Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
What do Jehovah's Witnesses think of 2 Samuel 11:11?In the king james version?Compared to the Jehovah's Witnesses bible?
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What do Jehovah's Witnesses think of 2 Samuel 11:11?
- Thread starter Frank Goad
- Start date
Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
If you look at Genesis 2:7.It says man has no soul.But in 2 Samuel 11:11 it says man is alive.And so is his soul.How do jws explain this?
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lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Genesis 2:7 says that Adam BECAME a living soul. Not that he has a soul. The same word that is translated "soul" is a;so trans;ated as anima; or beast or creature. Genesis is simply saying that Adam became alive. There is nothing about some ghostly soul being given to him. Maybe a little more Christianity and a little less Occultism would help explain things.
Jewish Scripture? Go to the source.....
2 Samuel 11:11...Jewish Tanakh...
"And Uriah said to David: "The ark and Israel and Judah dwell in booths, and my lord Joab and the servants of my lord are encamped in the open field; and shall I come to my house to eat and to drink and to live with my wife? By your life and by the life of my soul, if I will do this thing."
Bathsheba's husband was a noble man who was making an oath, swearing on his life that as long as his men were separated from their wives, then so would he be.
David was seeking to explain away Bathsheba's pregnancy when her husband had been away fighting battles all that time. He had broken God's law by taking another man's wife and to cover up the pregnancy he was going to have her husband sleep with her.....he failed, so he had Uriah placed in the front line of battle so that he would be killed......a horrible time in David's life and he paid for it later with one problem after another. But to preserve his covenant with David, God did not take his life, (even though he had committed two capital offenses.)
2 Samuel 11:11...Jewish Tanakh...
"And Uriah said to David: "The ark and Israel and Judah dwell in booths, and my lord Joab and the servants of my lord are encamped in the open field; and shall I come to my house to eat and to drink and to live with my wife? By your life and by the life of my soul, if I will do this thing."
Bathsheba's husband was a noble man who was making an oath, swearing on his life that as long as his men were separated from their wives, then so would he be.
David was seeking to explain away Bathsheba's pregnancy when her husband had been away fighting battles all that time. He had broken God's law by taking another man's wife and to cover up the pregnancy he was going to have her husband sleep with her.....he failed, so he had Uriah placed in the front line of battle so that he would be killed......a horrible time in David's life and he paid for it later with one problem after another. But to preserve his covenant with David, God did not take his life, (even though he had committed two capital offenses.)
Brian2
Veteran Member
I cannot see that Gen 2:7 says that man has no soul.
I also cannot see that 2Sam 11:11 says man is alive and so is his soul.
The study of the word "soul" is not simple however. My understanding is that it means the whole person and so when alive, the whole person is body and spirit and when dead the body is a dead soul and the spirit is then called the soul of the person. (or something like that)
The JWs belief is that a person is a body with an animating life force which is no more than that, a life force. So a person has no spirit in them which is life force and is conscious etc.
Brian2
Veteran Member
It does not look like a correction to me. It is a comment in the form of a question.
74x12
Well-Known Member
YLT doesn't say "my soul" it says "thy soul" and it's probably the most literal translation out there.
2 Samuel 11:11 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
11 And Uriah saith unto David, `The ark, and Israel, and Judah, are abiding in booths, and my lord Joab, and the servants of my lord, on the face of the field are encamping; and I -- I go in unto my house to eat and to drink, and to lie with my wife! -- thy life, and the life of thy soul -- if I do this thing.'
Are you going to tell Jews how to translate their own scripture?
A "soul" in the Bible is a living, breathing creature...animal, marine creature, or human. A soul has blood in its veins and air in its lungs. It never refers to a disembodied spirit. It does not survive the death of the body because the soul is the living body of a sentient creature with all that makes it who and what it is.
If "old King Cole was a merry old soul" what is this saying? It isn't talking about some shadowy thing that lives inside him...it is speaking about the man himself.
The Bible's formula for life is simple....
A body + spirit (breath of life) = a soul. This is what Genesis says. (Genesis 2:7)
There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the Bible.
Perhaps you should go back and reread the post then.
"I think the correct question would be..." didn't raise any flags for you?
Brian2
Veteran Member
I just read it as a comment about the JW organisation from an ex JW.
I see your point that a discussion area may have been the wrong place to do that, but I must admit that many a time I just answer as I see fit and do not realise if I am in a discussion or debate area etc.
