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What do Baha'i believe about Jesus.

Discussion in 'Baha'i Faith DIR' started by Mister Emu, May 20, 2005.

  1. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    When you do a search of "twin manifestation" in Ocean, it does not pull up a lot of hits, none of them are from Baha`u'llah or Abdu'l Baha. It appears a couple times in the notes for the Aqdas, but not in the actual text of Baha`u'llah's writing. Usually the term is applied to descriptions of the Baha`i ring symbology - the "star" for the Manifestation at each end of the second horizontal line. Actually, I have always thought that could stand for the continuum of the Manifestations - first to current as much as for the Bab and Baha`u'llah individually - but that's symbology for you. Of course, the Sears books are not currently on Ocean. I just got a copy of his widow's, Margueritte Sears, memoir about him entitled Bill, which is a touching tribute. I have met Margueritte a few times, Mr. Sears just once.


    Actually no one ever PM'd me about it. I only mentioned it once until somebody asked me for the addresses to the two boards I mentioned, I suppose putting this board's addy and Religion Forums URL up was what offended Brian. That's okay, I truly did find that board hostile. A board that moderates disruption is one thing a board that moderates opinion is quite another. I have had lots of experience with disruptive posters on boards I have moderated in the past, and unmodedrated boards are snake pits.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  2. mankind_iz_one

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    There are certainly better Baha'is here than myself, but since no-one has yet responded:
    I do not feel this applies to Baha'u'llah. First, that it does is a theological interpretation, not a direct quote from Scripture. Jesus never said "Eighteen hundred years from now there will be a false Christ from Persia who calls himself the Glory of God. Do not follow him."

    Secondly, if Baha'u'llah actually is God's newest Representative to humanity, Jesus did not intend by this verse to steer anyone away from belief in Baha'u'llah.

    Baha'u'llah made claims too. They are (I believe) every bit as true as what Jesus had to say.

    Secondly, Baha'u'llah claims to BE Jesus Christ. If that claim is true, there is no conflict between this Bible verse and the Baha'i Sacred Writings. Both come from the One Who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
     
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  3. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Better Baha`is? Did Abdu'l Baha drop by? Your answer is quite good.

    Why did Jesus tell us how to recognize FALSE Prophets if there were no TRUE Prophets coming?

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  4. flyboy_nz

    flyboy_nz New Member

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    Maybe because of Jesus's 2nd coming. I can't remember the exact verse, but Jesus says that he will come again the same way he went up.

    Also, there are errors with William Sears "Theif in the Night" in relation to interpretation and it does lean over towards the bahai faith.

    I recommend you guys check out this website and scroll down to the bahai faith.
    http://www.ankerberg.org/Articles/archives-ap.htm
     
  5. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Thief in the Night is somewhat more exuberant than prudent. There are newer and better works these days, that's not meant to be a detraction to Bill Sears, who was a synamic personality, his background was in sports casting.

    As to "coming like He came before". There are several references to this in Abdu'l Baha`s works:
    "Know that the return of Christ for a second time doth not mean what the people believe, but, rather, signifieth the One promised to come after Him. He shall come with the Kingdom of God and His power which hath surrounded the world. This power (or reign) is in the world of hearts and spirits and not in that of matter (or bodies). For the material world is not comparable to a single wing of a fly, or rather less in the sight of thy Lord, wert thou of those who know! Verily Christ came with His Kingdom from the beginning which hath no beginning and will come with His Kingdom to the eternity of eternities, inasmuch as in this sense Christ is an expression of the divine reality, the simple essence and heavenly entity which hath no beginning or ending. It hath appearance, arising and manifestation and setting in each of the cycles."
    (Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 137)

    "Likewise the address of the angels to the people of Galilee, "That this Christ will return in the same way and that He will descend from heaven," is a spiritual address. For when Christ appeared, He came from heaven, although He was outwardly born from the womb of Mary. For He said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."
    He said: "I came down from heaven and likewise will go to heaven." By "heaven" is not meant this infinite phenomenal space, but "heaven" signifies the word of the divine kingdom which is the supreme station and seat of the Sun of Truth."
    (Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 192)

