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Featured What did "Let there be light!" actually do?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by blü 2, Jul 18, 2017.

  1. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Genesis 1

    1 In the beginning, Yahweh created earth and sky (or, heaven).

    2. The earth was shapeless, empty and dark.
    Water existed.

    3 Yahweh said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
    So what does 'light' mean here? Well, we're told there's mayim ─ 'water', 'urine', but the first seems more likely; and it doesn't say qerach, 'ice', 'frost', 'crystal'. For water not to be ice, there must be ambient energy, so the EM spectrum already exists.

    Thus Yahweh has already created an EM spectrum, but it has at least one gap in it, the place where visible light goes.

    So when Yahweh says 'owr! ─ 'light', 'daylight', 'dawn' but we don't have a sun yet ─ then light at wavelengths 390 to 700 nm or so comes into being.

    How? How does magic work?

    Here, plainly, a command is required. It's very like the old joke, where Yahweh says, Let there be light! and nothing happens till he says, Let there be light ─ please. Who's being commanded? Some angel in charge of the physics? Who has to get out the books, identify the problem, and its cause, and the solution, round up a field team and then actually do whatever's required?

    It must be something like that, no?

    Using this as an example, how do miracles get done? It's all very well to utter magic words, but someone's got to do the sums, the planning, and the legwork.

    Anyone know?
     
  2. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    There wasn't a problem because the physical laws were created parallel to the creation itself.

    Another thread, has spirit first, then matter. No reason for that;
    The creation could have matter first, or same time. Ie, this is a non pre-existing universe, /to creation.
     
  3. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Your translation sucks.
    Your transliteration is not much better.
    No.
     
  4. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    According to the Talmud, based on some inconsistencies with this verse, it doesn't refer to light as we know it. That didn't come until the fourth day.

    Uhh... urine?

    Is energy not needed to maintain molecular structure?

    The light.

    The command causes the light to come into being. G-d says there should be light and that causes light to exist. "'Let there be light' and there was light".

    I don't think that's how ex nihilo works.
     
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  5. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    It does raise some questions, obviously. On the one hand creationists want to have us examine the wonders of the world and infer that there had to have been a creator... as you said, "[someone doing] the sums, the planning, and the legwork." But then, when we get to God, there need be no one more than Himself "doing the legwork."
    • So, we're to witness one thing (our universe), and suppose it to be obvious that it was created.
    • We're then to NOT WITNESS, AND NEVER BE ABLE TO WITNESS another thing (God and his workings), and suppose it to be obvious that it wasn't created.
    I will never understand.
     
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  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    There wasn't a problem because the physical laws were created parallel to the creation itself.

    But that doesn't tell me how saying 'owr! brings the missing part of the spectrum into being.

    What's the process?
     
  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Your translation sucks.

    It's a paraphrase. I don't claim it to be a translation.

    Your transliteration is not much better.

    Odd that you didn't suggest a 'correct' one then.

    (The transliteration's from Strong.)
     
  8. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Tumah

    According to the Talmud, based on some inconsistencies with this verse, it doesn't refer to light as we know it. That didn't come until the fourth day.

    What does 'not light as we know it' mean?

    urine?

    So Strong says.

    Is energy not needed to maintain molecular structure?

    I was talking about ambient energy to stop water freezing, but you raise a fair point.

    The command causes the light to come into being. G-d says there should be light and that causes light to exist.

    That's what the text says, but it doesn't how the relevant light came into existence. That how is the point of my question.

    I don't think that's how ex nihilo works.

    If Yahweh pre-exists creation, and Yahweh's real, then there can't be a relevant nihil, can there?

    But for the moment I'd like to focus on the question of the light.
     
  9. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Vestigial Mote

    when we get to God, there need be no one more than Himself "doing the legwork."

    But what's his technique? If he does it, how does he do it?

    I haven't understood either.
     
  10. The Holy Bottom Burp

    The Holy Bottom Burp Active Member

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    You are asking how magic works? Dontcha know anything Blu 2? It works by magic of course!
     
