What do Jews find strange about Christianity and why.

[TrueBeliever37]

Feel free not to agree -- the numbers and the sources are all laid out quite clearly. You are the one choosing not to believe.

I believe just not the same as you. Please explain how it can start at 586 BCE and end at 70 AD and still come up with 490 years.

 

[rosends]

I believe just not the same as you. Please explain how it can start at 586 BCE and end at 70 AD and still come up with 490 years.

You need to read all the way to the end and study actual Jewish tradition about the dates you take for granted.

 

[Deeje]

'It's not happened yet' is a nonanswer. It's what the Messiah is going to do, that's his purpose. Saying the Messiah has come but 'it hasn't happened yet' is a contradiction.

No, I don't wonder as G-d says in Hoshea 3:4-5,

For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor efod nor terafim. Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the L-rd their G-d and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the L-rd and to His goodness at the end of days.

This is what's happened. They haven't yet returned and these things are still absent. G-d doesn't go on saying that it will invalidate their whole religion, or that He's given up on them, or anything else.


As you've been through this psalm with Tumah (I believe it was you) I'm not going to rehash that here. I'll just say that, again, we differ and those on my side of the debate are expecting a literal kingdom ruled by the king Messiah. These two beliefs are just really incompatible and there's not much more I can say as you can't prove your belief and mine hasn't yet occurred.


I don't believe this one bit. G-d says multiple times that Israel will never cease being a nation before Him. The idea of a spiritual Israel is something unique to Christians. Again, it's also something that cannot be proven, unlike my belief that a literal ingathering will happen.

Zechariah 8:8,
And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people, and I shall be their G-d, in truth and in righteousness.

It makes no mention of a spiritual Israel or another kind of Jew. G-d here is saying what He's always said: they will dwell in their land, they will be His people and He will be their G-d. The message hasn't changed. What does it say about those other people who desire to be close to G-d? In the same chapter,

And many peoples and powerful nations shall come to entreat the L-rd of Hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the L-rd. So said the L-rd of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you."

This follows logically from the part where the Israelites are returned to their land and will worship G-d in truth, those of the nations will see and understand that G-d is with them, the Israelites.


This is said at the end of the Book of Daniel,

And I heard, but I did not understand, and I said, "My lord, what is the end of these?"
And he said, "Go, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.
They will be clarified and whitened, and many will be purified, and the wicked will pervert [them], and all the wicked will not understand, but the wise will understand."

We're not in the time of the end, so who can understand if not even Daniel?


Again, a different kind of Kingdom.


I've given you the verses explaining this so I'm not going over it again.


This is patently not true.


They don't. People are still worshipping sticks and rocks. That's not a pure language as it's profaning G-d.


You know what I'm going to say, don't you?

Its your choice to believe whatever you wish....but if Jesus is about to return and the world conditions at present are proof that we are living in "the time of the end"...where does that leave you? Jesus used the days of Noah to illustrate that those conditions would prevail again.....violence and immorality running rampant....and here we are. The people of Noah's day didn't believe Noah either....what happened to them? (Matthew 24:37-39) There was one 'ark' and everything that was saved had to be on board it, because everything outside of it perished. God has given due warning again, but because the messenger is not believable, the many will lose their lives permanently, according to the scriptures. We choose our path...we choose our destination.

 

[McBell]

Its your choice to believe whatever you wish....but if Jesus is about to return and the world conditions at present are proof that we are living in "the time of the end"...where does that leave you?

I have no idea where it will leave Rival.
But I will be having a blast seeing the looks on the faces of all the Christians who got it wrong.

 

[Deeje]

I have no idea where it will leave Rival.
But I will be having a blast seeing the looks on the faces of all the Christians who got it wrong.

Or not.....

 

[McBell]

Or not.....

You have your belief.
I have mine.

But we do have a shared belief.
We both believe the other to be wrong.

 

[Deeje]

You have your belief.
I have mine.

But we do have a shared belief.
We both believe the other to be wrong.

I have a feeling that we will both find out soon enough....

 

[McBell]

I have a feeling that we will both find out soon enough....

Seeing as there have been those making that very same claim for the last 2000 years....

 

[Deeje]

Seeing as there have been those making that very same claim for the last 2000 years....

God is not constrained by time.....it is not a matter of "if" but "when".....it is due now, in the rulership of the present world powers. Daniel's prophesy goes no further before the establishment of God's Kingdom...which is coming, ready or not. Just like Noah's day.....can't you see it? (Matthew 24:37-39)

 

[Shadow Link]

Jehovah Tsidkenu: The Lord Our Righteousness

The texts speaking of Christ, the son of David, the branch out of the root of Jesse, styles him THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

The thirty-third chapter from the prophet of Jeremiah, and sixteenth verse, "This is the name wherewith she shall be called, the Lord our righteousness."

 

[McBell]

God is not constrained by time.....it is not a matter of "if" but "when".....it is due now, in the rulership of the present world powers. Daniel's prophesy goes no further before the establishment of God's Kingdom...which is coming, ready or not. Just like Noah's day.....can't you see it? (Matthew 24:37-39)

And you present nothing new.
at least you personally haven't claimed a specific date:

1878
1881
1914
1918
1925​

So I guess the question is is your "it is due now" the human "now" or perhaps your Gods "now"?

now
/nou/
adverb
1. at the present time or moment.​

 

[Deeje]

And you present nothing new.
at least you personally haven't claimed a specific date:

No, we’ve tried guessing....so Matthew 23:36 is true....

We have the time period right, but “no one knows the day or hour”.

So I guess the question is is your "it is due now" the human "now" or perhaps your Gods "now"?

now
/nou/
adverb
1. at the present time or moment.​

How about soon....

