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Featured What Did Jesus Mean?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    I believe your missing something.
    In the book Acts 2:34---" For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand"

    What's the difference between what is being said here and what was said about Christ Jesus ascended into heaven?

    When Christ Jesus ascended into heaven, the body and spirit of Christ Jesus both ascended into heaven, This is why the tomb of Christ Jesus was empty.

    Now where as with king David, only the spirit of king David ascended into heaven, thereby leaving the body of king David still in the tomb.

    So naturally king David is not ascended into heaven with his body, only his spirit ascended into heaven.

    Where as Christ Jesus ascended into heaven both body and spirit.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7--"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

    As you can see, the body returns back to the earth and the spirit shall return back to God who gave it.

    As with king David, his body is in the grave to return back to the earth and his spirit returns back to God who gave it.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5
    "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten"

    No matter who they are, We all know one day we shall die.
    And once dead, we know nothing no more what is happening on Earth. Our body lays in the gave to return back to the earth and our spirit returns back to God who gave it.

    At death our body of flesh and spirit separate's, our body returns back to the earth and our spirit returns back to God who gave it.
    Therefore king David's body returns back to the earth and Davids spirit returns back to God who gave it.

    Therefore king David's body is dead and buried in the earth, but king David's spirit returns back to God who gave it.

    Christ Jesus is the only one that has ascended into heaven with both body and spirit.
     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    :(
     
  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Note that at the time Jesus was baptized, the "kingdom" was believed to be heavenly, not earthly. It wasn't until later in Jesus' life that the view based on what he taught became that those who believed in Jesus, whether living or dead, became "saints", thus part of the "Kingdom of God", thus the creedal "communion of saints", both earthly and heavenly.

    There's also been a long debated theological question as to when did Jesus become "one" with God, and some believed it was actually at his baptism, not his birth. Personally, I really don't get into that.
     
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    At the time of Yeshua's baptism by John the Baptist, the "kingdom of God" was believed to be earthly, whereas king David would rule the combined Judah and Israel on the "land that I gave to Jacob" "forever" (Ezekiel 3:24-27). That doesn't happen until after the "awesome day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32) & (Zechariah 14:1-3). On the other hand, the "kingdom of heaven" which Yeshua & John taught, was "at hand" (Matthew 3:2).
     
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  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Since those of Revelation 20:6 who have that first or earlier resurrection will have to be in Heaven in order to govern over earthly subjects of God's kingdom. They serve mankind as kings and priests as per Revelation 5:9-10.
    Jesus begins his 1,000-year reign at the start of the thousand years.
    Neither Jesus nor those who are part of the first and earlier resurrection will never again have a fleshly body.
    Flesh and blood can Not inherit the kingdom as per 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.
    Because they are resurrected first they do Not sleep in death as the rest do.

    Resurrection from the Greek word anastasis literally means: a rising up, a standing up.
    A 'standing up' again as Daniel 12:13 looked forward to.
    ALL the old Hebrew Scripture resurrections were physical resurrections.
    ALL the resurrections Jesus performed were physical resurrections.
    Jesus resurrected No one to Heaven, but back to healthy physical life here on Earth.
    Jesus was giving us a preview, a coming attraction, of what resurrections he will be performing during his millennial-long day of governing over Earth before Jesus hands back God's kingdom to his God as per 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.
     
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  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Revelation 17:12-14 takes place with today's nationalism because nationalism is a strong motivating force.
    Rather than accept God's kingdom ( thy kingdom come ) nationalism wants to preserve its own sovereignty.
    Such an attitude assures coming opposition to the ' Lamb'. - Daniel 7:13-14; Matthew 24:30; Matthew 25:31-33,36.

    As far as Revelation 19:14, the color ' white ' lets us know Jesus with fellow heavenly warriors fight a righteous war.
    That righteous war is the coming War of Armageddon to rid the Earth of wickedness - Rev. 19:14-16.
    This takes place before the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth begins.
     
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  7. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    At Christ Jesus coming to earth, all people on Earth are change in the twinkling of an eye from their flesh bodies to the spirit.

    There is no Resurrection back to the Physical body, Where are you getting this all at, Who told you this.
    Once Christ Jesus comes, everyone on Earth is change from their flesh bodies to the spirit.
    There is no more Physical bodies. All have changed in the twinkling of an eye to the spirit.

    And then all people stand before God at his Great White Throne Judgement. To be judge in the spirit.

    Those in Revelation 20:6 are here on Earth. Christ Jesus has establish his kingdom here on earth.
    So there's no going to heaven for anyone.

