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What did Jesus Say? For Discussion not Debate.

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
In a previous, recent thread it was claimed that Jesus' message was to "be nice" and the rest was less significant.

What do you think? What are the important lessons taught by Jesus? Please share your opinion backed up with verses from scripture.

I respectfully request:

  • No preaching
  • No debating
  • Limit responses to Jesus' words as presented in scripture

Thank you,

Why? Are you incapable of reading the scriptures for yourself?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
- He teaches us to call God “Father.”
- He calls His gospel a “gospel of the Kingdom,” and tells many stories to explain what He means by that.
- He teaches us that what a word means, coming from God, can be very different from what it means in any other context.
- He gives us a new commandment which looks like an old one but is actually very much different.
- He teaches us to free ourselves from the tyranny of our desires by surrendering our will to His, equating that with surrendering to the will of God.

In my view, any gospel without God in Jesus at its heart and center, is not the gospel of Jesus.
Thank you for this, Jim. If you have time, is there a verse / verses I can read that speak about the "new version of the old commandment"?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
What did Jesus say?

Only that which he was commanded to say by the Lord, who put HIS words into the mouth of the man Jesus who he chose as the earthly vessel through which he would reveal himself to the world.

it was JHWH, who said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18:18-19; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put 'MY WORDS' in his mouth, and he and he shall speak to them all that I command, and whosoever will not heed 'MY WORDS,' which he shall speak in 'MY NAME' I will punish, etc.

The words that came out of the mouth of Jesus, were the words of JHWH, not the words of the man Jesus,
It's a very good point. Thank you.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Why? Are you incapable of reading the scriptures for yourself?
It was a thread idea that was inspired by another thread.

I can be rigid in my process for learning new material. I'm smart, and a quick study. But I do best only reading 1 book at a time. I don't do well reading many books at once.

So, right now, I'm working through the the books of the Old Testament. I have read about half of them. But not in order. I'm currently working on Jeremiah.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
What is most significant?
What is most memorable?
Are there common themes to the verses in red?

Note: I literally have no idea... Excluding sermon on the mount; I am completely ignorant of this subject matter.

Have you any idea what the sermon on the mount is about, what was Jesus giving?
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I'm working through the the books of the Old Testament. I have read about half of them. But not in order. I'm currently working on Jeremiah.
I love that. I cherish that. That makes my day. My heart is bursting with joy, and I feel like dancing in the streets, “Je n’en reviens pas!” (I’m not coming back from it!) Tell me all about what you’re learning, in this thread or in some other, or in PM. I want to hear all about it.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
It was a thread idea that was inspired by another thread.

I can be rigid in my process for learning new material. I'm smart, and a quick study. But I do best only reading 1 book at a time. I don't do well reading many books at once.

So, right now, I'm working through the the books of the Old Testament. I have read about half of them. But not in order. I'm currently working on Jeremiah.


So since your reading in the book of Jeremiah,
Jeremiah written about the first earth age and why God destroyed the first earth age.

Alot of people like yourself reads the book of Jeremiah and have no idea what their reading about.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Have you any idea what the sermon on the mount is about, what was Jesus giving?
My reading of it was superficial. going from memory...

Blessed are the meek
Don't judge others
Don't be a hypocrite
The Law and Prophets are still valid

*blush* that's all I remember, sorry
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
So since your reading in the book of Jeremiah,
Jeremiah written about the first earth age and why God destroyed the first earth age.

Alot of people like yourself reads the book of Jeremiah and have no idea what their reading about.
I cannot not deny it. And I've been busy on other things too. Scripture is not my central focus right now, my friend.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
When Jesus gave the sermon on the mount what law was that?
Apologies. I am quite certain, what ever answer I give will be incorrect.

I am completely ignorant of what is contained in the New Testament. And I only read the sermon on the mount 1 time.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
One cannot understand Christianity without the foundation of Judaism. The old covenant was based on the Law.. the Torah, and keeping it.

Jesus came to fulfil the law (which no ordinary man could do), and usher in the New Covenant. It was no longer based on Judaic Law, but the indwelling Spirit.. direct knowlege of God.

Jer.31:31The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them, ”
declares the Lord.
33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts
.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest

Heb8:13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Personal, direct knowledge and communion with God Himself, is the New Covenant.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
@dybmh Two more points:
- You might learn more from the Bible, or any other religious scriptures, if you don’t concern yourself at all with how much in any of the stories actually ever happened. Just consider what you can learn from the stories in themselves, no matter if anything in them ever actually happened or not.
- It looks to me like Jesus is not aiming for the people of Israel to stop following the laws of Moses, and He is not aiming for other people to start following them. I think that what He is promoting for the people of Israel is to put the spirit of the laws ahead of the letter, if they have to choose. For all people, as I said, it looks to me like the message is to free ourselves from the tyranny of our passions and impulses, by surrendering our will to His, equating His will with the Will of God.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Most Christians believe that Jesus wants everyone to "believe in Him". But Jesus said no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him. John 6:44 Another example of how people claim to know what Jesus wants but ignore His specfic words on the subject.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
One cannot understand Christianity without the foundation of Judaism. The old covenant was based on the Law.. the Torah, and keeping it.

