What do Baha'i believe about Jesus.

[Popeyesays]

"All these concludes that Muhammad pbuh is the last Prophet, Messenger, and Apostle of God. In the first place, Prophethood is a delicate matter. According to the Holy Qur'an the idea of Prophethood is such a fundamental article of faith that one who believes in this idea is a believer and he who disbelieves is an infidel. If a man does not put his faith in a prophet, he is an apostate; similarly if he believes in the claim of an imposter to be a prophet, he becomes an infidel. In such a delicate and important matter Omniscient God certainly cannot be expected to have made a slip. If there were to be a Prophet/Messenger after the time of Muhammad (PBUH), God would have made this possibility clear in the Holy Qur'an or He would have commanded His Apostle Muhammad to make a clear declaration of it. The Apostle of God would never have passed away without having forewarned his people that other Apostles would succeed him and that his followers must put their faith in the succeeding Prophet or Messenger."

I notice that this is all Hadith, and I appreciate al-Hadith as good guidance. But it is not the Qur'an and the "best hadith is the Qur'an" right?

I asked if you could equate the two verses from the Qur'an in particular, how does the end of Revelation equate with:
""Say: Truly my Lord hath forbidden filthy actions whether open or
secret, and iniquity, and unjust violence, and to associate with God that for
which He hath sent down no warranty, and to speak of God that ye know not.
Every nation hath its set time. And when their time is come, they shall
not retard it an hour; and they shall not advance it.
O children of Adam! there shall come to Apostles from among yourselves,
rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear
shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief." Al-Araf, Rodwell 31-33"

Is there any hadith based upon these verses?

Regards,
Scott

 

[Judgement Day]

I notice that this is all Hadith, and I appreciate al-Hadith as good guidance. But it is not the Qur'an and the "best hadith is the Qur'an" right?

Hadith is the sayings of Prophet Muhammad which is based from God. So all the sayings of Prophet Muhammad pbuh conforms with Quran.

I asked if you could equate the two verses from the Qur'an in particular, how does the end of Revelation equate with:
""Say: Truly my Lord hath forbidden filthy actions whether open or
secret, and iniquity, and unjust violence, and to associate with God that for
which He hath sent down no warranty, and to speak of God that ye know not.
Every nation hath its set time. And when their time is come, they shall
not retard it an hour; and they shall not advance it.
O children of Adam! there shall come to Apostles from among yourselves,
rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear
shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief." Al-Araf, Rodwell 31-33"

Mehrosh has done this in his post, and I quite agree with him.

A little bit out of topic:

[SIZE=-1]Today I have completed my religion for you and perfected my favor on you and chosen Islam as your religion [/SIZE](Al-Maidah:3)

"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers". (Quran 3:85)

Allah has chosen Islam as a religion. If you dont me asking you, if you have faith in the Quran and believe that Quran is authentic and as the word of God, why Baha'i?

 

[mankind_iz_one]

[SIZE=-1]Today I have completed my religion for you and perfected my favor on you and chosen Islam as your religion [/SIZE](Al-Maidah:3)

"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers". (Quran 3:85)

That was 1400 years ago. Perhaps God has done something new since the Founding of Islam.

if you have faith in the Quran and believe that Quran is authentic and as the word of God, why Baha'i?

Because I have faith in the Baha'i Scriptures, and believe that the Baha'i Scriptures are the Word of God.

If the Baha'i teaching that all God's Manifestations/Apostles are, spiritually, the same Person is true, then if I deny Baha'u'llah I would automatically be denying Muhammad (and Jesus and Moses).

 

[Quiddity]

*MOD POST*
If you wish to debate a particular issue there is several areas in the forum to do this. This is for learning about Bahai Faith only. No debating please.​

 

[alexander garcia]

Hi, thank you interesting

 

[Popeyesays]

I can only say that the verse means to me something different than to you. But I am not going to proclaim infidelity upon anyone.

The Khataam i nabiyyin means to me that Muhammad is the warrantor of the Prophets in His dispensation. He announces Them true. Just like the verses in question.

The "Day of Judgement" means to me something other than you as well.

That God would maintain creation without continuing revelation to men, is not a belief I can accept. If I thought that is what Muhammad meant I would have difficulty accepting Him. As it is by accepting the verses in the sense that they are justified with one another allows me to not only accept Muhammad but accept Baha`u'llah as well.

If I could not accept Muhammad, then I would not be a Baha`i and I would be rejecting Baha`u'llah and I'd still be a Christian.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Day of Judgement to Baha'is is the day of the apparition of the New Messenger, in that all in Creation is renewed.