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74x12
Well-Known Member
It's disingenuous of you; since you also don't always accept their translation. Apparently only when it suits you. Regardless of that, let's not pretend that only Jews know Hebrew well enough to make a proper translation. Understanding Hebrew has nothing to do with one's religion. It's just a matter of skill.
What is disingenuous about the meaning of a Hebrew word? We are speaking about "soul" which is clearly presented here as someone taking an oath on their life that they will not do what a king commanded them to do.
Understanding the Hebrew word "soul" is not difficult, especially when, in the Hebrew scriptures these "souls" are both human and animal. Does an animal have a soul that survives the death of its body? Where in the scriptures will I find that notion?
I know that some ingrained beliefs are hard to shed, but immortality of the soul is not taught in any scripture. Please find me one single passage that has those two words side by side....?
Why would Solomon lament the fact that animals and humans die the same death?
Ecclesiastes 3:18-20....
"I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust."
No immortal souls here....all return to the dust of the earth from which they were created.
Brian2
Veteran Member
1Kings 17:21 Then he stretched himself out over the child three times and cried out to the LORD, “O LORD my God, please let this boy’s soul return to him!” 22 And the LORD listened to the voice of Elijah, and the child’s soul returned to him, and he lived.23 Then Elijah took the child, brought him down from the upper room into the house, and gave him to his mother. “Look, your son is alive,” Elijah declared.…
It is clear from scripture that "soul" means more than what it does in Gen 2:27. The Watchtower agrees with that but has decided to accept only some of the meanings that the word means and reject those that do not agree with it's doctrines.
Because that is what he saw with his eyes.
Do you agree with Solomon in this passage that man has no superiority over animals?
Maybe you are taking Solomon's words (or some of them at least) as fact and forgetting the ones you disagree with.
Ecclesiastes it seems has to be read with a bit of understanding of what Solomon was doing in it and the various arguments he is making in it. It is not all factual.
Yes animals and man return to the dust from which they were created but that is not the be all and end all of what happens to them at death. I have already spoken of Matt 10:28 many times. Matt 10:28 does not speak of an immortal soul but does say that we have a soul which survives the death of the body.
Eccles 3:20 All go to one place; all come from dust, and all return to dust. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and the spirit of the animal descends into the earth?22 I have seen that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will come after him?
Eccles is speaking in places of what Solomon could see with his own eyes, not what actually happens at death, but of course sometimes in his arguments he does tell us the truth from God and from what he sees with his wisdom.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I was thinking of a builder.... He dug down deep till he hit rock. Then he laid a foundation on that rock. Then he started to construct his house on the solid foundation.
As he was building, one of his blocks or timber just didn't fit right.
What did he do?
He pulled down the structure, and dug up the foundation.
No. He knew the foundation was solid, so he realized that he needed to just make an adjustment to the structure.
If we have a solid foundation, we will complete our structure by making adjustments as we build.
What's the point.
Start with a foundation.
The foundation of truth is fixed. They don't change based on the materials we use to build.
So I believe the best way to go about understanding the soul, is to first find out, what is the soul.
Once you have established that, then going forward should create no problems.
I don't find scriptures create a problem, once we understand that soul is used to mean person or life, interchangeably.
So when we read 2 Samuel 11:11, we understand it simply as, David saying, as "your person is alive", or "as you are alive"... which is the same as was stated as Genesis 2:7, Adam was a "living soul", or "living person".
The foundation remains solid. It does not change.
However, if we have no foundation, our structure collapses every time its props meet resistance, or something lashes against it.
Click image to enlarge...
Strong's Concordance
chay: age
Original Word: חַי
Part of Speech: Adjective; feminine; noun masculine; noun feminine; noun feminine; noun masculine; Adjective; noun feminine
Transliteration: chay
Phonetic Spelling: (khah'-ee)
Definition: alive, living
Strong's Concordance
nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
Original Word: נֶפֶשׁ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: nephesh
Phonetic Spelling: (neh'-fesh)
Definition: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
We must remember this is ancient Hebrew, and the way they form their sentences will not be the same as we do. Also the use of the word is important.
So when nephesh is used, a writer can just say life, or they can say person, or they can say living being... etc. All depending on what context they are using.
