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Featured What do Jews find strange about Christianity and why.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Deeje, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    You can use a reference if you want.

    That use of a vague term not defined yet used to bolster a point. Notanumber tried the "culture" card before. He couldn't define it either.

    You defined culture not British culture.

    Yet your point was about religion which is written. Your comparison collapses by your own admission you are unable to define British culture.
     
  2. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    No, religion is not written. Religion is experienced.

    A religious text is written and understood by the people whose culture has that text for the basis of their faith. A Jewish person will understand their text better because they have grown up in the culture that makes that text understandable without needing references. He understands the history behind certain writings, their applicability, their underlying meaning within the Hebrew text. He has grown up in an environment where that text is a living, real thing. He observes the Shabbat, he celebrates the holidays, he reads it in his own language. He knows the significance of names in the text, the laws, the nuances in the poetry. The Christian does not.

    I am arguing that a translation of a text, whether it be Dante's Inferno or the Qur'an, remains a translation, it loses its meaning, it will likely be misunderstood, misapplied and not lived. A translation is inferior to the original and the original can be understood and enjoyed by the target audience because it means something to them, it has an emotional impact based upon their shared cultural experiences, they get it.

    You cannot possibly interpret something better in a translation than someone can in the original.

    This took me forever to type because I thought this is common knowledge. I really cannot explain it any better.
     
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  3. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Its a figurative statement. It shows his spiritual status.
     
  4. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    OK - Here are just a few.

    He set up his kingdom (the church) during the days of the Roman Empire. Just like - Daniel 2:44 said.

    He conquered death and then ascended and took the throne. Fulfilling the promise made to David, that one of his descendants would sit on the throne forever.

    He made a way for me a Gentile to be one of his people also. Isaiah 42:6 and Isaiah 49:6

    He shed his blood so that I could obtain forgiveness of my sins.

    He has shown me thru the scriptures how I can have eternal life.

    He has given me joy, peace, and happiness in this life.

    He brought us the everlasting covenant. Isaiah 61:8

    Read Isaiah 53: It will tell you a lot of things he did. Such as suffering for us.
     
  5. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Religions have texts. Texts can be read and understood. More so what determines if one's experience is genuine thus authentic compared to faking? What makes your experience trump say a converts in which view is correct?

    Like Christianity? You seem to forgot about the OT.


    Like a Christian using not merely the NT but the complete Bible?

    Like a Christian?

    Biblical Hebrew died centuries ago.You are using a recreated language that can not be authenticated properly.

    Assumption

    Considering the modern language used for Biblical Hebrew was reinvented this claim falls flat. You also ignore that a person can know both languages thus can understand your claimed view while still being Christian thus disagreeing with said view.

    Let me know when you find the original as there is no original text in existence for the NT nor OT found as of yet. You have copies of copies of copies going back centuries.

    All I see is your claiming you know better because of experience when denying other's experiences based on nothing but your own experience and projection.
     
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  6. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    I don't doubt what it says at all. I believe it. I just don't believe you have the proper explanation for what it means. To me it is ridiculous to believe that it means all the Jews will just know everything. That their children won't even have to be taught.
     
  7. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    We have very different ideas of what a kingdom is.

    It doesn't mean someone will literally sit on the throne forever. Again, a very different kind of kingdom.

    These verses are talking about Isaiah being a light to the nations, to tell them about G-d. In the Messianic Age, everyone will know G-d is G-d.

    This is not scriptural at all. A man cannot pay for another's sins and certainly not through human sacrifice, which is an abomination.

    I hope you can.

    I'm happy for you.

    In my faithfulness I will reward my people
    and make an everlasting covenant.


    G-d's people are Israel, bless them.


    It is about Israel.
     
    #347 Rival, Mar 9, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
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  8. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    You think that that is ridiculous even though the text says explicitly, "And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, ". OK. I guess we can add another of those things I see as weird - advocating following the text but when it doesn't make sense to someone, deciding it is ridiculous.
     
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  9. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    But walking on water and rising from the dead are totally believable.

    Talk about picking and choosing.
     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes....but the land is not literal Israel which today is just a piece of dirt for people to fight over. The Promised Land was figurative of the whole earth, which if you check out Genesis, it says that humans were to "fill the earth" with their children, not just one physical location. Originally there was no Israel or land for God's children....we were all one race (the human race) and our land was the whole earth. It was the sin of Adam that changed all that.

    The Jewish people were singled out (as descendants of Abraham) because God had to produce his Messiah through them and specifically in the tribe of Judah as part of his credentials. Jesus fulfilled that requirement. What threw the cat among the pigeons was the fact that he did not elevate the self-righteous Pharisees, nor did he condone their interpretation of the scriptures. Rather he exposed them as being hypocrites of the worst order....no wonder they wanted to do away with him. In fact, it was the way they had dealt with most of Israel's prophets sent to correct his wayward people. Instead of humbly obeying God's messengers, they were in the habit of silencing them. This is all laid out in Hebrew scripture as its a 'warts and all' account of Israel's history. Its not pretty.

