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Featured What Did Jesus Mean?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Here's what you said ----""A significant silence this! Half an hour can seem a long time when you are waiting for something to happen. Now, even the constant heavenly chorus of praise is no longer heard. (Revelation 4:8)

    As to where do you get a ( heavenly chorus) and how or where do you get
    ( is no longer heard) When there's no where that Christ Jesus ever said anything of the such in Revelation.

    By the way didn't you say at beginning of your post ---> ( Figuring out what things mean on our own can be a trap that leads us to misunderstand other things we try to figure out on our own.)

    Then why are you, going about trying to figure out things on your own? So what your doing is contradicting yourself.

    The problem that your having is that your putting your thoughts into why there's silence in heaven. When that's a literal silence in heaven and not a symbolic silence as your trying to say it is.

    When Christ given to John about silence in heaven about the space of half an hour"
    In Revelation 8:1.
    That's a literal half an hour and a literal silence, If it's not, then Christ Jesus would haved said so. But seeing Christ didn't say.
    Then that's a literal half an hour and a literal silence. And not to be taken in any other way.
     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Three quick points because I gotta go.

    One is that Jesus said to bring the children unto him because they are of the Kingdom of God, so the Kingdom had to exist here on Earth through him prior to Pentecost.

    Secondly, the JW concept that the apostolic church fell into apostasy essentially turns Jesus into a liar as he promised he would guide the Church until the end of time and would send the HS to guide it, turns Paul into a fool as he said the Church was "one body", and turns Pentecost into a farce as it was a Church thingy.

    And finally, the concept that the earthly and heavenly saints could pray for one another we know was a belief in the apostolic Church. Plus it stands to common sense from scripture as why would one believe there's some sort of magic wall that separates these two sets of saints and keep them from praying for each other? If I can pray for people here at RF and you all can pray for me (heaven knows I need 'em), what supposedly stops the saints from praying for each other?
     
    #102 metis, Oct 13, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  3. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Really? I think the 10 horns of the 8th head of the beast, who was and is not (Revelation 17:11), who was Julius Caesar/emperor/dictator of world empire, would point to globalism, under the authority of the beast, versus local control/nationalism. As for when God's earthly kingdom takes charge, that is when "the LORD will go forth to fight" (Zechariah 14:1-3), which is when "all the nations" "gather" "against Jerusalem". It is the globalist who rant against the Jews being in Jerusalem, and support Sharia law, such as witch Hillary, and her brother, the Muslim Hussein Obama.

    As for Revelation 17:12-14, that war would be against the "chosen and faithful", which would be the keepers of the Law. As for Revelation 17:15-17, the "harlot" would be the Jews/Judah, who will be persecuted and made desolate by the 10 horns, "until the words of God should be fulfilled" (Hosea 5 -6:3). When "the sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king" (Hosea 3:5). Then is when "Judah also will fight in Jerusalem" (Zechariah 14:14) along with the LORD. Your globalist, the nations of Daniel 2:35, will all be "crushed all at the same time".

    Har-Magedon is with respect to Revelation 16:14-21 whereas the "kings of the whole world are gathered" and you will get "a great earthquake" whereas all the "cities of the nations fell", and "every island fled away", and "huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men"
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Did you even read the scripture?

    "As for the four living creatures, each one of them had six wings; they were full of eyes all around and underneath. And continuously, day and night, they say: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming.”

    There is the heavenly chorus, "continuously day and night" offering praise to God.

    What I offer you is what is taught in my brotherhood. We are most certainly not trying to figure anything out individually. (1 Corinthians 1:10) We all believe the same things....eight and a half million of us who are from "all nations, people and tongues".

    And why are you not doing what you accuse me of doing? Are you not offering your own thoughts? Who else thinks as you do? Read 1 Corinthians 1:10. You can't be a 'one man band'.

    Revelation is given in signs, so a cursory reading will not divulge its meaning....nor will a single individual be able on their own to discipher it. Jesus is the head of his congregation and it is he who leads his disciples to the correct understanding by means of God's holy spirit. (as he did at Pentecost)

    He appointed a "faithful slave" to "feed" his household their "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) At no time did Jesus assign that 'feeding' to one person. He has always had a group to represent his interests. He chose 12 apostles, not just one. Eight individuals were used to write the Christian scriptures....all in harmony because they were inspired by God.

    'Lone rangers' need to understand that every individual who thinks that God or Jesus speaks only to them, needs to acknowledge that God has never worked that way.

    It would also mean that confusion would be the result as people would then have to wonder who out of all those countless individuals is right...or else write off the lot of them as sadly deluded.
    Do you understand this very basic fact?
     