At 2 Samuel 11:11 we see "chay" (חַי) is used - in this case, living, or alive, so nephesh we understand is not life, or living being, but person... As your person is alive, or as we English speaking persons will say... As long as you are alive, or living, I will....
Where did Elijah believe that the boy was? If he was with God, (if that is what you believe happened to him) why would ask God to bring him back to life? Wouldn’t his mother be glad that he was there and be confident that she would join him there some day if that was the ultimate goal of this life?
The ancient Jews had no belief in a soul that was separate and distinct from the body. The soul was the whole person. The word was synonymous with life as my brother’s previous post confirms...
Strong's Concordance
nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
Original Word: נֶפֶשׁ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: nephesh
Phonetic Spelling: (neh'-fesh)
Definition: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
What Elijah requested was that God return his life....not that a separate part of the child that had gone to some unknown destination (which is never mentioned in scripture) was retrieved and put back inside his lifeless body.
Well, that is what you want to believe, so be it. We have done extensive studies into all these things, so suit yourself. You have convinced yourself that we have it all wrong and you have it all right, so why even bother to argue?
What facts are we disagreeing with?
Understanding what knowledge Solomon had at that point in time, he saw immediately how futile life was if this world if it simply ended in death. We had no superiority over the animals, so it didn’t make sense. He had no belief in an immortal soul, so can you not see his frustration? How could he make the statement he did in Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10 if he believed in an immortal soul that survived death?
That belief was adopted later, but from pagan concepts, not biblical ones.
That is the way you want to interpret it, but that is not what Jesus said. He said that God “destroys” the soul, so its not immortal. An immortal cannot die. God restoring the soul is restoring a life. God destroying a soul means....being taken out of existence.
OK, now you are talking about the “spirit”, not the “soul”. Again, what did Solomon believe about the “spirit” in living things?
He believed what Moses wrote in Genesis that Adam became a soul with the “breath [spirit] of life”. The spirit is the breath in all living things, when we cease to breathe, we cease to live. Solomon knew that animals were not created to live forever, but humans were. The spirit of life can only be given back by God. So the breath of life goes down into the earth with a dead animal soul because it will not return to life, but in humans, it returns to God because only he can give breath (spirit) back to a soul in the resurrection. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
So are you telling us what Solomon believed and what he didn’t? He believed what was written in his own scripture....the words of the mediator Moses and the prophets. None of them taught that life continues after death. Why would it when God designed humans for everlasting life here on earth? This earth was never meant to be a training ground for heaven.
It amazes me that people hang on so tenaciously to this false belief, because it isn’t taught in the Bible.....not in the Hebrew Scriptures at all...and only with reference to those with “the heavenly calling” in the Greek. (Hebrews 3:1) And even then, it is a transformation from physical life to spirit life for a specific purpose by resurrection, not as a continuation of life.
I suppose people find it comforting to think of lost loved ones as still alive somewhere.....but if they are aware of what is taking place down here on earth with their family members, then how could heaven be a happy place? What a horrible thing to witness illness or accident and suffering of loved ones enduring the trials of this life and not being able to do anything about it? How frustrating!
I personally find it more comforting to think of them as sleeping peacefully, unaware of anything.....awaiting the call from Jesus to come out of their graves and to the arms of their loved ones, once he has established his kingdom. (John 5:28-29)
What you choose to believe is up to you, but there is only one truth....one road to life.
74x12
Well-Known Member
I meant what is disingenuous is that you cite the Jews as being the only credible source for a proper translation but your new world translation is not made by Jews.
As for souls and spirits it's a different word in Hebrew. Humans are understood scripturally as body, soul and spirit. (1 Thessalonians 5:23)
The soul is the person themselves. The spirit is your spirit form and your body is your physical body.
So the soul exists forever either in the physical body or in the spirit form. This is why Jesus says not to fear the one who can only kill your body but not your soul. (Matthew 10:28) Why would he say that if the soul dies with the body? The soul is you, it's your mind. I don't mean your brain but the thoughts or consciousness that exists as you. It continues on after the death of the body and if it's lost it's dead so it is in hades; but if it's saved then God keeps it alive.
If you read on in Ecclesiastes 3:21 we find that the spirit of man goes upwards and the spirit of animals go down when they die. So there is a difference; but the writer's point is that while they're alive on the earth in the flesh they have no difference from animals. Ecclesiastes speaks of the futility and vanity of those living in the flesh. That is those living for this world. The world passes away and they are like the beasts that perish as in Psalm 49:12-20.