    God did not choose Israel because they were any better than any other people, (as they so clearly demonstrated time and again) but because he had to produce his Messiah through a human agency and his "friend" Abraham was his choice to accomplish that.


    Actually I believe that your beliefs come from the Jewish version of the Tanakh. A version that Jesus said invalidated the Torah because of the Jewish propensity to follow man-made traditions instead.

    Mark 7:1-9...

    "So these Pharisees and scribes asked him: “Why do your disciples not observe the tradition of the men of former times, but they eat their meal with defiled hands?” 6 He said to them: “Isaiah aptly prophesied about you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 7 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’ 8 You let go of the commandment of God and cling to the tradition of men.
    9 Further, he said to them: “You skillfully disregard the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition."

    It is easy to disregard Jesus words if you don't believe that he was the Messiah.
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    OK, you asked for it....:D


    Jesus has not established his rulership on earth as yet. According to Daniel, it was to be established in "the time of the end" when, during the rulership of the last kings (those ruling in our day) Jesus will come with his angelic forces and cleanse the earth of all who oppose his incoming Kingdom, crushing them out of existence (Daniel 2:44).....those who accept Jesus as Messiah and are "doing the will of God" in this time period will be spared.

    Do you wonder why there is no Temple when Jewish worship was centered around it? Their sacrifices at the Temple were necessary for the forgiveness of their sins. Blood sacrifices, performed by the Jewish priesthood have not been carried out since the Temple's destruction in 70 CE.
    Why did God allow his Temple to be destroyed by the Romans?
    Why did he allow the first Temple to be destroyed?
    Why did they build a second one?
    Why has no third temple been built for 2,000 years?
    Where is the Jewish priesthood?
    Do you know?

    The Messiah was to "rule in the midst of his enemies" (Psalm 110:1-2) so when Christ established his Kingdom in heaven, his earthly enemies still held sway. But the gathering of his chosen ones and their companions who will benefit from their rulership on earth, had work to do in proclaiming his Kingdom all over the earth (Matthew 24:14) Those who respond to this message of salvation will be those left over when the Kingdom rules comes to the earth. Those who have not put their faith in the Messiah will be sorry that they missed him....they were expecting the wrong man.

    This prophesy, like many others has a double fulfillment....firstly with natural Israel and their return to Jerusalem after the exile, and in "the time of the end" it will be fulfilled with 'spiritual' Israel because natural Israel had silenced God's last prophet, just like they had always done. A new spiritual nation emerged to take their place. (Matthew 23:37-39)
    God changed the definition of what it meant to be "Jewish". (John 15:1-6) He grafted in new branches that became part of the original vine. The branches not bearing fruit are cut off.
    ( I realize that no natural Jew will accept that, but it is truth to us.)

    The restoration prophesies of Isaiah did have a first fulfillment, but the second is yet to come....not with Messiah's first appearance but upon his return to establish God's Kingdom on earth.
    According the Daniel's prophesy of the 70 weeks, Messiah was to make an appearance in 29 C.E. and be cut off with nothing for himself. (Daniel 9:26-27) This occurred after the 69 weeks-of-years and in the midst, or “at the half” of the 70th week. Since this last week, the seventieth, is logically the same length as each of the other sixty-nine, then it too was seven years long. Messiah was therefore cut off three and a half years after the fall of 29 C.E., “at the half” of the seven-year-long seventieth week, or in the spring of 33 C.E. “At the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease” officially, for it was then that the Law covenant with its sacrifices was legally canceled “by nailing it to the torture stake” of Jesus Christ. (Daniel 9:27; Colossians 2:14)

     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This is to occur when Messiah's Kingdom rules the earth...at present it only rules his subjects who obey his teachings and worship his Father. Only when the earth is cleansed of the wicked and disobedient ones will God's will "be done on earth as it is in heaven"....When Jesus gave the model prayer, he taught us to pray for what was to come later. How much later, no one knew.

    Indeed...so much more was to take place before this became a reality. The Tabernacle and later the two Temples were an integral part of Israel's worship. It was where the people congregated to worship their God and offer their sacrifices. But twice God allowed his temple to be destroyed because the Jews did not live up to their covenant with him...the truth is they never could obey his laws for any length of time. But God kept his part of the covenant and produced his Messiah right on time. After the gathering of Christ's followers into congregations that were apart from the Jewish synagogues, God gave first option to Israel to become the "Kingdom of priests and a holy nation" that he promised them.....but they rejected his Messiah and lost their place...they lost their temple and they lost their priesthood.....they were no longer able to worship God as they had done for centuries......they were not the Israel of old....present day Israel, even less.
    That priesthood was given to "The Israel of God" made up of both Jewish and Gentile followers of Jesus. Why does Israel assume that God will keep forgiving them indefinitely?