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  11. leibowde84

    leibowde84 Veteran Member

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    But, how can light exist without a light source like the Sun? It doesn't say that God was the light source, it says he created light as a separate entity from himself. So, if the sun didn't exist, where was the light coming from?

    Also, if the laws of physics don't apply, that destroys the whole biblical story. How did water molecules stay together? How did chemical bonds form? Without a source of heat, there would be no water, so where did the water come from?
     
  12. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member
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    A Christian perspective.

    It is always interesting to me how light is used in fiber optics and how it is exploding in new technology. It is my understanding that all matter has wave lengths as its foundation (both sound and light waves)

    Could it be that it was the instructions for all matter to come into being? And for its purpose?

    How does it work?

    Indeed, as you said, there are components for miracles, a command that is in agreement with Yahweh and faith.
     
  13. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    I imagine any number of "explanations" would be forthcoming from those who believe in God:
    • That His very thought is, literally, reality.
    • That He "just can" when it comes to anything/everything.
    • That He and the universe are uniquely intertwined such that His command is the very change in fabric/substance of the universe.
    As you have pointed out, however, none of the explanations will ever give a step by step, never contain any real meat or true answers to questions posed. Only the assertion that God needn't play by the rules of His own universe, and we can't suppose we are able to contemplate anything about Him. Oh... except everything that believers themselves suppose, of course. From what I gather, it works like this: as long as you believe, you're allowed to attribute any positive characteristic you want to God. Ask even one, single question that paints God in a negative light, however, and you're a pariah.
     
  14. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Ex nihilo doesn't work at all. It posits a cause having an effect on something that doesn't exist yet. Do you see the problem there?
    • "In the beginning there was nothing. God said, ‘Let there be light!' and there was light. There was still nothing, but you could see it a whole lot better." - Ellen DeGeneres
     
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  15. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    No and for a few reasons.
    1. The previous two verses list four things that were created before light and upon which light can [be] effect[ed].
    2. I don't see why photons can't exist independent of an lawn chair to bounce off of.
    3. Ex nihilo is creating something out of nothing. Whether there was anything for the light to effect, doesn't detract from its having been created from no source material.
    4. As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, according to Jewish sources, the light we experience today wasn't the light that was created on the first day of creation.
     
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  16. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    He said let there be light and there was light. Then God divided the darkness and the light. Keep in mind, God was creating Heaven and Earth. Heaven got the light, we got the darkness.

    Matthew 4:16
    the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death, a light has dawned."
     
  17. Socratic Berean

    Socratic Berean Occasional thinker, perpetual seeker

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    Fascinating! Can you elaborate or point me to some references?
     
  18. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    If you look at every other creationary act, whenever it says "let there be", it says "and it was so", except by light. It also always adds in something like "and G-d made" or "and He created", but by light it just goes from "let there be light" to "and there was light". Also, by all the other acts it ends with a general statement about that days creation "and G-d saw that it was good". But on the first day it specifies just the light "and G-d saw that the light was good".

    There's an argument in the Talmud about whether the light that was created on the first day refers to a special type of light that was subsequently hidden from the creation and replaced with the light we have today or if what was created on the first day was the luminaries, but they were only placed in their proper places on the fourth day. And then there's a bunch of sources discussing all that.
     
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  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    You are asking how magic works? Dontcha know anything Blu 2? It works by magic of course!

    Well, in Harry Potter Bk 1, the list of set texts includes Magical Theory, though neither it nor the subject is ever mentioned again.

    But as the title shows, there is a theory behind it, no doubt what Snape used to devise the Sectumsempra spell (Bk 6).

    And someone has to pull the levers when the boss says, "I want light!" Who? What levers?
     
  20. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Could it be that it was the instructions for all matter to come into being? And for its purpose?

    A bit late in the plot ─ we already have earth and water.

    Indeed, as you said, there are components for miracles, a command that is in agreement with Yahweh and faith.

    And the guy that has to do the homework and the legwork.
     
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