In Psalm 49:15 we see that God will redeem the souls of the faithful from the grave/shoel/hades. So that's how your soul doesn't die if you're saved.
The NWT more closely favors the Tanakh in translation than any of Christendom's translations.
I refer to the Tanakh myself often when quoting Hebrew scripture.
1 Thessalonians 5:23...
"May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. And may the spirit and soul and body of you brothers, sound in every respect, be preserved blameless at the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Taken out of context it might be seen to suggest that individuals are made up of body, soul and spirit.....but if we go from verse 12, we can see that Paul is addressing the whole congregation. He is not speaking about individuals here but addressing the body of Christ. So the body is the sum of their numbers....the soul is the spiritual life of the congregation as a whole, and the spirit is the faithful attitude and service of the whole congregation of its members in their given assignment of preaching the good news.
"Now we request you, brothers, to show respect for those who are working hard among you and presiding over you in the Lord and admonishing you; 13 and to give them extraordinary consideration in love because of their work. Be peaceable with one another. 14 On the other hand, we urge you, brothers, to warn the disorderly, speak consolingly to those who are depressed, support the weak, be patient toward all."
Nowhere in scripture are individuals said to be made up of "body soul and spirit"....please provide a reference if you can.
Reference for that last statement please.
Where will I find anywhere that the spirit is a disembodied conscious entity that is separate from the body? In humankind, our consciousness is tied up with our brain. Once brain death occurs, there is no more conscious existence. Jesus likened death to "sleep". (John 11:11-14)
The Bible says that there are two kinds of bodies.....a fleshly body and a spirit body. The resurrection determines which body a person is raised in. God alone determines this. Some will be resurrected to heaven and others will gain an earthly resurrection. (Revelation 21:2-4)
There is no continuation of life once the body dies. You can't resurrect someone who is not dead.
Jesus was saying that man can take you life but only God can restore you spirit or life force in the resurrection. You see, the notion of an immortal soul/spirit makes the Bible's teaching of a resurrection redundant. You can only resurrect someone who has died. If you have an immortal soul, you cannot die.
Souls die. (Ezekiel 18:4)
Reference for that too please. Hades is the common grave, the Greek equivalent of "sheol".
There is no consciousness in death. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10)
The spirit of man and the spirit of animals is the same according to Solomon.
At Ecclesiastes 3:20-21 Solomon was asking a question, not making a statement...
"All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust. 21 Who really knows whether the spirit of humans ascends upward, and whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth?"
Yes, like the beasts.....
He is no better than the beasts that perish.
13 This is the way of the stupid ones
And of those who follow them, who take pleasure in their empty words. (Selah)
14 They are assigned like sheep to the Grave. [sheol]
Death will shepherd them; . . . .
The Grave [sheol] rather than a palace will be their home.
15 But God will redeem me from the power of the Grave,[sheol]
For he will take hold of me. (Selah)
God has redeemed all mankind from sheol by providing Christ as our ransomer......both the "righteous and the unrighteous" will be called from their graves... (John 5:28-29) ...but no one is redeemed from "gehenna".
You never mentioned "gehenna".... this is the place where life in any form, ends. Its "the lake of fire" which is the "second death". Its called the second death because the first death is caused by Adam's disobedience....the second death, from which there is no redemption is caused by our own disobedience....and it is permanent.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I can't even believe you think.
The Jews now and most of the Jews in Jesus day believed in a soul that is the spirit part of the person. The Sadducees did not believe in spirit or resurrection and Jesus put them straight and told them that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were alive. The spirit part was alive and was residing somewhere. Hades. For this reason there could be a resurrection iow the spirit part could come back and reinhabit a body. The Watchtower wants no spirit part but also wants a resurrection, so it has to say that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive in the memory of God. This however means that any resurrection is just making copies of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I have explained why a copy is not the real person. But I guess you think this is reasoning from Satan and don't see the Watchtower explanation as reasoning from Satan.
When a soul/person is alive physically then they are a living soul. When the spirit part of the person leaves the body and the body dies, the body is a dead soul and the spirit part is the totality of the person that is alive. It is called the soul then. It is what survives physical death. (Matt 10:28)
The soul of the boy had gone to sheol/hades and it is this life which Elijah wanted to return to the boy, the life that belonged to and was the boy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,not just a generic life force to animate a dead soul.
