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What do Atheists Study?

Lightkeeper

Well-Known Member
People who are religious are usually introspective. Are atheists introspective? Do they study psychology, etc.? The reason I am asking is religion helps us to connect our inner selves with the outer or Universe. What connections do atheists have or how do they connect?
 

Alaric

Active Member
I can only speak for myself (remember atheism isn't anything like a religion - I'm still not really so keen on the idea of there even being an atheism forum) but I'm certainly very introspective - and I often get the feeling that atheists are a bit more connected to their surroundings than theists, who seem to be doing their utmost to escape the material world, instead of embracing it, warts and all.

The human condition is fascinating through atheist eyes - we're like a lonely group of orphans stranded on a planet all trying to figure out how things really are and what the best way to behave is, with no guidance but ourselves - and I have to say we're doing really well, considering our collective ignorance, insecurity and vulnerability. Someone once said that the human condition is that one day, we woke up with (evolved to) self-awareness, where we no longer had blind instinct to act upon, and ever since we have been struggling to get back to our previous state, through religion, philosophy and science. It's quite true, isn't it - a lion is born with most of the tools it needs, all it's natural drives and emotions are suited to the exact life it leads, so there are no worries. We, on the other hand, are built to handle anything, which means we can handle nothing without difficulty or with absolute confidence. We have to imagine ourselves doing different things and pick one course of action knowing it could well be wrong, we have to try to understand the world around us, we have to understand each other and our place within a society - so much work, so many risks, so much responsibility to ourselves, so much fear and worry, but the rewards are potentially endless! Far better to live in ignorance and insecurity, but with endless opportunity, than to be that confident lion.

Maybe God that people are trying to find is precisely those instincts that gave our rodent-like ancestors supreme confidence in everything they did.
 

Lightkeeper

Well-Known Member
Thank you for the genuine and well thought out reply. You described me and I'm not an atheist. Very interesting.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
I was born into a Catholic family and when I was younger, was very religious. Through my own spiritual journey over the years, however, I do now consider myself to be an atheist, as broad of a term as that is (nod to Alaric).

In my opinion, the most difficult thing for a religious person when looking at an atheist is comprehending their contentment with their solitary selves. When one believes in god, god is always there. You can talk to him at any point during the day, vent to him, or thank him. You can send your hopes to him as prayers, and when bad things happen, lean on him with the comforting thought that it was meant to happen as part of his plan, and will turn out for the better. Once that belief in god is taken away, so is that cushion which once supported you.

As an atheist, you have to learn to grow your own cushion and support yourself. You learn that spirituality and god are not exactly synonymous. I still consider myself to be a very spiritual person.

Some atheists are more 'extreme' than others, I suppose. For instance, I accept psychology, and even plan to study it--I find it very interesting. However, my friend Mr. Spinkles (correct me if I'm wrong), although I'm sure he doesn't completely write it off, shys away from it due to its level of subjectivity. It all depends on what you're comfortable with and how you think about things.

As far as connecting to your inner self and the universe, here's what I have to say about that:
Religion makes you feel connected with the universe, because it tells you that through god, you are. In my opinion, thats pretty much it. 'They' tell you it is so, therefore it is. As an atheist, I don't have the same connection as you do (ie: a relationship with the creator of the universe), but I still have one. My connection lies in understanding how the universe works through science.
And for finding inner peace, this goes along with what I was saying above: You've got to learn to live by yourself, and quit being dependent on the emotional opium that is religion. I can tell you, I have never had such a sense of self as I do now.
 
Wow. I really wish I could add something meaningful to this discussion, but blast it- Ceridwen and Alaric already said it all so eloquently, I feel like they took the words right out of my mouth (then, after they took the words, they corrected all the various spelling and grammatical errors...and cleaned up the language...and made it sound coherent) :killme:

But hey, Ceridwen- I don't have a problem with psychology! In fact, I might consider studying it in college. All I was saying earlier was that Carl Jung was kind of a wierdo who believed in all manner of pseudoscientific phenomena.

