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Featured What Did Jesus Mean?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    That was a more recent invention of the use of that terminology that became used after the Protestant Reformation. If you think any differently, maybe post some evidence that it was used after the rise of Constantine but before the Protestant Reformation.

    The apostasy involved those outside of the fold of the Church of the apostles or from those who left the fold in regards to some who were going against what the Church taught, namely what became known as "heresies" in English.

    Since it was the Church that chose the canon we use, and since that was not done until the 4th century, it's rather ironic that some use that same exact canon and yet claim the Church fell into apostasy. The canon simply did not choose itself, especially since there was "lively debate" over several of the books, including Hebrews and Revelation.
     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Prove it.

    I'll save you some time because you simply cannot do it, so at best the above is just your interpretation-- which is fine & dandy as far as it goes.

    Whereas in real estate the value of a house is largely based on "location, location, location", serious theological/biblical studies are largely based on "interpretation, interpretation, interpretation". Interpretations are like rectums-- every person has at least one.
     
  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Not true as the Trinitarian concept is often referred to as being the "Three in One [God]", thus not three gods.
     
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    I would say the version I gave would then be just as good as yours, except that I can back up what I have presented. The book of Revelation can not undo the book of Daniel. It has to correlate. According to Daniel 2:35, the nations to be "crushed" before the "kingdom to end all of these kingdoms" is set up to "endure forever", includes the head of gold (Daniel 2:38), Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon (Iraq). Revelation has to fit in with this narrative. The only nations listed from the time of Daniel to the "end of the age" by Daniel, were the kingdoms which brought judgment onto the head of Judah/Jews. The "house of Israel" remains "scattered among the nations" (Ezekiel 36:19), and will not be united with Judah (Ezekiel 37:16) until the day of the LORD when "My servant David will be king over them... and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob" (Ezekiel 37:24). It is Babylon's god Murdock/Bel, the sun god, who is associated with a triad of gods, who facilitated Judah's harlotry, and the harlotry of the subsequent Roman official Trinitarian Christian church.
     
  5. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Catholics simply do not worship the sun. Maybe actually check out Catholic sources for verification of this.

    BTW, neither did Judaism, whether one is dealing with the Northern or Southern Kingdom, worship the sun. Where are you getting this nonsense from?
     
  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The Catholics worship on the day of the sun god Sol Invictus, on Sunday, by reason of the edict of Constantine in 321 AD which made the day of the sun, the new day of rest. No one could buy and sell on Sunday for Constantine closed all the shops and government offices, which today remains known a the blue laws. As for verification, as a child I went to a Catholic school and went to church on Sunday, the day of the sun god Sol Invictus, the god of the Roman emperor Constantine, the "beast with two horns like a lamb" who instituted the Roman church at his convened Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. Judah worshipped the "sun god" Bel and Murduk.(Ezekiel 8:16) Israel worshipped both Astarte and Baal/Bel. (Judges 2:13) Easter is modeled after the feast of Astarte.


    Constantine's law of…321 [C.E] uniting Christians and pagans in the observance of the "venerable day of the sun" It is to be noted that this official solar worship, the final form of paganism in the empire…, was not the traditional Roman-Greek religion of Jupiter, Apollo, Venus, and the other Olympian deities. It was a product of the mingling Hellenistic-Oriental elements, exemplified in Aurelian's establishment of Eastern Sun worship at Rome as the official religion of the empire, and in his new temple enshrining Syrian statutes statues of Bel and the sun…. Thus at last Bel, the god of Babylon, came into the official imperial temple of Rome, the center of the imperial religion. It was this late Roman-Oriental worship of one supreme god, symbolized by the sun and absorbing lesser divinities as subordinates or manifestations of the universal deity, that competed with young Christianity. This was the Roman religion that went down in defeat but infiltrated and colored the victorious church with its own elements, some of which can be seen to this day. (Cramer 4)


    On March 7, 321, Sunday was declared the official day of rest, on which markets were banned and public offices were closed,[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity


    New American Standard Bible Ezekiel 8:16
    Then He brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house. And behold, at the entrance to the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs to the temple of the LORD and their faces toward the east; and they were prostrating themselves eastward toward the sun.
     