    During the thousand years reign of Christ Jesus, Those that come with Christ Jesus at his coming, are the Priest that will teach those people who are here on Earth the truth of God's Word.
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That is not my understanding metis. As Jesus was ascending to heaven, the disciples asked if he was going to restore the Kingdom to Israel at that time? (Acts 1:6) This indicates that the Jews had an expectation of the Kingdom being earthly, not heavenly. (All of Jesus' disciples were Jewish)

    It was at Pentecost (after Jesus' death and resurrection) with the outpouring of holy spirit that the disciples discerned the heavenly nature of the Kingdom and their role in it. They were given an inordinate desire to go to heaven to be with their Lord....those not so anointed have a natural desire to live in paradise, but they are not the same thing. God's anointing has to override our natural desire to live in the earthly paradise that we were created to enjoy at the outset.

    The anointing of Christ's disciples at Pentecost was the realization of the heavenly nature of the Kingdom and their role in it. So in John's Revelation, he saw heavenly "new Jerusalem" coming down out of heaven to "mankind" bringing the blessing of the Kingdom to earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4)

    The "saints" were the ones with the "heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) These were anointed by God's spirit, but not appointed by any church. Which means that the church basically lobbying God to make some a saint is ridiculous...an incredible overestimation of their authority IMO.

    And since the adoption of the pagan belief about an immortal soul, communing with dead saints is also ridiculous. The apostle Paul said that the 'first resurrection' was not to begin until Christ returned. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; Revelation 20:6) So any prayers to saints or anyone but God through Jesus Christ, was falling on deaf ears. Jesus was appointed as the only "mediator between God and men". (1 Timothy 2:5)

    Then I will answer that point for the benefit of others who might be interested....

    The Bible is pretty clear when you put aside the church's doctrines. The "oneness" that Jesus said he had with the Father is a unity of will and purpose, not a blending of deity. How do we know this? Jesus said "I and the Father are one" but in saying that, did Jesus mean that they were equal? Some Trinitarians like to say that he did. But at John 17:21, 22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: “That they may all be one,” and he added, “that they may be one even as we are one.” He used the same Greek word (hen) for “one” in all these instances. Obviously, Jesus’ disciples do not all become part of the Trinity.....but they do come to share a "oneness" of purpose with the Father and the Son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.

    That is how we understand scripture uncluttered by church doctrine.
     
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 17:22-14, hasn't happened yet, it's all still in the future.
    So how does the two witnesses of Revelation Chapter 11, fit into what your giving.

    How does Locust Army and the Scorpions army in Revelation chapter 9 fit into what your giving.
    How does the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials, fit into all of this that your giving.

    How does the beast that comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11, fit into what your giving.

    When the Angels start to sound the Seven Trumpets, how do they fit into all that your giving.
    How does Revelation chapter 8, there was silence in heaven, How does this fit into what your giving.

    How does Revelation 3:10, The hour of temptation fit in what you giving.

    How does Revelation 17, The Mother of Harlots fit into what your giving.

    How does Revelation 9:11 the king of the bottomless pit, fit into what your giving.

    It's all got to fit together for the book of Revelation to be complete. Otherwise your leaving out the basics of Revelation.

    Everything that Christ Jesus given in the book of Revelation has to fit together and not one thing left out.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It all fits....here is our explanation of Revelation....this should answer all your questions.

    Publications — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Your really think that I would lay aside what Christ Jesus is teaching throughout the book of Revelation, to take your book over the teachings of Christ Jesus.
    You can't be serious
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Your choice. You asked for our reasons for believing what we do about Revelation, and I provided them. If you don't want to know, why ask? :shrug:

    I wasn't asking you to lay aside what Christ taught.....I was asking you to consider another point of view. What I provided is what we believe Jesus the Christ taught in giving the Revelation to John.
     
  13. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    No I ask you if you can explain how the two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11 fits into what you were giving.

    I didn't ask for your book. I ask you personally.

    Anyway, there's absolutely nothing in your book that even lines up to what Christ Jesus has given in the book of Revelation.
     
  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    So what your saying is, to take another point of view over Christ Jesus.
    You can't be serious

    First of all, Christ Jesus already foretold all about the 3 Woe's what they stand for and who, throughout the book of Revelation.
    And they sure don't stand for what your book is saying they stand for.

    All your book does is skip over the basic things in Revelation
    Christ Jesus already foretold who the Mother of Harlots is, in Revelation.

    Christ Jesus already foretold when the two witnesses will come and what happens to them and what happens afterwards.

    Christ Jesus already foretold in Revelation who the locust are.
    Christ Jesus already foretold when he will come again in Revelation.
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    So you read it all did you? o_O Let me give you a rundown....

    "Revelation 11:3-4....“‘And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.’ These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth.”

    The sackcloth worn by the two witnesses appears to indicate their humble endurance in announcing Jehovah’s judgments. They were witnesses proclaiming his day of vengeance that would bring mourning also to the nations.—Deuteronomy 32:41-43.