Anywho, back to atheism- I have to tell you Lightkeeper, at one time I thought I could NEVER be happy without religion. But I've matured since then, and let me tell you it feels great to free your mind from religion and look at the world objectively. I've always had a very introspective and inquisitive nature, by the by.
 

Lightkeeper

Well-Known Member
Most psychologists and especially Carl Jung believe in God. I have heard it said by psychologists that a belief in God is the tool needed for healing. I think where the differences lie here is that many religious people believe in an outer God. What I am hearing from the Atheists is that they depend on themselves. I believe the Divine is within, so I am relying on my inner resources. This has all made me think that a person who doesn't believe in the God of the Old Testament may have labeled themselves an Atheist or Agnostic, not realizing there is something else. Carl Jung actually straightened out my thinking about religion. So did Joseph Campbell
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Lightkeeper,

I think that psychologists use a belief in god as a heling tool because it allows people to take their mental stresses and place them on 'someone' else, and actually believe they have done so, therefore helping them out immensely.

That aside, like Alaric mentioned, atheism is highly undefined. Personally, the way I see it for myself, is the rejection of religion and a higher being on the basis that those concepts are not logical. It could be said that I believe in my own 'inner power', as you alluded to, but in the full sense of that, it doesn't quite fit me. Basically, I just am, if that makes any sense. I don't believe in the supernatural (mostly...) or any 'divine power' either within or without.
 
Ok, first off, who is Carl Jung, that sounds so familiar???

But as I was going to say, I don't believe in an exterior God as some of those religions as christians do, I believe that the 'divine' is a source of energy, like the sun give or take, and a peice of that source of energy is in all of us and we are responsible for everything that happens or doesn't happen, we make our own heaven or hell, and there is no one to blame but ourselves. I think that believing as such if I go around 'sinning' whether any person witnesses it or not, even how I feel or what I think while I am doing it, if it is for a good reason or I have negative intent, it is all going to determine my quality of life. Because I have seen very religious people act very concerning to me, I feel it is easy to slip on what you think is ethical when it is God's eyes that you are trying to please, because you can be forgiven and forget about it. Or even if you are not that religious, but still fear god but don't want to practice, I'm sure it doesn't bother those people because they don't know if they believe in the afterlife and hey, if it is true it won't happen until you're dead and to everyone, that isn't going to happen for a long time. But I think if you don't believe in an exterior God, or you believe as I do, the only person you have to answer to is yourself. Yeah, you can lie to yourself, but how long will that last before you realize that your life sucks for that very reason. I just find comfort in that, did I mention my life sucks, lol.... J/K
 

Lightkeeper

Well-Known Member
Carl Jung was a famous psychologist who taught us about archetypes and synchronicity (spirit meeting matter). As for logic, there are things in life that just are not logical.
 
Yeah- like religion!

But seriously folks, Carl Jung was a strange person. For example, one time a patient was describing to him a dream she had that took place in Egypt, and while this was happening a beetle flew into the room. Now, these two events have absolutely nothing to do with each other right?

Not according to Jung! He would argue that the beetle that flew into the room symbolizes the scarab, a beetle which, in turn, symbolizes Egypt. So the dream wasn't just a dream- oh no! It was symbolic of the symbolic beetle that was just about to fly into the room.

And how did Jung make these amazing "discoveries" about synchronicity etc? Why, they pretty much discovered themselves...all they needed was someone as smart and perceptive as Carl Jung to spot all the connections between a beetle and a dream someone had.

"In case you couldn't tell, I was being sarcastic!"-Homer Simpson
 

Lightkeeper

Well-Known Member
Mr_Spinkles said:
Yeah- like religion!

But seriously folks, Carl Jung was a strange person. For example, one time a patient was describing to him a dream she had that took place in Egypt, and while this was happening a beetle flew into the room. Now, these two events have absolutely nothing to do with each other right?

Not according to Jung! He would argue that the beetle that flew into the room symbolizes the scarab, a beetle which, in turn, symbolizes Egypt. So the dream wasn't just a dream- oh no! It was symbolic of the symbolic beetle that was just about to fly into the room.

And how did Jung make these amazing "discoveries" about synchronicity etc? Why, they pretty much discovered themselves...all they needed was someone as smart and perceptive as Carl Jung to spot all the connections between a beetle and a dream someone had.