    In a divided world, God's true worshippers are identified by two elements that set them apart....they will not go to war and they have love among themselves. Micah's prophesy was confirmation of Isaiah's (Isaiah 2:2-4) God has established his worship in these last days, and his people refuse to learn war already.

    Oh but it has....The pure language is shared by God's worshippers in all nations regardless of their mother tongue...they all speak the same language of the truth...all calling on Jehovah by name.



    This is heavenly Jerusalem, not literal Jerusalem which has just become a geographical location for the "Abrahamic" religions to fight over. Jesus said that the time was coming when no one would worship in any particular location because God's worship would fill the whole earth.
    God no longer cares about physical Jerusalem....it is a hot bed of political unrest....a place for Israelis, not Israelites.
    Those who worship the "one God" of Israel today, already dwell in security because God is protecting them.

    All of those verses pertain to God's purpose to re-establish what he started in Eden. His first purpose will be fulfilled just as he stated in Isaiah 55:11....
    "so shall be My word that emanates from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, unless it has done what I desire and has made prosperous the one to whom I sent it. יאכֵּ֣ן יִֽהְיֶ֚ה דְבָרִי֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יֵצֵ֣א מִפִּ֔י לֹֽא־יָשׁ֥וּב אֵלַ֖י רֵיקָ֑ם כִּ֚י אִם־עָשָׂה֙ אֶת־אֲשֶׁ֣ר חָפַ֔צְתִּי וְהִצְלִ֖יחַ אֲשֶׁ֥ר שְׁלַחְתִּֽיו:"
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Sadly, that is all I need to know.....but who knows who is reading the responses in this thread and wondering about things?
    I hope they wonder about lots of things on this subject....:)
     
  14. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    'It's not happened yet' is a nonanswer. It's what the Messiah is going to do, that's his purpose. Saying the Messiah has come but 'it hasn't happened yet' is a contradiction.

    No, I don't wonder as G-d says in Hoshea 3:4-5,

    For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor efod nor terafim. Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the L-rd their G-d and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the L-rd and to His goodness at the end of days.

    This is what's happened. They haven't yet returned and these things are still absent. G-d doesn't go on saying that it will invalidate their whole religion, or that He's given up on them, or anything else.


    As you've been through this psalm with Tumah (I believe it was you) I'm not going to rehash that here. I'll just say that, again, we differ and those on my side of the debate are expecting a literal kingdom ruled by the king Messiah. These two beliefs are just really incompatible and there's not much more I can say as you can't prove your belief and mine hasn't yet occurred.

    I don't believe this one bit. G-d says multiple times that Israel will never cease being a nation before Him. The idea of a spiritual Israel is something unique to Christians. Again, it's also something that cannot be proven, unlike my belief that a literal ingathering will happen.

    Zechariah 8:8,
    And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people, and I shall be their G-d, in truth and in righteousness.

    It makes no mention of a spiritual Israel or another kind of Jew. G-d here is saying what He's always said: they will dwell in their land, they will be His people and He will be their G-d. The message hasn't changed. What does it say about those other people who desire to be close to G-d? In the same chapter,

    And many peoples and powerful nations shall come to entreat the L-rd of Hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the L-rd. So said the L-rd of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you."

    This follows logically from the part where the Israelites are returned to their land and will worship G-d in truth, those of the nations will see and understand that G-d is with them, the Israelites.

    This is said at the end of the Book of Daniel,

    And I heard, but I did not understand, and I said, "My lord, what is the end of these?"
    And he said, "Go, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.
    They will be clarified and whitened, and many will be purified, and the wicked will pervert [them], and all the wicked will not understand, but the wise will understand."

    We're not in the time of the end, so who can understand if not even Daniel?


    Again, a different kind of Kingdom.

    I've given you the verses explaining this so I'm not going over it again.

    This is patently not true.

    They don't. People are still worshipping sticks and rocks. That's not a pure language as it's profaning G-d.

    You know what I'm going to say, don't you?
     
    #354 Rival, Mar 10, 2020
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  15. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    It says they will know YHWH - not that they will know everything.

    Why don't you believe the text in Daniel 2:40-44 where God would set up his kingdom during the time of the 4th world kingdom? The Roman Empire has already come and gone.

    Why don't you believe the text in Daniel 9:24-27 which lets us know it is past time for the Messiah to have come?

    I realize Christianity has it wrong about the Trinity. But that doesn't mean the Messiah hasn't come. His true name is YHWSH (not Jesus), which means YHWH is salvation. The same name the successor to Moses had. The one most people call Joshua. As a matter of fact, his true name, gives another clue he was the Messiah. In Zechariah 6:11-13 they were to take crowns and set on the head of Joshua, the high priest. And speak unto him saying - Thus speaketh YHWH of hosts, saying Behold the man whose name is the BRANCH... He had the same name the Branch would have. Giving us a clue to what the name of the BRANCH (the Messiah) would be.
     