"O thou who hast set thy face towards the splendours of My Countenance! Vague fancies have encompassed the dwellers of the earth and debarred them from turning towards the Horizon of Certitude, and its brightness, and its manifestations and its lights. Vain imaginings have withheld them from Him Who is the Self-Subsisting. They speak as prompted by their own caprices, and understand not. Among them are those who have said: 'Have the verses been sent down?' Say 'Yea, by Him Who is the Lord of the heavens!' 'Hath the Hour come?' 'Nay, more; it hath passed, by Him Who is the Revealer of clear tokens! Verily, the Inevitable is come, and He, the True One, hath appeared with proof and testimony. The Plain is disclosed, and mankind is sore vexed and fearful. Earthquakes have broken loose, and the tribes have lamented, 118 for fear of God, the Lord of Strength, the All-Compelling.' Say: 'The stunning trumpet-blast hath been loudly raised, and the Day is God's, the One, the Unconstrained.' And they say: 'Hath the Catastrophe come to pass?' Say: 'Yea, by the Lord of Lords!' 'Is the Resurrection come?' 'Nay, more; He Who is the Self-Subsisting hath appeared with the Kingdom of His signs.' 'Seest thou men laid low?' 'Yea, by my Lord, the Most High, the Most Glorious!' 'Have the tree-stumps been uprooted?' 'Yea, more; the mountains have been scattered in dust; by Him the Lord of attributes!' They say: 'Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?' Say: 'The one is reunion with Me; the other thine own self, O thou who dost associate a partner with God and doubtest.' They say: 'We see not the Balance.' Say: 'Surely, by my Lord, the God of Mercy! None can see it except such as are endued with insight.' They say: 'Have the stars fallen?' Say: 'Yea, when He Who is the Self-Subsisting dwelt in the Land of Mystery.[1] Take heed, ye who are endued with discernment!' All the signs appeared when We drew forth the Hand of Power from the bosom of majesty and might. Verily, the Crier hath cried out, when the promised time came, and they that have recognized the splendours of Sinai have swooned away in the wilderness of hesitation, before the awful majesty of thy Lord, the Lord of creation. The trumpet asketh: 'Hath the Bugle been sounded?' Say: 'Yea, by the King of Revelation! when He mounted the throne of His Name, the All-Merciful.' Darkness hath been chased away by the dawning light of the mercy of thy Lord, the Source of all light. The breeze of the All-Merciful hath wafted, and the souls have been quickened in the tombs of their bodies. Thus hath the decree been fulfilled by God, the Mighty, the Beneficent. 119 They who reject the truth have said: 'When were the heavens cleft asunder?' Say: 'While ye lay in the graves of waywardness and error.' Among the faithless is he who rubbeth his eyes, and looketh to the right and to the left. Say: 'Blinded art thou. No refuge hast thou to flee to.' And among them is he who saith: 'Have men been gathered together?' Say: 'Yea, by My Lord! whilst thou didst lie in the cradle of idle fancies.' And among them is he who saith: 'Hath the Book been sent down through the power of the true Faith?' Say: 'The true Faith itself is astounded. Fear ye, O ye men of understanding heart!' And among them is he who saith: 'Have I been assembled with others, blind?' Say: 'Yea, by Him that rideth upon the clouds!' Paradise is decked with mystic roses, and hell hath been made to blaze with the fire of the impious. Say: 'The light hath shone forth from the horizon of Revelation, and the whole earth hath been illumined at the coming of Him Who is the Lord of the Day of the Covenant!' The doubters have perished, whilst he that turned, guided by the light of assurance, unto the Dayspring of Certitude hath prospered. Blessed art thou, who hast fixed thy gaze upon Me, for this Tablet which hath been sent down for thee -- a Tablet which causeth the souls of men to soar."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 118)

Regards,
Scott

 

[mehrosh]

Dear Merhosh,

I am aware that most Muslims will say a rasul cannot be rasul without also being Nabi first. And I also agree, which is why I do not think that Khataam means "the End" in this instance. One also has to explain this verse:
"Say: Truly my Lord hath forbidden filthy actions whether open or
secret, and iniquity, and unjust violence, and to associate with God that for
which He hath sent down no warranty, and to speak of God that ye know not.
Every nation hath its set time. And when their time is come, they shall
not retard it an hour; and they shall not advance it.
O children of Adam! there shall come to Apostles from among yourselves,
rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear
shall be upon them"Say: Truly my Lord hath forbidden filthy actions whether open or
secret, and iniquity, and unjust violence, and to associate with God that for
which He hath sent down no warranty, and to speak of God that ye know not.
Every nation hath its set time. And when their time is come, they shall
not retard it an hour; and they shall not advance it.
O children of Adam! there shall come to Apostles from among yourselves,
rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear
shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief." Al-Araf, Rodwell 31-33, neither shall they be put to grief." Al-Araf, Rodwell 31-33

And, frankly I do not see how to put the meaning of "the End of Revelation" to one verse in the QWur'an when this particular verse says there will other Apostles.