    "Let us now return to our subject. All the peoples of the world are awaiting two Manifestations, Who must be contemporaneous; all wait for the fulfillment of this promise. In the Bible the Jews have the promise of the Lord of Hosts and the Messiah; in the Gospel the return of Christ and Elijah is promised.
    In the religion of Muhammad there is the promise of the Mihdi and the Messiah, and it is the same with the Zoroastrian and the other religions, but if we relate these matters in detail, it would take too long. The essential fact is that all are promised two Manifestations, Who will come, one following on the other. It has been prophesied that in the time of these two Manifestations the earth will be transformed, the world of existence will be renewed, and beings will be clothed in new garments."
    (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 39)

    Baha`u'llah noted: "Know that the return of Christ for a second time doth not mean what the people believe, but, rather, signifieth the One promised to come after Him. He shall come with the Kingdom of God and His power (or reign) is in the world of hearts and spirits and not in that of matter. For the material world is not comparable to a single fly's wing, rather is less in the sight of thy Lord, wert thou of those who know! Verily Christ came with His Kingdom from the beginning which hath no beginning and will come with His Kingdom to the eternity of eternities, inasmuch as in this sense Christ is an expression of the divine reality, the simple essence and heavenly entity which hath no beginning or ending. It hath appearance, arising and manifestation and setting in each of the cycles."
    (Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 477)

    And of course one must understand that not all the "false prophets" will be religious prophets - prophets of communism, prophets of materialism, prophets of atheism, must be considered as well and the tests of truth that Jesus, Himself, gave us.

    It was not prophecy that brought ME to this faith, but the obvious truth and benefits of its tenets. It was only later as I struggled against what I had already materially accepted that I looked for reasons NOT to believe in prophecy. I had bad luck there too. Because prophecy is not a literal mut a metaphorical study. One must look to inner truth when considering prophecy.

    Anyway - are you looking for material OTHER than Mr. Sears' books? If so, I can direct you to some.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  6. lunamoth

    lunamoth Will to love

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    Ah, Scott, this is it! Ding! Ding! Ding! Curious about this return of Elijah part. Where does it come from? To my knowledge Christians are not awaiting the return of Elijah.

    BTW, hope the Baha'is here do not feel slighted. Ankerberg devoted a lot more airtime to JWs and LDSs than to the Baha'is. <tease>

    lunamoth
     
  7. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Why send people to websites which are anti-Baha`i. I'd offer this quote from 'Ankerberg' and ask you to turn it around, and you will see that it is just as valid when aimed at those who would tell what other faiths mean for their own purposes.

    "The Baha’i faith stands at the pinnacle, perhaps, in claims for religious harmony and tolerance. Yet, as we shall see, these claims are essentially without foundation, since each religion it claims to accept is not permitted to speak for itself but is re-interpreted to conform, more or less, to the teachings of the Baha’i faith."

    In other words he has accused the Baha`i faith of doing JUST WHAT HE IS DOING and claiming it unethical. What is sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.

    If you are going to argue AGAINST the Baha`i Faith, you are welcome to do so, but do it in the debate forums or you will wind up getting your posts deleted.
    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/.

    I note you have used your very first post to discuss Baha`i's. Why? Do we produce fear in you?

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  8. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    The point is that the Pharisees were insisting that if the Messiah (Christ) had trouble come, then Elijah must have retruned before Him. There was some confusion amongst the people around Jesus if John, the Baptist was indeed Elijah returned or not.

    "7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? 7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
    (King James Bible, Luke)
    "9:18 And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am? 9:19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again."
    (King James Bible, Luke)

    "6:14 And king Herod heard of him; (for his name was spread abroad:) and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.
    6:15 Others said, That it is Elias. And others said, That it is a prophet, or as one of the prophets.
    6:16 But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead.
    6:17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife: for he had married her." Gospel of Mark

    "8:27 And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am? 8:28 And they answered, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.
    8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
    8:30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him." Gospel of Mark

    "3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
    3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
    3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
    3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
    (King James Bible, Matthew)

    "11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
    11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
    11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
    11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
    11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
    11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Gospel of Matthew

    I could go on, but the idea was that if Christ was the Messiah the FIRST time, then Elias (Elijah( must have preceded Him. Therefore for Christ to return, Elijah or John the Baptist must have preceded Him.

