What Did Jesus Actually Do?

[Marcion]

Too many people think spirituality is only about imaginary ghosts and demons; disembodied beings, and all that sort of nonsense. Whereas I think it's first and foremost about the essence of who we are as individual beings. About our biological and circumstantial uniqueness. Our "soul". This was a minimal and somewhat foreign concept in the patriarchal-clan culture of Jesus time, but it was an idea that was developing because his culture was becoming 'Hellenized' by the Roman occupation. So Jesus was introducing this kind of pragmatic (not mystical) 'spiritual' construct to his fellow Jews, and using it to better connect them to each other, and to their own God. So that rather than this 'Hellenization' pulling them apart and obliterating their Jewishness, as an oppressed and subjugated culture, it could actually bring them together, and cohere them.

I could now start quoting all the sayings in Q-lite that are mystical or connected to mysticism, but you can check it out for yourself:

The reconstructed sayings of the tantric-mystic Master Yeshua

In fact, the whole sayings collection is about how to lead a mystic life style and help spread that life style to others.

Christianity of course is a different matter, that is about spreading the Christian religion.

 

[sealchan]

The movement, like many messianic movements before and after it, would have died imo if not for Paul. I think Jesus himself had very little impact upon it and it's doubtful he intended to create a new religion.

Possibly...Paul was in dialog with that more home grown element of Christianity in Jerusalem and so he seems likely to have done much to foster its early spread outside that area. But just as an enormous tree must give due credit to the sapling and the sapling to the seed, should we not credit he who inspired Paul?

 

[Kenny]

Many more than that witnessed Sun Wukong's epic coolness.

Stop monkeying with me.

 

[Manoah]

I read through this thread somewhat bemused last night, wondering why a rabbi, philosopher, or spiritual teacher would need to DO anything. After sleeping on the issue, I had a few thoughts like the following (I'll type up one example) but then after reading through the debate, i now think many important issues have been raised by Rival's persistence here.

Sample half-baked thought: This OP seems like a trick question or one with too many assumptions hidden. Take as an example how we talk about the influence of Homer in literature class. Some say he is an historical figure, still--I think--but many textbooks say the blind poet from Chios is legendary. To ask what a legendary figure actually DID is a trick question.

So let's assume, just for the sake of debate that there is a least some historical Homer. What does he need to have DONE besides travel and sing the old stories that become the Iliad and the Odyssey? He is either a spark that set a very powerful cultural fire or he actually assembled, made artistic, and popularized--led to the transformation of myths and stories that spread to sculpture, paintings, movies, and what have you.

But let's move on.

I want to know what he did objectively to make him deserve his place in history not just amongst the Christians.

Would you like me to try a third time or is it pointless?

What did Jesus do that isn't a part of nominal Christian belief that awards him a place in history both secular and religious?

What did Jesus do that is tangible and verifiable that had a meaningful impact upon people at the time, that can be accepted by both the non-Christian and the Christian?

Tell me what Jesus did that I don't need to believe.

I asked what Jesus did.

What did Jesus do when he was alive.

What the hell did Jesus do?

This is exactly what I'm driving at.

Everything was done for him.

Perhaps a different angle that I don't think I saw mentioned yet is Jesus teaching and training method. Again, if you say it's all legend, we are back to a trick question.

However, if some of the sources are at least partially correct, Jesus may have had a way of teaching and training as well as a way of putting together content--similar to my Homer analogy--that did indeed provide a spark that allowed others to continue the fire. Some say there is a pattern of teaching focused on 3 close followers, 12 students, 70 workers, gatherings of 500, and mobs.

But if a rabbi or teacher is required to start a corporation or build a pyramid or write down the messages personally, I guess Jesus does not have the proper credentials.

???

 

[Rival]

I read through this thread somewhat bemused last night, wondering why a rabbi, philosopher, or spiritual teacher would need to DO anything. After sleeping on the issue, I had a few thoughts like the following (I'll type up one example) but then after reading through the debate, i now think many important issues have been raised by Rival's persistence here.