The Watchtower makes the body, the soul, because the Watchtower says that the body is the only thing that a person is, a body with a generic life force. This is obvious from what the Watchtower says about what a person is but I think that the Watchtower would actually deny that this is what it does.
I sometimes wonder, but really it is with the hope that you will start believing the Bible and not the interpretations of the Watchtower.
We should be disagreeing with Solomon that man has no superiority over the animals. All he is saying is that from what he can see with his eyes, there is no superiority of man when it comes to death,,,,,,,,,,we all die.
How do you know he had no belief in a spiritual part of man that survived death. (I do not use your terminology of "immortal soul" because maybe he did not believe in an immortal soul, but as I keep saying, that is not what I am arguing. It is the existence of a soul that we are discussing.
Eccles 9:5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
Eccles 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
There is nothing there that says a person goes into non existence. It say they go to the realm of the dead and know nothing of what is happening on earth and have no more earthly reward.
But of course they will one day have a part in what happens under the sun when they are resurrected,,,,,but that is a completely different thing to having a part in the affairs of this life.
Solomon is speaking about all the dead that just go and are never heard from again and have nothing to do with the affairs of this world.
Jesus did actually say that the death of the body did not mean the death of the soul.
I am not arguing that God cannot destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. That God can do that is in the scripture and it is something that God decides to do later, at the final judgement.
Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into Gehenna (Luke 12:5).
Brian2
Veteran Member
Only God can return a person's spirit (not just a generic life force) to a body so that they are resurrected and then it will be decided if the body and soul are cast into Gehenna or not.
By saying that breath (spirit) is given back to a soul shows that you are teaching that the body is the soul.
This is certainly not what Jesus taught. (again Matt 10:28) The resurrection is when the living part of a physically dead person is returned to a body,,,,,,,,,,,,so that the same person is resurrected.
Jesus did not go out of existence for 3 days and then a copy of Him was created. He went to Hades to preach to the spirits/souls of the physically dead there.
1Peter 3:18..............He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, 19 in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Luke 4:18“The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”…
The captives in prison are the souls of the dead in Hades.
Eph 4:7 Now to each one of us grace has been given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 This is why it says: “When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men.” 9 What does “He ascended” mean, except that He also descended to the lower parts of the earth?…
Of course the scriptures before Moses taught that life continues after death. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were alive because God is the God of the living. Samuel came back from his resting in Sheol/Hades to speak to Saul. Resurrection was real for Job and so a spiritual part of man inside the body has to be real for him.
Heb 3:1 speaks of a heavenly calling but it is only because of you belief in the Watchtower teaching of two classes of Christians that you believe this is about the 144,000. We have been through that and I guess I did not convince you that none of the scriptures you use to show 2 classes actually show that. It is all imagined because of your indoctrination. Heb 3:1 does not say some go to heaven and some stay on earth.
If it means what you say then Heb 11:11-16 means that all the OT saints are going to be in the New Jerusalem.
Heb 11:11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I don't think that Christendom teaches that people go to heaven and look down on earth from above. Maybe parts do, I don't know, but it sounds like that is what you are taught about Christendom from the Watchtower.
Dead bodies cannot hear anything and are not the same person without the same spirit/soul going back to the body to animate it so it can hear Jesus and come out of the grave.
The first resurrection involves the dead in Christ coming back with Jesus (that is the souls of the dead) to be resurrected,,,,,,,,,,called from the grave.
1Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
1Cor 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.…
Those in Christ (the anointed class in JW speak) are brought back with Jesus when He returns and they are raised bodily and clothed with their imperishable, and their immortality bodies. Our bodies are redeemed and resurrected just as Jesus body rose immortal and imperishable.
Romans 8:23 Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all.
Notice that in this hope they were saved,,,,,,,,,,,,and notice that there is "one hope" and that hope must be for all Christians.(Eph 4:4-6)
Notice also that the NWT of Romans 8:23 lies by saying that the anointed class (which Romans 8 is talking about in WT teachings) are released from their bodies at the resurrection.
Aside from the blatant lying and altering the Bible to suite WT doctine, how is it possible for the dead in Christ to be brought back with Jesus to be resurrected if the dead in Christ do not exist as spirits/souls to be brought back?