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Featured What Did Jesus Mean?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Not according to the Bible. Free will is the God-given gift to make choices...hundreds of them every day, to bring variety into life, making it a completely different life to the one that animals experience. Think of all the ways that our life differs from theirs, just by the ability to choose...to plan and to follow a dream. 'Who we are' is largely a matter of genetics and environment. This is usually what governs our choices.

    Only humans have the ability to misuse their free will with extremely disastrous results, usually for other humans. This is why God put "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in the garden. What that tree represented was God's right to decide what was good and what was evil. But humans abused their free will, and against God's express command, took it for themselves, and the rest, as they say......is history. We have had all this time to learn how to use our free will wisely.....but do we? We were never meant to cause others to submit to our will, or to have our will impact negatively on others. Just about every human suffering is caused by the abuse of free will. Yet most of us never get it.

    Those who use this life to learn that very valuable lesson will get to enjoy the paradise to come. They will have submitted their will to God and therefore there will be no rebels and no dissenters to spoil things for everyone else.
     
  2. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Our wills are meant to be in harmony to what is good. To have pure intentions. Charity would be the greatest virtue. A heart that gives deserve out of compassion. No freer will but to those whom choose good and delight in well doing.

    Im not into moral relativity, or moral subjectivity myself. There is good and its antithesis. That much i am sure of.
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes.....imagine a world where all humans have good intentions and the freedom to enjoy all of creation without fear.....to experience true peace and security.

    Indeed...it even gives us more back. (2 Corinthians 9:7; Acts 20:35) :)

    I believe that the motivation is more important to God than the action. He reads the heart.

    I guess opposites help us to understand the world we live in a little better....but I don't think God ever wanted us to experience evil to this extent.....but he has allowed us to see first hand, the full consequences of our choices, both individually and collectively. God did not bring us here....we did. :(
     
  4. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    There are alot of others besides me. Who have by the leading of Christ Jesus come to the understanding and knowledge of the book of Revelation.
    That Christ Jesus Alone Uncovered, Revealed in Revelation about many things that are yet to be fulfilled.

    Did you know in the book of Revelation, Christ Jesus Uncovered and Revealed the hour of his second coming.
    How many times, have you read the book of Revelation and not realizing, That Christ Jesus gave the hour of his second coming.
    Now notice I didn't say the ( day) I said the
    ( Hour) of his second coming.
    Many people will say, No one knows the day or hour of his second coming.
    That's right no one knows the day,
    Christ Jesus does give the (Hour) of his second coming in Revelation,.What is happening in that Hour.
    So God's elect will know ahead of time,
    That When that hour comes, God's elect will know in 3/12 days Christ Jesus returns and brings the end to the Tribulation.

    So where in Revelation did Christ Jesus foretold about the ( Hour) of his second coming.

    If I may ask, which Jews went about to have Christ Jesus crucified, seeing there are the true Jews of Israel and the false Jew's of Israel.
    Have you not read what Paul had written in Romans 9:6--"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

    Therefore there are two Jews of Israel in the world,
    The True Jew's of Israel and the false Jew's of Israel.
    Now Who's, who ?
    What does Christ Jesus say in the four gospel's how to know the difference between the true Jew's of Israel and the false Jew's of Israel. And in Revelation Christ foretold about the false Jew's of Israel.

    In your speaking about the Cherubim in Ezekiel, At the time of Ezekiel the Cherubim's were still there standing at the Throne of God, But now in the book of Revelation, Christ Jesus has Uncovered to Reveal in Revelation that the Cherubim's have been replace with those four zoons which say night and day,Holy, holy, holy.

    What happened to the Cherubim's that Christ Jesus is Uncovering and Revealing in Revelation that the Cherubim's have been replace with the four zoons that are now standing at the Throne of God.
    If notice in Ezekiel 28:13-14, God speaking about Lucifer ( Satan) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth, and I have set you so, You was upon the Holy mountain of God, You haved walk up and down in the midest of the stones of fire"

    This is why God Replace Lucifer ( Satan) with the Zoons that say night and day Holy, holy, holy.
    Because of Lucifer's ( Satan's) rebellion against God, God Replace Lucifer ( Satan) the covering Cherub that the Cherubim's no longer stands at the Throne of God, But the Zoons are now standing at the Throne of God.