Jesus came to fulfil the law (which no ordinary man could do), and usher in the New Covenant. It was no longer based on Judaic Law, but the indwelling Spirit.. direct knowlege of God.

Jer.31:31The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them, ”
declares the Lord.
33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts
.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest

Heb8:13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Personal, direct knowledge and communion with God Himself, is the New Covenant.
Is there any reason you cannot have two covenants? Does having a new one necessarily mean the first one has no value? A covenat is like a contract. I can write a contract with one person and latet write another contract with another person. That does not change the first contract. Maybe the old covenant was with the Jewish people and the new covenant with the Gentiles. Both could still be in effect.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
In a previous, recent thread it was claimed that Jesus' message was to "be nice" and the rest was less significant.

What do you think? What are the important lessons taught by Jesus? Please share your opinion backed up with verses from scripture.

I respectfully request:

  • No preaching
  • No debating
  • Limit responses to Jesus' words as presented in scripture

Thank you,

I notice in Psalm 2 it warns kings and rulers not to make Jesus angry

Psalm 2:10-12
Now therefore, oh Kings, be wise;
be warned oh rulers of the earth.
Serve the Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling
Kiss the Son lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Seems Jesus is loving but not only loving. He is more than that.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
Is there any reason you cannot have two covenants? Does having a new one necessarily mean the first one has no value? A covenat is like a contract. I can write a contract with one person and latet write another contract with another person. That does not change the first contract. Maybe the old covenant was with the Jewish people and the new covenant with the Gentiles. Both could still be in effect.
According to Hebrews, no.

Heb8:13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear

Heb 9:15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Why would we want to keep the terms of an old covenant that is no longer in effect? There is no longer any force or substance behind the old one, as the new has superceded it.

It would be like expecting the terms of an old sports contract to still be effectual, when a new contract has invalidated the old.

The old covenant was a 'tutor', to make us see how unable we are to keep the earlier covenant.

Gal3:23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Paul argues it was faith all along.. and that was what justified Abraham. The Law was given to hold us, until the clarifying redemption of faith, and its rightful Target.

Gal3:22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Excluding sermon on the mount
Someone once pointed out something that opened my young ears a little, and it was something which should have been obvious to my thick little head. All of the people in that sermon (Matthew 5) are the same people The people who mourn are the people who hunger and thirst for righteousness.

Something else I learned much later was that Jesus was speaking to his own people, not gentiles. His phrases 'Salt of the Earth' 'Light of the world' are messages that they should integrate in instead of cordoning themselves off. That is one of his major themes, but it is not the whole picture. He took a side in one of the philosophical Jewish questions of how much should they integrate, and how close should they get to gentiles. You can see in the 3+ major Jewish groups of modern times (Reformed, Conservative, Orthodox, Other) this is a very important question for Jews.

His sermon (on the mount) does have some relevance to gentiles (non-Jews), but its not being spoken directly to us. We can apply it in principle. In the next section I will tie this in to Jesus' overall message.

What do you think? What are the important lessons taught by Jesus? Please share your opinion backed up with verses from scripture.
As I mentioned he is all about mixing with people who don't live by the same standards. Many of the parables and stories about him emphasize this. He touches lepers, but instead of becoming himself ceremonially unclean they are instead healed. He talks about how people are a mixture of wheat and deadly (but identally looking) tares. He says you can't pull out the tares without damaging the wheat. He says people who think they are good or bad are wrong about ourselves, and what appears to be one thing can be another. The gospels go on and on about this. Show me any parable or story about Jesus, and I can probably show you how it is just one more example.

That being said the parables are not repetitive but do have that major theme. Have you heard the famous miracle story of water turned into wine? It happens at a Jewish wedding, and Jesus takes basic water to make wine. The host is impressed with the taste of the wine and observes "Wow, you saved the best wine for last!" By this the story alludes to one of Jesus common phrases "The first shall be last and the last shall be first," which is of course part of the theme of all of his parables.

Have you heard of the parable of the talents? Its my favorite. Have you heard of the parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins? They all looked exactly the same, but when the time for the wedding came the bridegroom found out differently.

This theme begins not with Jesus but with his mentor, John the Baptist who preaches a message to the effect that all of the high places would be brought down and the low places brought up, and the source given by Matthew is Isaiah 40 (though he doesn't provide the chapter for you like I have done). Its pretty much a repetitive and ever present theme throughout the gospel of Matthew.
 
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