    The Bab (Elijah, John) followed by Baha`u'llah (Messiah, Christ returned).

    If we are going to debate it, perhaps the debate forum would be a better place?

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  9. lunamoth

    lunamoth Will to love

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    Hi Scott,

    No, I am not trying to debate with you. :( Just trying to clarify this teaching.


    This seems to infer that present day Christians are expecting Elijah again when Christ returns, but I don't understand how this is derived from the Gospels, or from Revelation. I understand how this return of Elijah was interpreted by Jesus in the Gospels regarding John the Baptist.

    Really, not trying to antagonize, and I apologize if me tease above came off poorly. I really was attempting a light joke.

    peace,
    luna
     
  10. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    No problem Luna, I did not think you really were, I just did not want an argument to develop in a discussion board. I was suspicious that a previous poster had used his very first post to put up an anti-Bahai web link and argument.

    No facial expressions and no body languages makes pure text a very hesitant means of communication, I guess.

    The way I see the "Twin Manifestation" is like Abdu'l Baha says:

    "Some Christians claim that the Holy Ghost descended after the resurrection of the Christ and that Christ is alluding to this. But as the Holy Ghost was always with the Christ, is this logical? Again he says, "He will guide you unto truth," he will be better for you than I. He adds, "Until I go, he cannot come." Endeavor to understand the divine words, otherwise difficulties will arise. Had the Jews understood symbology, they would have understood the Christ. The holy books are full of significance and must never be taken literally. Elijah also was expected to come from heaven, and the Christ said, "Elijah is none other than John the Baptist." The reality of John was in the supreme concourse. It is essential to have divine perception in order to see the truth, to hear the call, and obey -- liberating the hearts from all earthly attachment."
    (Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 38)

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  11. flyboy_nz

    flyboy_nz New Member

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    I only put that link up because I thought it had some good arguments against the bahai faith.

     
  12. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Fly boy,

    I just wanted to make it clear that this is not a forum for arguing or debate. It says at the top of this Forum Page:

    Discuss Individual Religions (Sub-Forums)
    Each of the following Categories Have Religions Listed Within Them. These forums are for learning and fellowship and not debating!


    If you want to create a debate, there's a forum for that as well. Since you're new, I thought I'd help you understand how the forums work. Questions and discussion are here, Prosecution and defense are for the debate forums. We all have access to them.
    If you want to carry on pointed discussions, or critical discussions, you reach a point where telling it from debate is more and more difficult.

    Ask any question you might like here, someone will do their best to answer.:D

    Dr. Akenburg is but the tip of the iceberg for anti-Bahai websites. And someone has to fear this faith, or there would not be so many opponents to it. :sarcastic

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  13. BruceDLimber

    BruceDLimber Well-Known Member

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    Greetings, all!

    Here are a few clarifications I hope will help....

    Yes, Baha'is view our Founder, Baha'u'llah, as the spiritual Return of Christ (specifically, the Christ Spirit), not as the physical return of Christ.

    In the Baha'i view:

    - the three woes in Revelation are the three newer Divine Messengers since Christ: Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah (a "woe" is in fact good news).

    - the two witnesses in Revelation is a reference to Muhammad and 'Ali (who was the fourth Imam, not the first).

    - far from being a false Christ, you should note that First John 4:2 explicitly proves that Baha'u'llah is of God!

    - and while I understand Sears did make a few mistakes in Thief in the Night, Baha'is nonetheless value it, and it hasn't been "downplayed."

    Any further questions are most welcome!

    Regards,

    Bruce
     
  14. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Ali was the fourth Caliph, but the FIRST Imam.

