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Featured What do I need to be saved from?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Quintessence, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I don't have a religion. I have a relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don't mind me asking what was your previous experience with what you consider to be Christianity? Were you raised in a certain church? I have not found the Bible to be full of "You shall not, period" as you seem to perceive it does. On the contrary, I see that it often provides detailed reasons for the instructions given along with encouraging wisdom and positive alternatives to negative behavior.

    As far as the fear and guilt you keep harping on, I think you are blowing those way out of proportion. Maybe you had those things laid on you while you were growing up by some legalistic religious system or church, I don't know. In reality, though there is a healthy place for fear and guilt. If someone harms another person it can be beneficial if they start to feel guilty, which can help them to apologize and make things right. I also think fear is can be a very healthy thing if it protects someone from doing something which endangers their life or the life of another. I personally would be very fearful to deliberately walk across the path of a rattlesnake.
     
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  2. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

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  3. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    Imperfection, ignorance and self-reliance.

    We are born essentially ignorant into an environment which is extremely complex.
    We are new, so we have to master living in that environment.
    That includes understanding the laws which cause peace and happiness -being empowered to do them -and also understanding that government and guidance from the source of all knowledge is necessary.
    Man actually needs a government which is perfectly just -and also more powerful than all of humanity and everything else combined (until we learn to rule our own spirit -personal responsibility decreases the need for government -though coordination of all things would still be necessary).

    Otherwise, we would simply continue to subdivide and have conflict.

    "Salvation" is not only becoming righteous and immortal -but includes a government which will expand into the universe and increase eternally.
    For what purpose? Delighting in the creation and in creating -and in love, peace and happiness.
    Ironically, the present undesirable -and temporary -situation was necessary to bring that about.
     
    #103 Etritonakin, Apr 20, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
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  4. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Since obviously that isn't true, I take it more to mean that we are not prevented from experiencing such things, but that we will have (supposedly) a stronger resistance to such things, like a stat boost in an RPG.

    And yet these people always forget that:
    1. Jesus said to let our lights shine. If we had no lights, we could not follow this.
    2. He came to save the sick, not the well. If there ARE no well ...

    Paul is either incompetent or lying. There were plenty of righteous people in the bible (arguably righteous, but still labeled as righteous). Why would Jesus say he's here for the sick, not the well, if the "well" did not exist?

    It's a bar set much lower than we assume most of the time, though.

    So, how about when all those lying humans say we are all doomed and only God is perfect? If all humans are sinful liars, then ...?

    Agreed. It makes no sense. HOWEVER, permit me a thought experiment: God doesn't stop the good things coming to you, but you find out that immoral things had to happen in order for you to get those things (God killed someone and you inherited their stuff or let an evil person lead a country and your stocks go up or something [that last one is bothering me a bit, actually]). Do you love morality enough to gripe to God about how you're getting your blessings? He supposedly has high standards for YOU, but is HE willing to live up to those same standards?

    True salvation is becoming the flame so that there is no distinction. Fire can't burn itself. :)
     
  5. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    This is interesting. First, yes we can be something other than ourselves. This happens all the time as we grow and develop, casting of the negative things which are part of us in favor of a new more healthy self. I'm not the same person I was 20 years ago, in effect. Even though it's "me", entire modes of thoughts and behaviors have been literally transformed.

    As far as dissatisfaction with ourselves, well of course. Why else would we be motivated to change or grow if we were satisfied? It's always a process of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. It's the tension that leads to the emergence of a new thing. It's the nature of ternary systems as opposed to binary systems which seek simple equilibrium. But this dissatisfaction does not have to lead to a pathological self-loathing. That's an unhealthy response towards ourselves because of things which dissatisfy us about ourselves.

    Ok, so now to the whole Christian idea of salvation. I see it as no different than the Buddhist and Hindu seeking of Enlightenment. It's essence, the goal of salvation is Union with God. In Enlightenment, the blinders of illusion, the illusion of the separate self falls away and you find Truth, or "God". It's the same thing in the Christian idea of "reconciliation" with God. In Christianity however, the whole idea is simply wrapped up in their particular mythology of the Fall of man, casting out of the garden, and the result of living in sin. Buddhism speaks of suffering caused by clinging to the world. Christianity teaches to die to the self, and so on and so forth.

    It's simply the language wrapper, the story it dresses up these existential truths about being self-aware humans in this world, longing and reaching to move beyond this 'prison' of impulses and desires which keep us from realizing Ultimate Reality, or God. Listen to how the Apostle Paul puts it, taking into account his notions of some 'law of sin' as his system frames this,

    So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
    Why would anyone seek God or the gods, if they weren't dissatisfied with their current state of being?
     
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  6. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I don't believe it means to be saved from. I think that it means to be saved to.