"In case you couldn't tell, I was being sarcastic!"-Homer Simpson

Carl Jung's theory of synchronicity was formed from his observations of hundreds of patients. The basic theory is that what is going on inside of you attracts something to you from the outside. I have experienced this many times and most people have but don't recognize it. It is usually repeated incidences i.e. a word may repeatedly put in front of you (in the newspaper, on the radio, from tv, from friends, etc.) I had an experience with white snow leopards. Everywhere I went I either saw a picture of one, had the word in a crossword puzzle, walked by a stuffed animal in a window, heard about it on tv and radio. This continued on for a few months. I found am old bottle on the beach one day. I dropped and broke it. I kept it and repaired it. That night I opened a new book of poetry and the first poem I read was about a broken bottle. The signs are there, but we usually ignore them.
 
Lightkeeper-

The phenomenon you describe is nothing new or revolutionary- and you are right, it has been well documented. However, I don't think we need to change the name of this phenomenon from "coincidence" to "synchronicity".

Remember, Lighthouse, that if we want to understand the world we must first understand ourselves. We humans have very active imaginations, and we often see things that aren't there, or believe things to be true when there is little or no evidence to back them up. Think of all those witch burnings that took place over the past few hundred years. We take it for granted that old women turning into cats and flying around on broomsticks is pure fantasy- that's not what people believed back then! And we're talking about normal, rational people- people just like you and me. So we have to realize that all of us are capable of seeing imaginative things in the world that simply aren't there. What we need is good, solid evidence that follows the parameters of the scientific method of observing, hypothesizing and testing.

Let's look at synchronicity for a moment. What are the odds of finding a bottle at the beach, breaking it, repairing it, and then opening up a book of poetry that night and the first poem in the book being one of a broken bottle? The chances of all that happening are, admittedly, pretty slim.

However, not all of that had to happen for it to fit into the theory of synchronicity. Synchronicity falls into a category called pseudoscience, which isn't really science at all. It includes theories that are so loosely defined that almost ANY observed phenomena could validate its truth, yet the theory itself is completely untestable (so for example, you think of a number, TELL me the number, and I say "that's the number I was thinking of! I'm psychic!" but of course you can't test this if you always tell me the number beforehand). Theories like this can sometimes be impossible to disprove because they are so loosely defined that they could mean anything, and they never serve any practical purpose other than the metaphysical beleif itself. So for example, even though synchronicity claims to show us connections between things and even "foreshadow" events, the connections could mean so many different things that a business would never employ it as a way of predicting patterns in consumers.

So back to your experience: Would it still have been an example of synchronicity if you hadn't dropped the bottle, but the rest of the event happened? What if you hadn't repaired it? What if the first poem you read wasn't about a bottle- what if it was the second? Or the third? Or what if you read a poem the next day about a bottle? Or a week later? Or what if the poem was just about going to the beach and picking up things that drift in? Even if some or all of these variations of the event had occurred, you might still have considered it an example of synchronicity. However, this shows that there was not one, single chain of unlikely events that had to take place to demonstrate synchronicity- all that had to happen was a few out of about a billion quite possible events, and this scenario is not that unlikely to happen at all!

My point here is that so many different things could happen that might make us think of some kind of "connection" that it really isn't that unlikely for things to have a "synchronicity" to them if you're looking for it all the time. With enough imagination, almost ANY two (or more) completely unrelated events could be argued to have some sort of connection to them.

Think of all the crazy Jewish conspiracy theories, astrology, fortune telling, palm reading, people thinking there are "strategies" to winning the lottery, that the government purposely put cocaine in the cities to harm minorities....the list goes on of bunk. The scariest part of it is... smart people are often MORE likely to believe in crazy things, because smart people are very good at defending ideas even when there is no evidence to back them up, purely to satisfy their confirmation bias.

Anywho, sorry for digressing. And go science!
 
P.S. Sorry for calling you Lighthouse- your correct name is Lightkeeper. :oops:

I can relate- people call me Mr SpRinkles all the time, but my name is supposed to be Mr Spinkles, with no "R". Ah well.
 