Sample half-baked thought: This OP seems like a trick question or one with too many assumptions hidden. Take as an example how we talk about the influence of Homer in literature class. Some say he is an historical figure, still--I think--but many textbooks say the blind poet from Chios is legendary. To ask what a legendary figure actually DID is a trick question.

So let's assume, just for the sake of debate that there is a least some historical Homer. What does he need to have DONE besides travel and sing the old stories that become the Iliad and the Odyssey? He is either a spark that set a very powerful cultural fire or he actually assembled, made artistic, and popularized--led to the transformation of myths and stories that spread to sculpture, paintings, movies, and what have you.

But let's move on.













Perhaps a different angle that I don't think I saw mentioned yet is Jesus teaching and training method. Again, if you say it's all legend, we are back to a trick question.

However, if some of the sources are at least partially correct, Jesus may have had a way of teaching and training as well as a way of putting together content--similar to my Homer analogy--that did indeed provide a spark that allowed others to continue the fire. Some say there is a pattern of teaching focused on 3 close followers, 12 students, 70 workers, gatherings of 500, and mobs.

But if a rabbi or teacher is required to start a corporation or build a pyramid or write down the messages personally, I guess Jesus does not have the proper credentials.

???

From my POV, Jesus didn't introduce anything new that wasn't heretical, let alone do anything. There is of course a Christian perspective, but from the point of view of someone like me, I can't see what he did that is important. What I'm driving at is the only important things Jesus did are in the context of Christianity, i.e., miracles. I want to know what Jesus did that will make non-Christians go 'Oh wow that was pretty cool'. I can do that with Muhammad and some other religious figures, but I picked on Jesus because he is at the head of the world's largest faith and I can't think of what he did that's particularly impressive that his influence should be worldwide. I just don't get it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Without both Christ and Muhammad we would be no better than cave dwellers.

We weren't "cave dwellers" before them.

 

[Rival]

Here's the thing...

There seems to be this prevailing attitude that 'Before Jesus everything was screwed up and horrible'; they even went so far as to give the whole of humanity (and let's face it, the Western calendar is standard) an entirely new way of measuring time based upon this guy's death. What on G-d's green earth warranted that? I can think of a thousand better dates at which to start the calendar.

It's always, 'before Jesus this', 'before Jesus that' - tell me what? What did Jesus change? What did he do? I have been told by countless Christians that Jesus is the great person who changed humanity and now all of a sudden everything is about peace and love and rice pudding. Except it isn't. Everything is exactly the way it's always been.

Justify this.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Here's the thing...

There seems to be this prevailing attitude that 'Before Jesus everything was screwed up and horrible'; they even went so far as to give the whole of humanity (and let's face it, the Western calendar is standard) and entirely new way of measuring time based on this guy's death. What on G-d's green earth warranted that? I can think of a thousand better dates at which to start the calendar.

It's always, 'before Jesus this', 'before Jesus that' - tell me what? What did Jesus change? I have been told by countless Christians that Jesus is the great person who changed humanity and now all of a sudden everything is about peace and love and rice pudding. Except it isn't. Everything is exactly the way it's always been.

Justify this.

I'd say it's actually worse now since their followers committed genocide all over the world and destroyed so many native cultures, starting with Europe's indigenous cultures. Since many of these cultures were primarily oral, we know next to nothing about them because there's not much left. There's less diversity in the world now and they have disrupted and broken so many different traditional folkways.

 

[Flame]

We weren't "cave dwellers" before them.

The countless empires that dominated before either were born comes to mind.

 

[PureX]

From my POV, Jesus didn't introduce anything new that wasn't heretical, let alone do anything. There is of course a Christian perspective, but from the point of view of someone like me, I can't see what he did that is important. What I'm driving at is the only important things Jesus did are in the context of Christianity, i.e., miracles. I want to know what Jesus did that will make non-Christians go 'Oh wow that was pretty cool'. I can do that with Muhammad and some other religious figures, but I picked on Jesus because he is at the head of the world's largest faith and I can't think of what he did that's particularly impressive that his influence should be worldwide. I just don't get it.