The disciples of Jesus thought the coming of the Kingdom was imminent 2,000 years ago. (Acts 1:6)

Since God’s counting of a “day” is very different to ours, he never told us when, but kept it just ahead.....that is brilliant because in keeping it ‘just around the corner’, his disciples always had something to look forward to. If he had told them it was still 2,000 years in the future, how demoralising to think that it was so far away. That they would die before they gained relief from the troubles of this life and to enjoy the blessings of the Kingdom.

That was before they were able to understand Daniel’s prophesy, which God kept under wraps till “the time of the end” (Daniel12: 9-10) Only then would they be able to discern the sign of Jesus’ presence as King, and the features of the sign that he gave to identify the last days, (which we have been seeing since 1914).

The world is in a huge mess and we as Christ’s disciples are preparing for what is prophesied to come next....buckle up....

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You need to read all the way to the end and study actual Jewish tradition about the dates you take for granted.

I did try to read thru it. You haven't explained why the math doesn't add up.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

But that means that it doesn't delete the Torah laws or change the laws of Judaism either. So the messianic concept remains the Jewish one. The Torah and its covenant remain.

It lets us know the new covenant will NOT be according to the previous covenant. We will just have to disagree on this.

 

[rosends]

I did try to read thru it. You haven't explained why the math doesn't add up.

Yes, you tried but didn't succeed because the math is explained in the article.

 

[rosends]

It lets us know the new covenant will NOT be according to the previous covenant. We will just have to disagree on this.

But in what way not like (not "according") the earlier one? The text explains the way -- how it will be transmitted. But it makes clear that the content will be identical.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

So what you are saying is G-d wasn't clear enough and a group of illiterate fishermen and an itinerant faith healer know better than years upon years of study? That a ragtag bunch of nomads know the interpretations better than those who spent their lives studying it? Saying 'Not in the way you thought' is a cop-out that Christians have been using for 2,000 years and it's old. The Scriptures state pretty clearly what the Messiah will do and since yours didn't you have to retcon it to mean something else.

The Messiah hasn't come yet.

What I am saying is you seem to have missed him. Because he is supposed to have come based on what Daniel prophesied.

 

[Rival]

What I am saying is you seem to have missed him. Because he is supposed to have come based on what Daniel prophesied.

We've been through this.

 

[Hawkins]

Only the Jews before AD70 actually know about what are rumored about the Messiah. After AD70, there are more than 200 years of an empty period that the Jews are scattered without the religion organized till after AD250 that a group of rabbis coming from no where revive Judaism. Today's Judaism don't uphold the same Pharisaic concepts back in Jesus days. You can read from Josephus about these concepts such as Hades, Lake of Fire, immortal soul etc.

Back then the Pharisees are in control of the religion upheld by most Hebrew speakers centered in Jerusalem. The Pharisees are very cautious about the Messiah claims as there are several such claims right before Jesus. Moreover, a lot of Jews expect Messiah to be one fighting the Roman empire. Politically both the Roman and Jewish governments have concerns about Messiah claims but behaving as rebels. That's why the Pharisees are very negative about such claims, while they have a dominant influence to the Jews in majority.

That's why Jesus may have to start with Galilee instead of Jerusalem, till His miracle deeds are heard by those in Jerusalem. By the Bible, the Pharisees question more about Jesus teaching and the "I am" claim instead of a "son of God" or Messiah claim. It is so because Jesus doesn't involve in any deeds suspicious of rebelling the Roman empire. He's instead a peaceful rabbi.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I'll ignore the strange transliteration choices you make when you choose English letters.
The four letter name of God is yod, hey, vav (or, as you want it, waw), hey. We have no vowels for it, but let that be.

The Hebrew for "salvation" (though that's a strange translation) that you are thinking of is yod, shin, vav, ayin (and you could throw a hey on the end if you want to). There is a practice of mixing God's name with another word to connect that idea to God, but it doesn't work as a syntactic unit that has a clear definition. Often in the text, the name is defined to explain that relationship. But when the relationship is not spelled out, it makes no sense to decide on a meaning independently. We simply know that there is a connection being made.

Joshua's name is yod, hey, vav, shin, ayin. This does, in fact, take a word for "saving" and mix in the hey associated with God. Compare this, though, with Gen 29:35 in which the word aleph,vav, dalet, hey is turned into yod,hey, vav, dalet, hey. It doesn't mean "God is thanks or "God Thanks" but is Leah saying "Thank you, God." So your assumption about the meaning of the letter salad you wrote is baseless.

In Numbers 13, Moses changes Hoshea's name to Yehoshua and this is explained to be an expression of "May God save you" specifically referring to God saving Joshua from the evil counsel of the spies, not anyone else. So in this case, the name was made to refer to the person being named, almost as a talisman or prayer about that person. Changing this to make the name mean anything else is wrong.

Because the final exile has not ended -- there is no third temple. There is no peace. The messianic conditions have not been met so I live in exile. This is a central Jewish understanding. I can get you scads of sources if you would like.

Is this post acknowledging that what I said is correct? That: YHWSH means YHWH is salvation.

If I remember correctly you are a Rabbi aren't you? I admit my knowledge of the Hebrew is inferior to yours. I promise you, if I say anything to you that is in error it would be a mistake. I would never intentionally mislead or hide something or try to trick someone. I hope you are being straight forward with me also. Because I was starting to question myself on this, since I know you know the language better than I do.

Then I realized I could look it up in the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew - English Lexicon. Then I found on page 221 that YHWSH means YHWH is Salvation. (of course it has the Hebrew letters)