    Now in Revelation Christ Jesus Uncovered and Revealed the Cherubim's have been replace with the four zoons, that say night and day Holy, holy, holy standing at the Throne of God.

    In the book of Revelation, God given the last prophecy that is to happen, that when this last prophecy happens, Christ Jesus returns.
    Christ Jesus can not return until this last prophecy happens first. That when this last prophecy happens Christ Jesus returns and the Tribulation is over.


    Who exactly said they teach themselves, Christ Jesus will teach those, to whom he chooses.if a person has the eyes to see and ears to hear what the Spirit of God is saying, Then the Spirit of God shall teach them.
    Have you not read where Christ Jesus said
    In John 16:13--"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come"
    It seems that you have a hard time in believing Christ Jesus.

    Where do get the idea that Christ Jesus can not in able a person to understand Revelation.
    Christ Jesus can and does inable anyone that he chooses to understand Revelation. That has eyes to see and hear what the Spirit of God is saying.

    Christ Jesus himself gave the interpretation of the book of Revelation himself.
    That's why the book of Revelation, is called Revelation. Revelation means to Uncover to Reveal and Christ Jesus has done the uncovering and the Revealing of all things in Revelation himself.
     
    #124 Faithofchristian, Oct 14, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  5. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    John the Baptist was Elijah (Matthew 11:14), who came from heaven, as he did not die, and passed a double portion of his spirit to Elisha. Enoch never died either, and went straight to heaven. They are the "two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth". Elijah, a "righteous man" had the power of the kingdom of heaven, and could heal, raise the dead, and stop the rain for 42 months. (James 5:16-17)

    Revelation 11:4
    These witnesses are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
     
  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    1 John 26-27 says it all. There will be those who try and "deceive" the "the little children", who have the "Father abide in them. They need no teacher other than the anointing of God. The "stumbling blocks" come through men (Matthew 18:6). From the many JWs who have came to my door, mostly older women, they didn't seem to have a good knowledge of Scripture, much less any understanding and none with any apparent power or spirit, which is what the kingdom of heaven is. It is probably best that they stick to passing out blurry tracts about a future kingdom of God.

    1 John 26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
     
    #126 2ndpillar, Oct 14, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  7. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Have you, yourself read in Revelation (As for the four Zoons sayingHoly, holy, holy. That Christ Jesus Uncovered and Revealed in Revelation that the Cherubim's have been replace with the Zoons, that are now standing at the Throne of God, saying night and day Holy holy holy.

    Why did God replace the Cherubim's with the Zoons, If you go to the book of Ezekiel 28:13-14, you will find that Lucifer was a Cherub that stood before the Throne of God. And now in Revelation Christ Jesus shows the Cherubs have been replace with the Zoons.

    Because of the Cherubim Lucifer ( Satan) Rebellion against God back in the first earth age. That now Christ Jesus is Uncovering and Revealing in Revelation the Cherub Lucifer has been replace with the Zoons standing at the Throne of God, saying Holy holy holy night and day.
     
    #127 Faithofchristian, Oct 14, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  8. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Ezekiel 28:12 was with respect to the "king of Tyre" (Phoenician/Lebanon), who once lived on the "mountain of God", but because of the iniquities brought on by the "abundance of his trade" (Ezekiel 28:16) will be "cast to the ground" per edict of the "son of man", for then "I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered.. and they will live in their land I gave to My servant Jacob" (Ezekiel 28:25) & (Ezekiel 37:15-25). Tyre will no longer be a "painful thorn from any round about them (house of Israel)" (Ezekiel 28:24). Tyre will be among the nations crushed all at the same time per Daniel 2:35, prior the setting up of the kingdom that "will itself endure forever" (Daniel 2:44). Satan/the dragon, is only a source of authority for the king of Tyre, as with the 8th head of the beast and his 10 horns.(Revelation 17:11) & (Revelation 13:4).
     
