to claim to be God Himself, while He challenged the Pharisees in general didn't behave as they preach. Jesus has a popularity among people while He despises the Pharisees' behavior. That's why He's killed.

 

[Hawkins]

So you disagree with the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew English Lexicon? Sorry but I have to believe it is just like other Hebrew names and has a meaning. So I guess we have to disagree on this also.

No. Re-read my post. I said It's up to your interpretation. Do you have a reading issue?

 

[Rival]

They put them to death because He's suspicious to claim to be God Himself, while He challenged the Pharisees in general didn't behave as they preach. Jesus has a popularity among people while He despises the Pharisees' behavior. That's why He's killed.

This is your belief. And with Christians or Christian influenced people, it always comes down to 'Jesus good, Jews bad,' for which I have no time.

 

[Hawkins]

The Tanakh was composed over a long period of time, but all the scrolls that would go into making the book were done by the 4th century b.c.e. so what was interpreted as being Messianic was not new.

What exactly Messiah is completely relies on how today's people (or today's Judaism) interpret the parts of the texts possibly (or not) related to the Messiah. Today's Judaism however is unrelated to the one 2000 years ago.

 

[Hawkins]

This is your belief. And with Christians or Christian influenced people, it always comes down to 'Jesus good, Jews bad,' for which I have no time.

You can believe otherwise. Show your support. We get support from the Bible as a historical document.

 

[Rival]

What exactly Messiah is completely relies on how today's people (or today's Judaism) interpret the parts of the texts possibly (or not) related to the Messiah.

Ideas within Jewish thought of what the Messiah is can and do vary. What they have in common, however, is that none of them remotely resemble the Christian one.

 

[Hawkins]

Ideas within Jewish thought of what the Messiah is can and do vary. What they have in common, however, is that none of them remotely resemble the Christian one.

List some. That's an assertion.

The point is, it's not up to you to query. If the Messiah image doesn't fit, people in Jesus days would have already pointed out. So you need support documents from people 2000 years ago who pointed out the Jesus doesn't match the prophecies in the Scripture.

Jesus as testimony is from the Jews, we trust they know better about how Messiah is prophesied than today's humans.

 

[Rival]

List some. That's an assertion.

The point is, it's not up to you to query. If the Messiah image doesn't fit, people in Jesus days would have already pointed out. So you need support documents from people 2000 years ago who pointed out the Jesus doesn't match the prophecies in the Scripture.

I have posted the same list time and again. It's in this very thread.

2 Shmuel 7:10-13

And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.

Yeshayahu 2-4

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.

Yirmiyahu 31:33

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

Yechezkel 37:26-28

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war. The L-rd's House is not established.

Tzefanaiah 3:9-13

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.

This hasn't happened either. None of it.

Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.

Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.

 

[rosends]

So you disagree with the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew English Lexicon? Sorry but I have to believe it is just like other Hebrew names and has a meaning. So I guess we have to disagree on this also.

But names for which the meaning is not textually established DON'T have clear meanings. Take a look at this explanation for the name Yisra'el (Israel)
Hebrew Name for israel-yisrael-yisrael

Note that under meaning, nothing can be given, only roots identified.

 

[dybmh]

@rosends, I want to say thanks for the link to the jewsforjudaism website. That's a great resource.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

No. Re-read my post. I said It's up to your interpretation. Do you have a reading issue?

Are you sure you are attacking the right person? Have we even discussed anything before?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

But names for which the meaning is not textually established DON'T have clear meanings. Take a look at this explanation for the name Yisra'el (Israel)
Hebrew Name for israel-yisrael-yisrael

Note that under meaning, nothing can be given, only roots identified.

If the lexicon won't convince you, I am sure nothing I can say will matter to you.

 

[rosends]

If the lexicon won't convince you, I am sure nothing I can say will matter to you.

And if the text and the Hebrew is not persuasive and you would rather rely on a lexicon writer's guesswork, then nothing I say will matter to you.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

And if the text and the Hebrew is not persuasive and you would rather rely on a lexicon writer's guesswork, then nothing I say will matter to you.

The text and Hebrew is persuasive to me. However other authorities on Hebrew are disagreeing with you. The name is coming from a root word of YHWH, and a root word regarding salvation. Hoshea's name was changed to YHWSH which means YHWH is Salvation. He was a type of our Savior. He lead the people into the promised land. Just like our Messiah will do. He will lead his people into Heaven.

I believe you are so against the possibility of YHWSH being the Messiah, that you will fight against anything that would even remotely indicate that.

 

[dybmh]

The name is coming from a root word of YHWH

There is a lot about this name that you are ( apparently ) not aware of. It's a deeply mystical topic.