    #355 TrueBeliever37, Mar 10, 2020
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  16. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    But that is a reference to everything. If an infant is born knowing God and it doesn't have to be taught, and if the entirety of the Torah (though the Malbim doesn't subscribe to the entirety's being inscribed) is inscribed on the heart, then ALL need not be taught.
    No, the Jewish people are still in exile as an effect of the Roman destruction of the temple, and the temple is still in ruins, so the hold that the Roman empire had still holds.
    You ask why I don't believe. That's a leading question. I don't ACCEPT your personal interpretation of the text of Daniel. Why don't you believe that Daniel was referring to another historical event? Here is one explanation of it
    The L-rd's Anointed - Source Book
    just scroll down about a fifth of the way from the top.
    or why don't you believe Daniel as explained in this site Daniel 9 - A True Biblical Interpretation ?

    No, that doesn't mean it at all. What means the messiah hasn't come is that I am sitting in New Jersey, surrounded by people who don't acknowledge God, I am fearing disease and violence and the temple has not been rebuilt.

    Not sure where you got your Hebrew education, but, no, those letters don't mean that.
    The same name the successor to Moses had. The one most people call Joshua. As a matter of fact, his true name, gives another clue he was the Messiah. In Zechariah 6:11-13 they were to take crowns and set on the head of Joshua, the high priest. And speak unto him saying - Thus speaketh YHWH of hosts, saying Behold the man whose name is the BRANCH... He had the same name the Branch would have. Giving us a clue to what the name of the BRANCH (the Messiah) would be.[/QUOTE]
    Actually, the Hebrew reads "tzemach sh'mo" which translates to "Branch is his name." It says nothing about referring to the high priest as "branch." So assuming that the name Joshua is the same as the messiah's name is not supported by the text. Why don't you believe the text? When you reject the text, you make the messiah cry. Why must you make the messiah cry by not believing?
     
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  17. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the Hebrew reads "tzemach sh'mo" which translates to "Branch is his name." It says nothing about referring to the high priest as "branch." So assuming that the name Joshua is the same as the messiah's name is not supported by the text. Why don't you believe the text? When you reject the text, you make the messiah cry. Why must you make the messiah cry by not believing?[/QUOTE]

    So you are going to sit there and tell me YHWSH doesn't mean YHWH is salvation or YHWH saves? When Hebrew scholars give that as the meaning.

    Please tell me what you say the meaning is.

    How in the world are you in exile, living in New Jersey?
     
  18. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I'll ignore the strange transliteration choices you make when you choose English letters.
    The four letter name of God is yod, hey, vav (or, as you want it, waw), hey. We have no vowels for it, but let that be.

    The Hebrew for "salvation" (though that's a strange translation) that you are thinking of is yod, shin, vav, ayin (and you could throw a hey on the end if you want to). There is a practice of mixing God's name with another word to connect that idea to God, but it doesn't work as a syntactic unit that has a clear definition. Often in the text, the name is defined to explain that relationship. But when the relationship is not spelled out, it makes no sense to decide on a meaning independently. We simply know that there is a connection being made.

    Joshua's name is yod, hey, vav, shin, ayin. This does, in fact, take a word for "saving" and mix in the hey associated with God. Compare this, though, with Gen 29:35 in which the word aleph,vav, dalet, hey is turned into yod,hey, vav, dalet, hey. It doesn't mean "God is thanks or "God Thanks" but is Leah saying "Thank you, God." So your assumption about the meaning of the letter salad you wrote is baseless.

    In Numbers 13, Moses changes Hoshea's name to Yehoshua and this is explained to be an expression of "May God save you" specifically referring to God saving Joshua from the evil counsel of the spies, not anyone else. So in this case, the name was made to refer to the person being named, almost as a talisman or prayer about that person. Changing this to make the name mean anything else is wrong.
    Because the final exile has not ended -- there is no third temple. There is no peace. The messianic conditions have not been met so I live in exile. This is a central Jewish understanding. I can get you scads of sources if you would like.
     
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  19. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    If I understand correctly from the source book link, it says the 490 years started at 586 BCE? And the end of the 490 year prophecy would be when Titus and the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. The problem is that stretch of time is more than 490 years. That is why I can't agree with that one.

    I'm not claiming to understand everything. But I know if it ends with the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus and the Romans at 70AD , then it would have to start around 420 BCE
     
    #359 TrueBeliever37, Mar 10, 2020
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  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Feel free not to agree -- the numbers and the sources are all laid out quite clearly. You are the one choosing not to believe.
     
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