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    You have no idea or clue what your talking about.
     
  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that is what I thought when you started referring to zoons. I can't tell from which hill you are coming from. But with there being around 38,000 "Christian" sects, one can't be expected to keep up with them all.
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    You haven't a clue or idea what your talking about.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Because he appointed a "faithful slave" to "feed" his household their "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45)...so no individual can "feed" themselves. Are you the faithful slave? If so, how do you "feed" Christ's entire household? Unity of belief and love among themselves is what identifies Christ's true followers. Who are your spiritual brethren? (1 Corinthians 1:10; John 13:34-35)

    There are only two "tables" from which people spirituall 'eat and drink' according to the apostle Paul..."You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of ‘the table of Jehovah’ and the table of demons.” (1 Corinthians 10:21)

    If you are not feeding at Jehovah's table, then you are feeding at the other one. The food looks good but it is spiritually poisoned.

    Not if you are the only one who believes it....don't you see?
    Thousands of people believe that they are blessed with knowledge that others do not have.....who do we believe? What makes them wrong and you right? :shrug:
     
  13. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    When reading the book of Revelation, What people do not realized, is unlike the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John,
    Christ Jesus made mentioned of other books of the bible for reference's.

    But there is no where in the book of Revelation that Christ Jesus makes any mentioning of any other books in the bible nor any reference to any of the other books of the bible.

    Upon reading the very first chapter and verse of Revelation, you will notice that the book of Revelation is dedicated to Christ Jesus.
    ( The Revelation of Jesus Christ)

    Where as all the other books of the bible,
    God gave prophecy to his servants the Prophets.
    Where as the book of Revelation being totally different than all the books of the bible.
    Christ Jesus giving the Prophecy's in Revelation and it's Christ Jesus that's giving the Interpretation of the Prophecy's in Revelation.

    In Revelation 17 You will read about the Mother of Harlots, and in the book of Revelation, you will find Christ Jesus giving the Interpretation of who the Mother of Harlots is.

    In Revelation 13:11, Who will read about the beast that comes up out of the earth.
    And in the book of Revelation, you find Christ Jesus giving the Interpretation of who this beast is.

    In Revelation 9:11, You read about the king of the bottomless pit.
    And in the book of Revelation, You will find Christ Jesus giving the Interpretation of who this king of the bottomless pit is.

    But Notice, Not One Time does Christ Jesus make any reference to any other books in the bible in Revelation as a reference.
    As Christ Jesus did in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. In giving many references to other books in the bible.
     
  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    By going by what Christ has said and laid out in Revelation.

    You said (
    Upon reading the book of Revelation, What people do not realized, is unlike the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John,
    Christ Jesus made mentioned of other books of the bible for reference's.

    But there is no where in the book of Revelation that Christ Jesus makes any mentioning of any other books in the bible nor any reference to any of the other books of the bible.

    Upon reading the very first chapter and verse of Revelation, you will notice that the
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Where on earth do you get this stuff? :rolleyes:

    The angel who told Zechariah about the birth of his son, told him that he would have "Elijah's spirit and power". (Luke 1:16-17)
    That does not mean reincarnation because the Bible itself is devoid of such an idea. There is no teaching of an immortal part of man that is separate from his body. Elijah did not go to heaven. John did the same sort of work that Elijah did, but he did not have the power to perform miracles, did he?

    The Bible plainly says that no one went to heaven before Jesus, (John 3:13) I'm afraid the Bible argues with you on so many points that you seem to think you know...but none of it makes sense to anyone but you apparently.