    "'Ali, the son-in-law, foster brother and cousin of Muhammad, was the first Imam of Shi'ah Islam. Shi'ah's, do not recognize the first three Caliphs of Islam as legitimate and refer to them as 'usurpers.' They believe that was not until 'Ali was made Caliph that Islam had a legitimate Caliph, or Imam. In addition to 'Ali the 1st Imam, and Muhammad ibn Hasan, the 12th Imam, there are two other Imam's who should be mentioned here. 'Ali had two sons who succeeded him as Imams, Hasan and Husayn. These two grandchildren of Muhammad were the 2nd and 3rd Imams. Both were opposed by the Umayyad clan of the Quraysh tribe."
    http://bahai-library.com/articles/islam.guide.html#3


    Regards,
    Scott
     
  15. BruceDLimber

    BruceDLimber Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, Scott; you're right!

    Bruce
     
  16. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    [SIZE=+2]A Christian Look[/SIZE] [SIZE=+2]at the [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=+2]BAHA'I FAITH [/SIZE]


    "The Baha'i Faith" is a publication authored by Mary Perkins and Philip Hainsworth, and is sent out to those inquiring into the Baha'i Faith. This tract is a Christian reply to the claims contained therein.
    Our concern is that when recruiting persons into the Baha'i Faith, the claim is made that you can keep your Christianity and still be a Baha'i. They claim you can join your Christianity to their noble aims and all work together for world unity and peace. Christians, please consider carefully the following points


    BELIEFS OF THE BAHA'I FAITH ONENESS OF HUMANITY -- HOW?
    Page 39 of "The Baha'i Faith" quotes their prophet Baha'u'llah as saying,
    "We verily, have come to unite and weld together all that dwell on earth." The paragraph goes on to point out that there is "unity in diversity", and "every group of people can find the highest possible expression of their own particular ideals and aspirations." Page 40 goes on to state that "unity will not be imposed from above" ..."but will evolve gradually in human consciousness..."


    THE CHRISTIAN REPLYTO THE ABOVE
    The Bible teaches the establishment of God's Kingdom over the earth by Divine intervention. Entrance into that Kingdom is by receiving Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as personal Savior (John 1:12). With that rebirth, we are transferred from the Kingdom of darkness to God's Kingdom.
    "For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Colossians 1:13,14).
    The Kingdom over the earth will be heralded in by the second coming of Christ in power and glory. Christians should look to Christ, not "human consciousness"!


    MANIFESTATIONS OF GOD
    The Baha'i Faith teaches that there have been nine manifestations of God on the earth, namely Krishna, Abraham, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah. These messengers are referred to as "perfect and stainless souls". (BF p.40 and 41). Baha'is go so far as to say that (God)..."hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of his own self." (BF p.41)
    To the Christian, this is blasphemy. Christ alone is unique and perfect. He is the only sinless one. Christ alone is the mediator between God and man. 1 Timothy 2:5 reads,
    "For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
    There is none greater than Jesus Christ, who is Almighty God (Revelation 1:8). He alone is God incarnate, the only manifestation of the one God.
    Statements of the Baha'is such as "Each time such a manifestation appears on earth, it is as if the spirit of all the former manifestations return with him." (BF p.41) smack of Eastern reincarnation and border on the occult.
    Christians are well warned in 2 Corinthians 11:4,
    "There will be those coming to you preaching ANOTHER JESUS whom we have not preached..."
    Truly, the Baha'i Faith preaches another Jesus, and not the Jesus Christ of the Bible and Christianity. Remember Christians, if you have the right Jesus Christ you are right for all eternity, but if you have the wrong Jesus Christ, you are wrong for all eternity!


    THE BAHA'I VIEW OF THE BIBLE
    The Baha'i Faith considers the scriptures of all the world's religions as sacred. They point out, however, that all religions go through the stages of birth, growth, and decay. Page 42 of "The Baha'i Faith" goes on to say, "When the period of decay is reached, a new seed is planted in the hearts of men by a new messenger and a new growth begins."
    What they are really saying is that the Bible, and Jesus Christ have decayed and we now must turn to their prophet Baha'u'llah and his writings! Christians beware of those who would tamper with the eternal word found in the Bible. Psalms 119:89 says, "Forever, O LORD, Thy word is settled in heaven."