    #206 2ndpillar, Oct 17, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It had nothing to do with the sun and everything to do with the fact that Jesus rose on Sunday, thus Sunday was and is also called "the Lord's Day". "Lord", in that reference, is to Jesus, because the literal translation of the word means "overseer", such as an overseer of the flock.

    The transition to a primary Sunday observance long predated Constantine as it was a gradual process that was pretty much was complete by the end of the 2nd century. In the "Didache", written somewhere around the end of the 1st century, both Shabbat and "the Lord's Day" ("agape meal") were celebrated, but eventually the former was dropped due to the fact that the Church didn't have to follow halacha (Jewish Law).

    "Revelation" has nothing to do with 4th century events but everything to do with 1st century events.

    That is a reference to heretical groups that formed a very small minority by all indications, not mainline Judaism. "Easter" is an English term, not Hebrew nor Greek, so when Easter comes around I wish my Italian wife "Buona Pasqua", whereas "pasqua" is a word that relates to the "lambing" that the Hebrew word Pesach (Passover) comes from as well.

    Again, where are you getting the above garbage from? Do you blindly just believe them without actually checking things out for yourself?
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I would put the Protestant Reformation in our day or time frame, and since Revelation was Not written for the first century but for our times - Revelation 1:10 - then in that sense the terminology is for our time period.
    Remember even Daniel did Not know what would be revealed til later as per Daniel 12:9,4.
    I am curious why you mentioned Hebrews. Hebrews is compatible with the rest of Scripture.
    Revelation gives us the happy climax to Genesis because at Revelation 22:2 mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' Tree of Life ' for the healing of earth's nations under Messiah's coming governmental rule.

    I find Bible canon was completed by the end of the first century. No need for a lively debate at that time.
    The first-century writings were regarded as reliable giving us the Christian Scriptures as they are today.
    So, Bible canon was established early on the stage, so the ' church ' did Not have to establish it, but merely testify as to what was already accepted by the end of the first century.
    Ancient manuscripts support Bible canon as it is today. What Constantine did was to create a blending or mixing of non-biblical pagan ideas with Scripture thus creating ' Christendom '.
    Christendom or 'so-called Christian' but mostly in name only because Christendom often teaches customs or traditions outside of Scripture but teaches them as being Scripture.
    The present modern religious system of things is often out of harmony with the '66' books of Bible canon.
    The apocryphal books simply exclude themselves because they are out of harmony with the harmonious '66'.
     
  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Constantine set up Sunday as a day of rest for the farmers.
    It was easy to change 'Sun'day to 'Son'day in meaning now the Lord's Day.
    As Colossians 2:16 says to let No one call you into account (judge you) in regards to ......a Sabbath.

    Revelation can't have anything to do with first-century people because Revelation was Not written until the end of the first century, as was the gospel according to John and John's three epistles or letters written at the end of the first century. Revelation 1:10's setting is for our time period.

    Jesus never instructed his followers to commemorate his resurrection day.
    I find Jesus instructions are clear at Luke 22:19 to remember his day of death.
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find at Ezekiel 8:16 those Israelites did worship the ' sun '.
    Later, un-faithful Jerusalem was destroyed in the year 70 for being unfaithful to God and His Word.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, I too know the Trinity teaching as being three in One God.
    I wonder how a neuter 'it' can be a person when God put His spirit "it" upon others - Numbers 11:16; Numbers 11:25
    Also, at Acts of the Apostles 2:4 how can a person end up being 'filled' with another person.
    And, if God's spirit is poured out on all flesh as per Acts of the Apostles 2:17, how can a person be poured forth into all flesh.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find it is true Christians do Not do the animal sacrifices as the people under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law did.
    Besides the Golden Rule, Jesus gave us a NEW commandment found at John 13:34-35 to now have self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has. So, now we are to love neighbor ' more ' than self.
     