    Not everyone is student material.....but that is the beauty of the message. It can be brought by those with little education or it could be brought by a scholar.....the message is the same. You mistakenly judge the messenger. The spirit brought them to your door.....what doors does the spirit impel you to knock on? (Acts 5:42; Acts 20:20) Those tracts have been the catalyst for many wonderful Bible studies...so don't discount them. Those older ladies are fulfilling the great commission a good deal more than you I suspect. (Matthew 28:19-20)
     
    #135 Deeje, Oct 14, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You say that like its supposed to mean something.....? :shrug:

    Revelation is exactly what it means...a revelation about the future...so why does Jesus need to refer to other books of the Bible? Jesus was the last prophet that God sent to teach mankind. (Hebrews 1:1-2) His words are preserved and are still teaching his disciples today....including the Revelation to John.
     
  17. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    In your post #112 you said ( What makes you think that God has replaced the cherubs? These are cherubs. They are always seen around God's throne.

    So you actually believe that the Cherub are the Zoons.
    So you actually believe that Lucifer stands before the Throne of God saying day and night Holy holy holy,
    Now that is amazing.
    Never heard that one before.

    Before the fall of Lucifer, Lucifer was the cherub that covereth. What was that Lucifer was covering, stood over at the Throne of God's ?
    In the book of Ezekiel 28:14---"Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire"

    If you had notice in Revelation 4:8, there are 4 beasts, which are the 4 Zoons.

    There are only 2 Cherubim's that stands before the Throne of God's.

    Seeing the 2 Cherubim's we're replace with the 4 zoons.

    In the book of 1 kings 6:23, here we find only 2 Cherubim's. One of which represnted Lucifer.

    So how is it that you say the Zoons which are 4 of them. are the Cherubim's which were only 2 of the Cherubim's and one of Cherubim represented Lucifer the fallen one from heaven.

    Seeing that there were 2 Cherubim's, one of which represented Lucifer.
    Now who do you suppose the other Cherubim represented?

    1 kings 6:23--"And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high"

    So here we find there were only
    2 Cherubim's.
    One of which represented Lucifer.
    Now who do you suppose the other Cherubim represented?





     
  18. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    It does mean something, not to add on to the book of Revelation and not to take away from the book of Revelation.

    You said ( Revelation is exactly what it means...a revelation about the future...so why does Jesus need to refer to other books of the Bible? )

    Seeing that Jesus never needed to refer to other books of the bible in Revelation,
    The question is, Then why are you doing what Jesus didn't do in the book of Revelation. By adding in other books of the bible into Revelation.
    Good Question right.

    Christ Jesus is our example they we are to follow, seeing Jesus never needed to refer to other books of the bible, then we should follow the example that Jesus sat fourth, and not refer to other books of the bible either in Revelation.

    Revelation 22:18-19---" For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book"

    19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book"
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Ezekiel's vision had God's throne with four cherubs as well. Were these "beasts" or are they more accurately described as "living creatures"?

    "Within it were what looked like four living creatures, and the appearance of each one was like that of a human. 6 Each one had four faces and four wings. 7 Their feet were straight, and the soles of their feet were like those of a calf, and they were shining like the glow of burnished copper. 8 They had human hands under their wings on all four sides, and the four of them had faces and wings. 9 Their wings were touching one another. They would not turn when they went; they would each go straight forward.

    10 Their faces had this appearance: Each of the four had a man’s face with a lion’s face on the right, a bull’s face on the left, and each of the four had an eagle’s face. 11 That is how their faces were. Their wings were spread out above them. Each had two wings that were touching one another and two wings covering their bodies."
    (Ezekiel 1:5-11)

    This is similar to what John saw. The four cherubs have features that reflect God's cardinal attributes.....wisdom, power, justice, and love.

    Cherubs are the guardians. It was cherubs posted in Eden, one of which was the angel who rebelled and made himself into a devil. There were also cherubs posts to guard the way to the tree of life after the fall.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It seems to be you who wants to add things...? What am I adding?

    You are confusing me......what on earth are you on about? If the Revelation is about the future, then why does he need to mention other Bible books? Why is this so important to you?

    You are not making a lot of sense....sorry.
     
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