Can you justify the two verses?

Regards,
Scott

Thanks for your reply...And i see that you have not understood my post even a bit...what I was trying to tell you is not that whether Muhammed is Rasool or Nabi....I was agreeing with your point that you had said that he is the last Nabi..not Rasool....so Nabi is a news giver...and in this case news giver from God...so Muhammed is Khattam un Nabiyein...i.e..the seal of the news givers from God......PLEASE NOTE THAT SEAL IS THE LAST THING YOU DO TO A DOCUMENT AND NOTHING AFTER IT...you have made me repeat the whole thing again...well no problem...I agree with the verse you have quoted...the part you say claims that there will be apostles is ...O children of Adam! there shall come to Apostles from among yourselves,rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear shall be upon them....I will repeat it again that this is a message Allah gives in many places in the Quran, He is addressing the Children of Adam, too whom he had already promised the coming of Apostles in the previous scriptures...and telling them that ok now obey my Apostles...the point to be noted here is that Allah is not addressing the people after Muhammed but the whole mankind i.e Children of Adam.....Abu Huraira reported that Muhammed saas said "God send many prophets to the Children of Isreal, when One died another took his place..But I am the last and there will be no Prophet after me".....I think it is much clear to you now....?????

 

[mehrosh]

That was 1400 years ago. Perhaps God has done something new since the Founding of Islam.

The point to be noted is that Quran was not for the time period 1400 years back...But as the Quran testifies that it was send to the whole mankind....and it will be preserved by God himself till the day of Judgment...every Prophet was given Miracles...and the biggest Miracle of Muhammed was the Quran...It fits and will fit each generation with 100% accuracy till the day of Judgment and one of the Proof of this statment is that 80% of the Quran is in the Present slot...that is 1000 scientific facts already discovered more to come...and not even 0.00000000000001% of it is till date proven wrong of it...THERE IS NO SUCH BOOK WHICH EXISTS ON THIS PLANET...AND WILL NEVER.....................................................................I am sorry Brother, but you cannot have faith in anything else if you claim you Believe in the Quran...it seems that you have not read the Quran....Allah says in the Quran....And who doth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie against Allah when he is summoned unto Al ISLAM. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.......and Allah also say that This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor unto you, and have chosen for you as religion AL- ISLAM....THUS THE QURAN IS TELLING US THAT THE ONLY RELIGION ACCEPTABLE BY GOD IS ISLAM..how can you say that you believe in the Quran when you don't obey it's verses.... morever Quran stressing to OBEY ALLAH AND OBEY THE PROPHET....it also stresses to Believe in What was revealed before and what is revealed now (NOTHING IS MENTIONED REGARDING ANY FURTHER REVELATIONS) thus your believe in the Quran is incomplete or I will rather say it is corrupted........And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter.

 

[mehrosh]

If I could not accept Muhammad, then I would not be a Baha`i and I would be rejecting Baha`u'llah and I'd still be a Christian.

Regards,
Scott

Dear Scott..it is very nice to know that you are accepting Muhammed...but I am sorry to say you are not accepting what he said and what was revealed to Him...The moderator wants to ban the debate here...so lets move on to a thread where we can debate how far is Baha'i faith accepting Muhammed....Hope to hear from you...Thanks and regards...

 

[Judgement Day]

The point to be noted is that Quran was not for the time period 1400 years back...But as the Quran testifies that it was send to the whole mankind....and it will be preserved by God himself till the day of Judgment...every Prophet was given Miracles...and the biggest Miracle of Muhammed was the Quran...It fits and will fit each generation with 100% accuracy till the day of Judgment and one of the Proof of this statment is that 80% of the Quran is in the Present slot...that is 1000 scientific facts already discovered more to come...and not even 0.00000000000001% of it is till date proven wrong of it...THERE IS NO SUCH BOOK WHICH EXISTS ON THIS PLANET...AND WILL NEVER.....................................................................I am sorry Brother, but you cannot have faith in anything else if you claim you Believe in the Quran...it seems that you have not read the Quran....Allah says in the Quran....And who doth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie against Allah when he is summoned unto Al ISLAM. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.......and Allah also say that This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor unto you, and have chosen for you as religion AL- ISLAM....THUS THE QURAN IS TELLING US THAT THE ONLY RELIGION ACCEPTABLE BY GOD IS ISLAM..how can you say that you believe in the Quran when you don't obey it's verses.... morever Quran stressing to OBEY ALLAH AND OBEY THE PROPHET....it also stresses to Believe in What was revealed before and what is revealed now (NOTHING IS MENTIONED REGARDING ANY FURTHER REVELATIONS) thus your believe in the Quran is incomplete or I will rather say it is corrupted........And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter.