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  5. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Tell that to the self proclaimed apostle Paul, the son of hell. On the other hand tell that to Yeshua, the son of God, whose brothers can do greater things than he. (1 John 14:12) And to be truthful, your JW teachers and leaders are not the same as shown in Matthew 23:8-9. As for how an individual is to be taught, that is by the anointing (1 John 2:27). That is not to say that FoC knows up from down, or even right from left.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    OK, let's see if this is what Jesus really said...looking at Mark 10:14 from various translations.....

    "When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." (NIV)

    "But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God." (ESV)

    "But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." (NASB)

    Are you seeing what I am seeing metis?

    Jesus chose a young child to demonstrate that those with childlike attributes will belong in the Kingdom. "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:4) The qualities of humility, trust and teachableness are required to become a disciple of Christ.

    The kingdom had not yet been formed when Jesus said that. The 12 apostles form the very foundations of the kingdom and they were not yet in heaven and neither was Jesus at the time. "New Jerusalem" is the "holy city"...the "bride" of Christ. Its rule over mankind was yet future. (Revelation 21:2-4; 9-14) Could you be misinterpreting this?

    That is a misrepresentation of our beliefs metis.
    If you read Matthew 7:21-23 you will see that those who claim Jesus as their "Lord" at the final judgement, enumerate all the things they did "in his name"...and yet what does he say to them?....."I NEVER knew you, get away from me you workers of lawlessness"!

    "NEVER" means "not ever" and when "the church" became increasingly unrecognizable (in its teachings and structure) after the apostasy set in from the second century onward, (i.e. after the completion of the Christian scriptures and the death of the last apostle, John at the end of the first century) we see a steady decline as the "weeds" that Jesus foretold, invaded the church and made it as weak as dishwater spiritually......but it gained much power politically. That power corrupted them completely. It was ripe for the takeover of Roman paganism by an Emperor who simply wanted to consolidate his divided empire. The declaration of Roman Catholicism as the state religion was never going to be anything but a mish-mash of paganized Christianity...IOW no Christianity at all. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

    I don't believe that Christ has ever recognized that "church" and has never even set foot in it. He was always with the dissenters...the ones who lost their lives by speaking up and exposing the church and its own heresy....these are the true martyrs, killed by the very church who claimed to represent Christ. Do you see a mirror image of apostate Judaism? Both assume that they can continue on as they are, and still expect that God will forgive them. But neither have given him any basis upon which to do that. Both retain the beliefs and practices they have always clung to.

    I see no magic wall, but I also see nothing in the scriptures that even suggests that such a thing is necessary. The "saints" were to sleep in their graves until Jesus returned, according to the apostle Paul, at which time Jesus was to call them out of their sleep and take them to heaven. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) That means that all those prayers to the "saints" over all those centuries, fell on deaf ears. Why did the church not know this?

    The only mediator we have is Jesus......there are no other people designated in scripture to take our prayers to God. (Galatians 3:20)

    The living pray for the living. The dead do not pray for anyone. Those taken to heaven are part of the solution to man's terrible situation on earth under the devil's rulership. (1 John 5:19) God is in the process of implementing his solution through the rulership of Christ and his 'bride'. These are already ruling in the hearts of his faithful ones, but soon he will bring his rulership to the whole earth by means of his kingdom, so that God's will can "be done on earth as it is in heaven". Christendom prays for this, but has no idea what they are praying for. It is going to be a life altering event, but not what many are expecting. (Daniel 2:44)

    This is how we see things.
     
    #106 Deeje, Oct 13, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven." (Matthew 23:8-9)

    I agree. We call no man our teacher but that doesn't mean that Jesus does not teach his disciples through men. He used his apostles to teach others, yet there is to be no rank...all are equals, none more important than another.
    We call no man our spiritual father either....recognizing Jehovah as our only Father.

    But the anointed individuals had to belong to one congregation of fellow believers. All met together to spiritually enrich others and to learn more about their God. All were to participate in the preaching of the good news. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14)

    All had to have one message of salvation, not a bunch of mixed messages from those who think they know better.....and Jesus assured us that he was going to direct the work right to the end of the present system of things. Who is doing that on a global scale as Jesus directed....doing works greater than he himself did?
     
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  8. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain exactly who those four beasts are that they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy.
    Who are they ?
    What was the reason behind why God created them, to take the place of the Cherubs that stood at the Throne of God.

    Have you any clue or idea, as to why God created to only say, Holy, holy, holy.
    What happened to the Cherubs, for God to create these four beasts to take the place of Cherubs.

    Have you notice in the four Gospel's, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, how many time Christ Jesus mention Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses.