    I was thinking that the believers in God who I know are more apt to treat me with knowledgable kindness. The atheists in my life are mean. I know they love me, but they regard me without thinking.

    Then, I am thinking that saved means to be delivered to the knowledge that God knows the other people who you must deal with in your life and will help you.

    So, you need to be saved to be able to live according to the fruits of God's Spirit in association with the other people who you meet and who you live with.

    Of course, an unbeliever will sometimes get lucky and a believer will often times fall short.
    Because that is true of the people I meet, I can't know who is who. I know it about the people I live with. It's not easy. But, not easy is good.
     
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  7. Servant_of_the_One1

    Servant_of_the_One1 Well-Known Member

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    The Lord is giving us time.
    But when time runs out, we will wish we had second chance
     
  8. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

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    I hear that a lot - more and more, it seems - from various christians, yet they remain under the umbrella of the religion of Christianity. You may not have a sect, but you certainly have a religion.

    Although again, this issue is with christianity. Not you alone.

    The Ten Commandments and much of Leviticus beg to differ. And while they are Old Testament, christians today still abide by them, uphold them, and impose them.

    I don't. Perhaps its the inability to see the forest for the trees, or viewing christianity from the inside, but one must only look at the notions of wrath and hell, sin and human nature to see these things as omnipresent in christian ideology.

    Yes, there is. But not in a healthy relationship. One should be afraid when they are clearly in danger, not living in fear of unseen and ever-present enemies, and their god himself. One should feel guilty when they have done something wrong, not for simply being.
     
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  9. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    I'm not sure that it didn't exist previously, but regardless of that they sure didn't keep it to themselves.
    Google "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". I believe the author is Jonathan Edwards, an 18th century Protestant preacher. It is very graphic.
    Tom
     
  10. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    Nothing particularly cogent or consistent.
     
  11. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    Because they are kin, perhaps. We also share the environment with them, and perforce interact with them on a recurring basis. And yes, it might benefit us to be in their good graces, but that might just take being respectful good neighbors rather than submissive servants or demanding supplicants.
     
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  12. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I know what religion is. I've have enough previous experience with it.

    I was raised in the Catholic Church= Religion
    After leaving Catholicism I spent some time involved with Buddhism= Religion
    Then Taoism= Religion
    Studied Christian Science material for sometime=Religion
    Spent another couple of years involved in metaphysical/positive affirmation Christianity= Religion
    A few years later I converted to Mormonism= Religion
    Drifted out of Mormonism and almost into another pseudo-Christian cult=Religion

    Then I found freedom, love, peace, and joy in the PERSON Jesus Christ= Relationship

    I think religion is a burden and a bondage or a self-righteous endeavor. It always involves practices, rituals, or requirements of some kind. Sometimes these make people feel weighted down and never good enough or sometimes it makes people feel like they are being so good and spiritual or are spiritually superior or more enlightened than others. I have just watched several of your youtube videos and now I understand just how much Religion consumes you. So it stands to reason that you are unable to comprehend what a Relationship with the living Creator God looks like or that such a thing exists. All the rituals you discuss in your videos make the ten commandments feel so beneficial, practical and light.
    ( BTW, born again Christians are not really under the 10 commandments in the legalistic sense, since they are now under the law of Christ...but that is another whole subject).

    I will agree that "Christianity" can be a Religion like any other religion, but that is the work of humans twisting the truth and message of biblical scriptures about a living relationship with God through Jesus Christ and turning it into religious practice. I also agree that one should feel guilty or fearful of consequences when they have done something wrong.
     
  13. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    Seriously, Christianity is a religion. Get over it.
     
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  14. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Maybe it often has become a religion, but it is not meant to be a religion. When God interacted with the first humans in the garden was it Religion? Or was it Relationship?
     
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  15. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    It was a relationship. The minute it has rules and guidelines, doctrines and core beliefs, it's a religion.
     
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  16. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    We're inside an artificial reality right now, and everything is documented; many of us need saving from ourselves, as we're not going to be allowed to play the game again. :innocent:
     
  17. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Is it not possible that those things which you are calling doctrines, rules, etc. were or are meant to reveal things about God's character or wisdom, but were not meant to be the core or take the place of a relationship with God?
     
  18. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    No. A law is a law. That's kind of like saying:

    Is it not possible that those things which you are calling laws, rules, etc. were or are meant to reveal things about the government's character or wisdom, but were not meant to be the core or take the place of a relationship with the government?


    nope.
     
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  19. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I can understand what you are saying, but the government is not a Personal Being as God. Sure He does have laws, such as, "You shall not murder", but does he want us to observe this out of strictly legal motivation or out of trust in His wisdom and goodness and love for Him and others (His creation)?
     
  20. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    Both reasons. We are to do things because they are good of themselves but it is better to do so because G-d told us to.
     
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