P.S.S.- (sorry should have edited my own post more) I didn't mean to imply that YOU believe in synchronicity "purely to satisfy" your "confirmation bias". I don't even know if you believe in synchronicity. However, I WAS implying that I think you are smart... :)
 

Lightkeeper

Well-Known Member
I do believe in synchronicity. The part of the story I left out was that the poem explained what the broken bottle meant and it was an actual situation that was ocurring in my life at the time. I stay open to all possibilities. It wastes time and energy to constantly be trying to prove something wrong.

Also you said it is good to look within. My lifestyle is looking inward. Carl Jung taught us how to do that in a way no one else ever has. When one understands the energies within us and that we have named them and that we project them outward, then we have fully matured.
 
I believe in synchronicity to the point that it is a phenonmenon, I don't see where or if it has a standing as a religious belief, it seems to me the same as believing in fate, either you do or you don't?? I believe that all things are energy and that energy can manifest in different ways, I believe that the mind can produce energy with thoughts and that intent can influnce many things. Like thinking about or dreaming about something can influnce something showing up in your presence. I think it is your mind dropping the hint that all things are possible through thought, and the old saying goes 'putting your mind to something'. But that is just me, I can see how people of science would not think the same way, but it is kindof like having faith, you just have to know it works that way for it to work.....
 

Lightkeeper

Well-Known Member
OctoberTheHottie said:
I believe in synchronicity to the point that it is a phenonmenon, I don't see where or if it has a standing as a religious belief, it seems to me the same as believing in fate, either you do or you don't?? I believe that all things are energy and that energy can manifest in different ways, I believe that the mind can produce energy with thoughts and that intent can influnce many things. Like thinking about or dreaming about something can influnce something showing up in your presence. I think it is your mind dropping the hint that all things are possible through thought, and the old saying goes 'putting your mind to something'. But that is just me, I can see how people of science would not think the same way, but it is kindof like having faith, you just have to know it works that way for it to work.....

I agree. We experience what we believe.
 
Lightkeeper wrote:
I do believe in synchronicity. The part of the story I left out was that the poem explained what the broken bottle meant and it was an actual situation that was ocurring in my life at the time. I stay open to all possibilities.
If you believe that something is true, then you're only being open to the possibility that the belief is correct. To be really open minded to an idea being true or untrue, we can't have "beleifs"- we can only have theories which we admit might not be true. That's what science does.

About faith- I don't think there's anything wrong with having faith if it makes you happy and doesn't cause you to act totally irrationally. If an idea really appeals to you, and you feel more comfortable in life knowing that the idea is true-then just have faith. But if we want to discover what's "really" out there, we can't stay cooped up inside our brains musing about what we believe. We have to look at the outside world for what it is, and not be afraid to say "It looks like I was wrong on this one".

With synchronicity, as with metaphysical beliefs in general, the problem is in assuming that all of the meaning and connections perceived in one's own mind exist outside of that mind as well. After all, it's the reality outside our limited perception that we're after. That's why scientists rely on external, rather than internal evidence. They don't just say "I really like this theory-it makes so much sense to me". Inside some peoples' minds, little gnomes are hiding inside TV sets spying on them. This has nothing to do with the reality outside their minds, but they still believe it anyway, because they treat paranoid emotions inside their minds as a direct reflection of the reailty outside their minds. In the same way, metaphysical beliefs treat feelings of meaning inside the mind as a basis for understanding things on the outside.

So maybe I've misunderstood you this whole time- are you saying that synchronicity exists inside the minds of those who believe it (so it exists for some people, not for others), or that synchronicity exists outside our minds (in nature) as well?
 
You know what, guys, I just realized something- this isn't a debate forum. I apologize for drawing you into a debate, Lightkeeper, when all you wanted to do was learn more about atheism. :oops:
 

Lightkeeper

Well-Known Member
Mr_Spinkles said:
You know what, guys, I just realized something- this isn't a debate forum. I apologize for drawing you into a debate, Lightkeeper, when all you wanted to do was learn more about atheism. :oops:
I just accept and don't overwork the situation.
 
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