Excellent post, mehrosh! :clap :clap :clap

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

....there will be nothing more till the day of Jugdment apart from the Quran

And we Baha'is quite agree!

But IOV the Day of Judgement refers to the time when a new Divine Messenger such as Baha'u'llah appears on earth! So this teachings is no problem whatever.

And Scott has already pointed out the prophetic promise in the Qur'an, viz.:

"O children of Adam! there shall come to Apostles from among yourselves,
rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear
shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief." Al-Araf, Rodwell 31-33

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hadith is the sayings of Prophet Muhammad which is based from God. So all the sayings of Prophet Muhammad pbuh conforms with Quran.

Allah has chosen Islam as a religion. If you dont me asking you, if you have faith in the Quran and believe that Quran is authentic and as the word of God, why Baha'i?

Just one small problem: Even the Muslims themselves can't agree on which hadith are and are not legitimate, which is why various Islamic groups have different subgroups of hadith! Which is also why we rely only on those hadith expressly quoted in our own scriptures.

As to your second question "Why Baha'i?" very simple: The Baha'i Faith is the next step in the one ever-evolving Faith of God! And Islam is as good a name for it as any.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

PLEASE NOTE THAT SEAL IS THE LAST THING YOU DO TO A DOCUMENT AND NOTHING AFTER IT.

Greetings.

You seem to be overlooking two things:

1) The word translated as "seal" can also mean "ornament," as in "Ornament of the prophets."

2) And EVERY Divine Messenger can properly be viewed as the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega (remember Christ's asserting this?), the beginning and the end, and the seal!

So this is hardly a clear finish to God's bounty and His sending of Messengers! . . .

Peace,

Bruce

 

[mehrosh]

Greetings!



And we Baha'is quite agree!

But IOV the Day of Judgement refers to the time when a new Divine Messenger such as Baha'u'llah appears on earth! So this teachings is no problem whatever.

And Scott has already pointed out the prophetic promise in the Qur'an, viz.:

"O children of Adam! there shall come to Apostles from among yourselves,
rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear
shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief." Al-Araf, Rodwell 31-33

Peace,

Bruce

Peace to you too...But brother you want me to explain the verses you quoted the third time...Twice I have explained them to Scott....O CHILDREN OF ADAM.......the verses are addressing the sons and daughters of Adam...God Almighty Promised the coming of Apostles in the previous scriptures "We said: Go down, all of you, from hence; but verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance; and whoso followeth My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve." Barakah....and He is repeating it....so that mankind may recognize His Apostles...for details please see my posts to Scott...Regarding the Day of Judgment...we can discuss it later on...

 

[mehrosh]

Just one small problem: Even the Muslims themselves can't agree on which hadith are and are not legitimate, which is why various Islamic groups have different subgroups of hadith! Which is also why we rely only on those hadith expressly quoted in our own scriptures.

As to your second question "Why Baha'i?" very simple: The Baha'i Faith is the next step in the one ever-evolving Faith of God! And Islam is as good a name for it as any.

Peace,

Bruce

Yes I agree with you that various Islamic groups have different groups of hadiths....Muhammed said "there will be 73 sects in my nation..72 in hell one in Paradise" in another narration "the ones from me and my companions will go to Paradise" that means who follow me and my companions...THE QURAN MAKES IT CLEAR...OBEY ALLAH AND OBEY THE PROPHET....I agree with you that many muslims don't agree with ahadiths...In this case we have the Hadith Science...that is the study of the origin of Hadith...and then the grading is done "Weak" and "Sahih"...Bukhari and Muslim are the most authentic sources.....as accepted by the Jama'a of the Muslims...and the advice of te Prophet was to stay with the Jama'a of the Muslims....the Prophet said "Follow my way and the way of my Companions after me" further he said "I am leaving two things between you..if you stick to it you will be rightly guide, the Quran and my sunnah" anyone who leaves his hadiths is going against the Quran.....the second part of your post is that Islam can be a good name for beliefs but Islam requires the Believe in Muhammed the Last messenger...What was REVEALED TO HIM AND WHAT WAS REVEALED BEFORE HIM....Nothing after EXISTS IN THE QURAN OR ISLAM.......And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. The verse is repeated in several Places....Narrated Abu Huraira...that Muhammed saas reported to have said "My similitude in ocmparison with the other Prophets before me is that a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go round about it and wonder at its beauty, but say 'Would that this brick be put in its Place! So I am that brick, and I am the Last of Prophets (Sahih Al Bukhari) If the Bahai believe in the Quran...then they have to believe in Muhammed, but the Bahai faith purely contradicts Muhammed's teaches...For this we can start a new thread and discuss further....Regards and thanks for reading

 

[mehrosh]

Greetings.