    But in the book of Revelation, Christ Jesus doesn't mention no one. Why is that ?

    Don't you think, that if Christ Jesus wanted people to go to other books in the bible, Christ would have made reference of other books, As Christ did in referring to Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Moses.
    But Christ

    Because Christ Jesus is giving everything himself and not leaving it to anyone else.

    God gave the book of Revelation to Christ Jesus, then Christ Jesus gave his book of Revelation to John.

    But it's Christ Jesus that is giving everything. including the Interpretation of all things in the book of Revelation.

    Have you not read in the book of
    Matthew 18:20---"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them"

    I'm number #1, The spirit of truth #2
    And Christ Jesus in the Midst. What more can I ask than that.
    Christ Jesus did say, Where two or three are gathered together in his name, there he is in the midst over seeing everything.
     
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Here's what you said ( nor will a single individual be able on their own to discipher it)

    That's why Christ Jesus did all the disciphering
    of Revelation himself.
    Christ Jesus can and does to whom so ever he chooses to understand Revelation.

    Christ Jesus in Revelation foretold who the Mother of Harlots is.
    Who the king of the bottomless pit is.
    Who the beast is that comes up out of the earth.
    Who the beast is that comes up out of the sea.
    Christ Jesus foretold who they all are in Revelation himself.

    You do know in the book of Mark 13,
    Christ Jesus foretold what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is
    When it well happen
    And who can commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
     
    #109 Faithofchristian, Oct 13, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    And yet you have leaders (Matthew 23:10) who appoint your teachers, and proscribe your doctrine. The traditions of men are an abomination to God.(Matthew 15:9) What need you your tracts if you have the Law and the prophets, as well as the testimony of God. Do you think the mumblings of men will equate to the Word of God?

    The problem is that your message "of salvation", is not the message of Yeshua. His message was "repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand", which is to say, alive and among you. Your message if just one of the "many". You are mixing the coming kingdom, which is composed of Judah and the house of Israel, under one king David, living on the land that I gave to Jacob (Ezekiel 37:15-28) with the kingdom of heaven which is within. Yeshua is sitting at the right hand of God, and the anointing teaches on earth. The ruler of world is not Yeshua, and the beast is not ruled by Yeshua, and the daughter of Babylon sits on the beast, not king David. The message about those who "escape" and "survivor" is the message of Joel 2:31-32 & Matthew 24:22, and was one that the "few" survive (Matthew 7:13), whereas the "many" go to "destruction", for they follow the false prophets of Matthew 7:15. Yeshua gave his testimony, and those that heed it have built their house on a solid foundation, those that choose to follow other testimony wind up being washed away because of their foundation of sand (Matthew7:24-26). If you look at the weather report, the wind has been blowing, floods a coming, and the rains a falling
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Here's what you said ( Revelation is given in signs, so a cursory reading will not divulge its meaning....nor will a single individual be able on their own to discipher it)
    And if I may add, Nor well anyone whether it's a single person or group of people.
    to discipher Revelation.
    All because Christ Jesus already disciphered Revelation himself.

    Christ Jesus already disciphered who the Mother of Harlots is.
    Who king of the bottomless pit is

    All things in Revelation Christ Jesus already gave the Interpretation of who all things are in Revelation himself.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    What makes you think that God has replaced the cherubs? These are cherubs. They are always seen around God's throne.

    “And in the midst of the throne and around the throne there are four living creatures that are full of eyes in front and behind.”Revelation 4:6b.

    What do these creatures picture? A vision reported by another prophet, Ezekiel, helps us to find the answer. Ezekiel saw Jehovah enthroned on a celestial chariot, which was accompanied by living creatures embodying characteristics similar to those described by John. (Ezekiel 1:5-11, 22-28) Later, Ezekiel again saw that chariot throne accompanied by the living creatures. This time, however, he referred to the living creatures as cherubs. (Ezekiel 10:9-15) The four living creatures that John sees must represent the many cherubs of God—creatures of high rank in His spirit organization. John would not think it unusual to see cherubs positioned so close to Jehovah’s person, since in the ancient tabernacle arrangement, two cherubs of gold were displayed upon the lid of the ark of the covenant, which represented Jehovah’s throne. From between these cherubs, Jehovah’s voice issued commandments to the nation.—Exodus 25:22; Psalm 80:1." (From our Revelation Climax Book)

    It goes on to say...“And the first living creature is like a lion, and the second living creature is like a young bull, and the third living creature has a face like a man’s, and the fourth living creature is like a flying eagle.” (Revelation 4:7)

    They are not "beasts". Because each represents an animal indicating one of God's primary attributes, they are called "zōon" which in Greek means "a living being or an animal."