    THE BAHA'I FAITH VIEW OF THE HEREAFTER
    We quote here from "The Baha'i Faith", page 47, "The soul, freed from the body much in the way that a captured bird is freed from a cage, will continue to progress and advance towards God. Our progress in the next world will depend on the efforts we have made here."
    "Heaven" and "Hell" are not places but states of being, Heaven in nearness to God and Hell remoteness from him. These states of being exist in this life as well as the life beyond."
    Here again, the Baha'i Faith parts company drastically with Christianity. The above quotes not only allude to reincarnation and Eastern mysticism, but also of salvation by works, rather than grace.


    THE CHRISTIAN VIEW OF THE HEREAFTER
    Christians do not "progress" towards God, based on their works, but go directly to be with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8 says,
    "...to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
    Christian salvation is by grace and not by works. Ephesians 2:8,9 says,
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
    Christians do good works of course, but these are a result of their salvation, not a condition for it.
    Heaven and Hell are real places to spend eternity in the Bible, not in this life, but at our literal deaths. Jesus Himself said in Matthew 25:46,
    "And these (the wicked) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


    ARE THE BAHA'IS REALLY ACCEPTING OF OTHERS?
    Quoting from a tablet of Abdu'l-Baha we read,
    "And whatsoever people turneth its heart away from this Divine Love--the revelation of the Merciful--shall err grievously, shall fall into despair, and be utterly destroyed. That people shall be denied all refuge, shall become even as the vilest creatures of the earth, victims of degradation and shame." (BF p.38).
    Therefore, we can only conclude that those rejecting the Baha'i Faith are considered vile, degraded, and shameful and worthy of destruction. Indeed, this group is not what it seems. It is not all-loving and all-accepting of other faiths. That is just a ploy to attract the unwary. Once in, the follower is bound by many regulations and rules peculiar to the Baha'is. The follower finds himself in a cult misrepresenting Jesus Christ.


    IN CONCLUSION
    Page 45 of "The Baha'i Faith" contains these words "Baha'u'llah does not wish anyone to accept his revelation blindly. He asks each individual to look into it for himself, to use his own eyes and ears, his own faculty of reasoning and to make up his own mind."
    Having accepted this invitation, I have examined the Baha'i Faith from my Christian perspective and have found it misleading in its presentation. A Christian definitely CANNOT be a Baha'i, and neither can any Baha'i claim to be a Christian. So, make your own choice today, your eternity will depend on it!

    This is just something I read, thot I would share, I hope it contains no offenses but shows differences between our faiths:www.macgregorministries.org/cult_groups/bahai.html
     
  17. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Joe - I think that goes over the line. I'm going to ask it be removed here, but hey - bring it up in the debate section and we can go for it - no hard feelings, but this is not the place for this contentious level of "discussion".

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  18. BruceDLimber

    BruceDLimber Well-Known Member

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    Joe, hi!

    I'm sorry to say that the view of the Baha'i Faith in the pamphlet you posted is half-baked and inaccurate in places. This is clearly shown by its implication that we endorse reincarnation, which is something clearly rejected in the Baha'i scriptures!

    There are other errors, too, but the primary point remains that the Baha'i Faith's teachings are quite consistent with Biblical teachings, little as some Christians like to admit this. Further some of our teachings so roundly condemned in the pamphlet are EXACTLY those held by other major Christian groups!

    So I frankly find it ironic that such a badly-split Christianity is so intent on putting down the beliefs and teachings of others who love the Bible....

    Peace,

    Bruce
     
  19. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    OKay, sorry about that, I thought it showed some differences in Christianity and Bahai, didn't notice how offensive it may have been, that's not my motivation, I just wanted to find something about what we believe vs what you believe, but I know what I believe, and not so much of what you believe as most of what I have heard goes against what I have learned from the scripture. But again, its all good, just trying to share a bit, sorry if you did not like it.
     
  20. mehrosh

    mehrosh Member

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    Hi,Just going through this thread, what I understand is that Bahai religion believe little in christianity a bit in Islam (shiaism) If I am not wrong? I will be thankful if you answer one of my question, it is that does the Bahai's believe in the Quran (complete) to be divine?
     
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