You seem to be overlooking two things:

1) The word translated as "seal" can also mean "ornament," as in "Ornament of the prophets."

2) And EVERY Divine Messenger can properly be viewed as the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega (remember Christ's asserting this?), the beginning and the end, and the seal!

So this is hardly a clear finish to God's bounty and His sending of Messengers! . . .

Peace,

Bruce

The first part...Khatam means seal or signature...you need to go into arabic literature for this purpose....This ornament is a new word you have come up with...The second part...yes every Divine messenger can be properly viewed as the first and last at THERE TIME except Muhammed....every messenger was send to a particular nation calling them to the truth...they were given Miracles which lasted only at there time....But Muhammed was not the first messenger...because he was send to the whole of humanity "we have send you not but as a mercy for mankind" we know that to different nations different Messengers were send before him....He left His Miracle to stay till the Day of Judgment which confirmed the Messengers before and him (Muhammed) nothing after him...Islam was not a new religion he bought In fact, Islam is in existence since man first set foot on the earth...and the Quran can to confirm it.....For example when a new law is passed in a country and the King or the Queen confirms it...there is no need to ask any one else and if anyone does this he is fooling himself...Because the law is confirmed by the last possible authority...So when God Almighty confirmed Islam as the only true religion in the Quran there is no need to refer to any other scripture for further reference because such a person will be fooling himself....Thanks for reading and regards...Mehrosh

 

[mehrosh]

Excellent post, mehrosh! :clap :clap :clap

Thanks but All Praises are for ALLAH alone...I am just TRYING to strive in His path....and our Bahai Brothers are really very co operative...Thanks to them also..

 

[Judgement Day]

Thanks but All Praises are for ALLAH alone...I am just TRYING to strive in His path....and our Bahai Brothers are really very co operative...Thanks to them also..

Yes they sure are :hug: !

 

[Judgement Day]

1) The word translated as "seal" can also mean "ornament," as in "Ornament of the prophets."

Greetings to you too,

The Dictionary Meaning of the Word 'Khatam-al-Nabiyyin'


It is evident that the text can bear one meaning and it is that Khatam-al-Nabiyyin stands for the Finality of Prophethood with a clear implication that the prophethood has been culminated and finalized in Muhammad (PBUH). It is not only the context that supports this interpretation but also the lexicography.

According to Arabic lexicon and the linguistic usage Khatam means to affix seal; to close, to come to an end; and to carry something to its ultimate end.

Khatama al-'Amala is equivalent to 'Faragha min al-'Almali' which means 'to get over with the task.' 'Khatama al-Ina' bears the meaning 'The vessel has been closed and sealed so that nothing can go into it, nor can its contents spill out.'

'Khatam-al-kitab' conveys the meaning 'The letter has been enclosed and sealed so that it is finally secured.'

'Khatama-'Ala-al-Qalb' means 'The heart has been sealed so that it cannot perceive anything new nor can it forswear what it has already imbibed.'

'Khitamu-Kulli-Mashrubin' implies 'the final taste that is left in the mouth when the drink is over.'

Katimatu Kulli Shaiinn 'Aqibatuhu wa Akhiratuhu means "The end in the case of everything denotes its doom and ultimate finish." Khatm-ul-Shaii Balagha Akhirahu conveys the sense, "To end a thing means to carry it to its ultimate limit."

The term Khatam-i-Qur'an is used in the similar sense and the closing verses of Qur'anic Surahs are referred to as Khawatim. Khatim-ul-Qaum Akhirhuum means "The last man in the tribe." (Refer to Lisan-ul-'Arab; Qamus and Aqrab-ul- Muwarid).

For this reason all linguists and commentators agree that Khatam-ul-Nabiyyin means 'The Last in the line of Prophets.' The word Khatam in its dictionary meaning and linguistic usage does not refer to the post office stamp which is affixed on the outgoing mail. Its literal meaning is the 'seal' which is but on the envelope to secure its contents.

Peace,
JD