I would put it this way; the 'actuality' of Jesus was very limited, which is why we have no knowledge of it, today. Yet his effect was enormous! That is clear. So whatever it was that he did do in his time and place, it sure made an impact! And yet you keep trying to insist that he did little to nothing. But if he did so little, how did he have such a huge impact on so many people over such a long time?

 

[Rival]

I would put it this way; the 'actuality' of Jesus was very limited, which is why we have no knowledge of it, today. Yet his effect was enormous! That is clear. So whatever it was that he did do in his time and place, it sure made an impact! And yet you keep trying to insist that he did little to nothing. But if he did so little, how did he have such a huge impact on so many people over such a long time?

Because the people who believed he was the messiah did something, not Jesus, as I've been saying all the time. Plenty of people have been inspiring teachers and not been nearly so venerated. Plato, not worshipped, The Rambam, not worshipped, Rumi, also not worshipped. None held up as gods. So Jesus taught stuff and people liked it. This happens in every generation; it doesn't earn you a place in history as large as Jesus has.

 

[PureX]

Because the people who believed he was the messiah did something, not Jesus, as I've been saying all the time.

Yet he made them believe it. That's certainly more than you or I could do. Why are you trying so hard to diminish it?

Plenty of people have been inspiring teachers and not been nearly so venerated. Plato, not worshipped, The Rambam, not worshipped, Rumi, also not worshipped. None held up as gods. So Jesus taught stuff and people liked it. This happens in every generation; it doesn't earn you a place in history as large as Jesus has.

This particular instance has lasted through MANY generations. And this fact has already earned a very significant place in history, without your approval.

 

[Rival]

Yet he made them believe it. That's certainly more than you or I could do. Why are you trying so hard to diminish it?

We actually don't even know this; it seems as though Paul did more than Jesus in this regard. I'm not trying to diminish it, I'm trying to build it! I want to know what he did in real terms relative to his percieved importance and 'something' isn't an answer.

This particular instance has lasted through MANY generations. And this fact has already earned a very significant place in history, without your approval.

I want to to know why. He changed literally nothing. He was executed as a common criminal and most people went back to their lives, if they weren't already before. It just seems like an accident of history that he is so venerated. What did he do for the people, there at that time, that was tangible and worthwhile? Essentially all he did was make a bunch of people homeless beggars and riled Rome's anger. Great?

 

[loverofhumanity]

We weren't "cave dwellers" before them.

Just a figure of speech.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Just a figure of speech.

Obviously but you were still wrong. Humanity was fine without them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Obviously but you were still wrong. Humanity was fine without them.

Of course that’s your opinion as you don’t believe in Jesus.

 

[Rival]

Of course that’s your opinion as you don’t believe in Jesus.

But you must believe in what came before Jesus - was the Torah not good enough for the Israelites? Was it an error? Why would it take G-d thousands of years to 'fix'? You think G-d gave them a Law he told them to keep forever just so it could be deemed inferior? Rubbish.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Of course that’s your opinion as you don’t believe in Jesus.

It's demonstrable by what we know about history. Humans weren't a bunch of backwards morons before Jesus came. We had many civilizations, empires and flourishing cultures all over the world before Jesus.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But you must believe in what came before Jesus - was the Torah not good enough for the Israelites? Was it an error? Why would it take G-d thousands of years to 'fix'? You think G-d gave them a Law he told them to keep forever just so it could be deemed inferior? Rubbish.

God does as He pleases and I am just His humble servant. I love the Torah and all the Jewish Prophets with all my heart.

 

[Rival]

God does as He pleases and I am just His humble servant. I love the Torah and all the Jewish Prophets with all my heart.

Doesn't really answer my question though. Were the Jewish people, who you believe were given a Torah from G-d, were they cave-dwelling backwards people? With a law from G-d?