    I think you need to lose the KJV.

    [/quote]Have you notice in the four Gospel's, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, how many time Christ Jesus mention Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses.

    But in the book of Revelation, Christ Jesus doesn't mention no one. Why is that ?[/quote]

    For his Revelation, John was taken into another time zone.....so I would imagine that because Revelation was about the Lord's Day, everything written is undergoing fulfillment now and in the future.

    No. I don't suffer from that fatal affliction called "I think". Jesus referred to the ancient prophets as they spoke of future times. The Revelation takes us even further.....a 1,000 years into the future in fact.

    And yet congregations of Christ's followers were many more than 3. If you think that "you, the spirit of truth, and Jesus" are all that is necessary, then I must introduce you to thousands of other people who think the same way as you do...all with different ideas. What makes you more believable than they are. They are just as sincere, but just as deluded IMO. God does not work like that.

    He has always had a people who bear his name to the world by their witnessing and by their conduct. After Jesus was executed, and those of the Jewish nation were given first opportunity to become part of the "kingdom of priests and a holy nation" that God had foretold at Exodus 19:5-6, he turned his attention to the Gentiles to take from them....."a people for His name." (Acts 15:14)

    IMO, those who teach themselves are wide open to the devil's deceptions. God has always provided teachers for his people and he has teachers today.....it is up to us to find them, not just to imagine that we can be a congregation of one to whom Jesus has revealed all personally.

    Who else believes as you do? Do you know of anyone?
     
  13. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Is every saint an equal in heaven where perhaps there is no least or greatest? How can you be lower then the least and still be in heaven?
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Are you not also a man mumbling? Why would anyone accept your 'mumblings' over any other person who sees themselves as somehow the receiver of "special" knowledge?

    The Christian congregation also had leaders and teachers....they were just never elevated above any others. The traditions of men are those that go contrary to scripture....we do not have any beliefs that replace scripture.

    We believe it is....you are free to believe whatever you wish.

    Oh dear....that old chestnut? Who was Jesus talking to when he said that? It was the Pharisees to whom he said "their heart is far removed from me". He was telling them that the King of God's Kingdom was there in their midst but they rejected him.

    The kingdom is not an internal experience...it is a government of God poised at this moment to bring about drastic change on this earth. The devil rules this world and is about to be dethroned in spectacular fashion. The kingdom "comes" by crushing all corrupt human rulership out of existence and replacing it with Christ as King. (Daniel 2:44) This rulership will be permanent and will bring humankind back to the Edenic conditions that Adam and his wife lost for their children.
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You can't. John will never be in heaven. He died before Jesus opened the way to heaven.

    It was not his destiny. If it was, then Jesus would have resurrected John in the same way he did Lazarus.
     
  16. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Where is John's destiny then? Earth
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    People seem to forget that this earth is where God put humans in the first place. It was never intended to be training ground for heaven.

    If Adam and his wife had simply obeyed their God, they would still be here enjoying all their progeny in the paradise conditions that God asked them to spread all over the world. This Earth will yet be the glorious eternal home of faithful mankind. John and all the other pre-Christian men and women of faith will come back in the resurrection to enjoy the wonders of this amazing planet.

    This was God's first purpose...he never abandoned it. (Isaiah 55:11) His kingdom will re-establish it. Jesus came to get us back what Adam lost for his children.
     
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  18. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Heaven must be a significant place id imagine. If i had my glory thered be endless planets, and perpetual energy with warp speed travel, an infinity of endless discovery. No hunger, no pain, and no toxic chemicals and gases. Endless knowledge, and endless things to be. Endless things to do. With amazing life forms, and civilizations. Oh yeah id sign up to learn how to be a master creator too. There is no limit to my imagination on what paradise would be. An entirely new body that has no fleshly nature. On and on.
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Since no human was ever supposed to go to heaven, it stands to reason that most human hearts are programmed to live in paradise here on earth (everyone has their own vision of what paradise means to them). Most Christians though are fixated on going to heaven because they think the earth will be destroyed and the heavenly paradise is where everyone ends up....that is not what the Bible says at all. God's original purpose for humankind and this earth will be restored....after that the sky's the limit.

    Once God has taught humanity how to drive free will correctly, there will be no limits as to what he has in store for the rest of the universe.....all that you mentioned here and more...who knows? God has no limits, but he had to start somewhere....why not here? If free will can never be abused again, there is no telling what the future may hold....but we are material creatures designed for a material life.

    “‘Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.’ For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:9-10)
     
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  20. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    May i ask how God defines free will?

    I would say free will is the liberty to choose who you are. Be it evil , or good.
     
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