    They had to preach this message for a definitely stated time: 1,260 days, or 42 months, the same length of time that the holy city was to be trampled underfoot. This period seems to be literal, since it is expressed in two different ways, first in months and then in days.

    We believe that there was a marked period of three and a half years when the hard experiences of our brotherhood matched the events prophesied here—starting in December 1914 and continuing to June 1918.

    The fact that they were symbolized by two witnesses confirms to us that their message was accurate and well founded. (Compare Deuteronomy 17:6; John 8:17, 18.) Jehovah’s purposes would be carried out—“‘not by a military force, nor by power, but by my spirit,’ Jehovah of armies has said.” (Zechariah 4:6, 10; 8:9)

    “And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them. And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled. And those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not let their corpses be laid in a tomb. And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth.”Revelation 11:7-10.

    We believe that “the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss” is of Satan’s design, a living political system of things. From 1914 to 1918 the nations were occupied with the first world war. Nationalistic feelings ran high, and in the spring of 1918, the religious enemies of the two witnesses took advantage of the situation. They maneuvered the State’s legal apparatus so that responsible ministers of the Bible Students were imprisoned on false charges of sedition. Faithful coworkers were stunned. Kingdom activity almost ceased. It was as though the preaching work were dead.

    The "great city" pictures a defiled “Jerusalem” that claims to worship God but that has become unclean and sinful in their practices. It pictures Christendom, the modern equivalent of unfaithful Jerusalem, the organization whose members had so much reason to rejoice when they silenced the disturbing preaching of the two witnesses.

    But there was a revival! ....
    “And after the three and a half days spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them. And they heard a loud voice out of heaven say to them: ‘Come on up here.’ And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.” (Revelation 11:11, 12)

    The corpses of the two witnesses were suddenly alive and active again. It was a bitter pill for those clergymen to swallow, the more so since the Christian ministers whom they had schemed to put in prison were free again, later to be fully exonerated. They advanced from strength to strength, fearlessly exposing Christendom’s hypocrisy....and continue to do so to this day. "

    Excerpts taken from Reviving the Two Witnesses — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You do understand that this is exactly my response to 'lone rangers' who think they know what the Bible says, but have no brotherhood who share it with them. How does that work? Will you single-handedly take Christ's message of salvation to the world? How?
     
  17. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    I know this much, That the Book of Revelation was given by Christ Jesus, and its Christ Jesus that would know more about Revelation than any man would know.
    What I do know about the bible, is because I listen to Christ Jesus, as he unfolds what everything means and stands for in Revelation.
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You avoided answering my question....were there ever lone Christians in the first century who accepted their own ideas about what Christ taught and were out of step with what the Apostles taught? (2 John 10-11) You know the answer is "no"....so where do people like you fit in? If we are told to meet regularly with fellow believers, (Hebrews 10:24-25) with whom do you meet for fellowship and encouragement?
     
  19. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Only if those follow believers, believe in the teachings of Christ Jesus.
    You see I don't need other books, I only need the bible and listening to what Christ Jesus will say. That's all I need.

    In the book of Revelation 8:1 there was silence in heaven for about the space of half an hour.

    What does Christ Jesus reveal in Revelation why there's silence in heaven.
    It's obvious why there's silence in heaven.

    What Christ Jesus reveals in his book of Revelation, is when Satan is cast out of heaven there's silence in heaven.no more disturbance going on between the angels of heaven and the angels of satans.

    It doesn't take alot to figure that out, when letting Christ Jesus do the revealing in Revelation.
     
    #99 Faithofchristian, Oct 12, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    "A significant silence this! Half an hour can seem a long time when you are waiting for something to happen. Now, even the constant heavenly chorus of praise is no longer heard. (Revelation 4:8) Why? John sees the reason in vision:
    “And another angel arrived and stood at the altar, having a golden incense vessel; and a large quantity of incense was given him to offer it with the prayers of all the holy ones upon the golden altar that was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense ascended from the hand of the angel with the prayers of the holy ones before God.”Revelation 8:3, 4.

    Figuring out what things mean on our own can be a trap that leads us to misunderstand other things we try to figure out on our own.

    "Under the Jewish system of things, incense was burned daily at the tabernacle and, in later years, at the temple in Jerusalem. (Exodus 30:1-8) During such incense burning, the nonpriestly Israelites waited outside the sacred area, praying—no doubt silently in their hearts—to the One to whom the incense smoke was ascending. (Luke 1:10) John now sees something similar happening in heaven. The incense offered by the angel is associated with “the prayers of the holy ones.” In fact, in an earlier vision, incense is said to represent such prayers. (Revelation 5:8; Psalm 141:1, 2) Evidently, then, the symbolic silence in heaven is to allow the prayers of the holy ones on earth to be heard."
     
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