  13. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Yeshua was talking to Jews, under the Mosaic Law, when he quoted for them "I desire mercy, not sacrifice", yet the "Christians" demand the sacrifice of an innocent man for their sins.. They fail to realize that "every one will die for his own iniquity" (Jeremiah 31:30). And neither the "Christians" nor their leader and teacher, Paul, escape death. That was the message of the serpent, which is "surely you shall not die" (Genesis 3:3). Yeshua said that one is to love their neighbor as themselves. There is no "more". The only more is when one actually loves someone, then they would die for them. I haven't seen much of that lately.

    Matthew 12:7
    If only you had known the meaning of 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.
     
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Absolutely false. Some of the books were slam dunks, but many of the others weren't.

    False again as Constantine had nothing to do with the selection of the texts other than having the bishops do the selecting. There were roughly around a thousand books to choose from according to Anglican theologian William Barclay, and the debate got very lively, to say the least.

    Which shows me that you never read them because there's only one item of teaching that's different from halacha, and that was praying for the dead, which was commonly practiced but not found in the Tanakh. These books were not rejected as the decision on them was postponed.

    Again, where are you getting your stuff from?
     
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  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    You simply do not know what you're talking about since we know from the writing of the patriarchs how they perceived this and why.

    Yes, and it's a book written at the end of the century that encompasses what we call a "flashback" today.

    And Jesus never drove a car either, so do you walk everywhere or take your donkey?
     
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  16. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Being raised in a farm community, I can tell you that farmers never rest. They may worship the sun on Sunday morning, but before they do, they feed and milk he cows, and when they finish worshipping the sun god, they again feed and milk the cows. They aren't interested in markets and government offices being opened on Sunday.

    Daniel 2:35 & 12:13 is for the "end of the age", which is now, and parallels Revelation. If you have missed that, you are playing out in left field, and the rest of your team has gone home to get ice cream.

    As for the "Lord's Day", the "son of man is Lord of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:8). And he didn't arise on the first day of the week. The first day of the week dawns on the previous evening of the 7th day of the week, and at that time the cave was empty. As for your quoting the false prophet Paul, as your foundation (Col 2:16), good luck with that. Paul was one of the horns of the beast, Constantine, and observing Sunday is another sign of that beast, who got his "authority" (Revelation 13:4) from the "dragon"/devil, the god Sol Invictus.
     
  17. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    So much disinformation. All will be set right after the "day of distress"/the day of the LORD, when the "nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood" (Jeremiah 16:19).
     
  18. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Revelation was written during the era of the 6th head of the beast (Augustus Caesars) (Revelation 17:10). The "another" beast of Revelation 13:11, the beast with two horns like a lamb, Constantine, would be the 7th head of the beast, who would deceive "those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14). He would be followed by an eighth head of the beast, who was and is not, therefore a beast who reigned before the 6th head of the beast. That beast comes in the form of a demon spirit to gather the nations to Har-Magedon (Revelation 16:13-16). Har-Magedon happens at the "end of the age", which is now. The nation will be gathered against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-3). Daniel is still at rest (Daniel 12:13) , and has not received his "allotted portion" (Revelation 20:4). The "end of the age" remains behind " the door" (Matthew 24:33).

    The "son of man is Lord of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:8), not the Lord of the "day of the sun", Sunday, the 1st day of the week.
     
  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The date for Easter was set at Constantine's Council of Nicaea with respect to the spring solstice, which corresponds to the Feast of Astarte. It was established to distinguish it from the Jewish Passover , which is the 14th of Nissan and corresponds to the last supper.
     
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  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    So, you assert that you know more about the Church than the 2nd century patriarchs. Got it.

    Again, Pasqua relates to Passover but gentiles need not use the Jewish calendar, so the "Feast of Astarte" has literally nothing to do as to when Pasqua is celebrated. The Gregorian Calendar is not Jewish in origin.

    Are you Jewish? Assuming not, then you should not be insistent on following the Jewish calendar because that makes no sense. Maybe it's best for you to decide who you are first and then go from there.

    Also, can't help to note that you do not answer my question I've asked you before, namely where are you getting your (mis)information from? Seems like you've bought into JW propaganda.
     
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