What Did Jesus Actually Do?

[Spartan]

Sure, Jesus did fulfill the Messianic prophecies noted in, say, Matthew's Gospel. If you think one is false then PICK YOUR BEST ONE (1 - ONE) example. Cite the scripture and make your case.

ONE - YOUR BEST ONE. From the Gospels.

 

[Rival]

Sure, Jesus did fulfill the Messianic prophecies noted in, say, Matthew's Gospel. If you think one is false then PICK YOUR BEST ONE (1 - ONE) example. Cite the scripture and make your case.

ONE - YOUR BEST ONE. From the Gospels.

I'm finished with you. I cited all the messianic prophecies for you and you failed to give me a response to any of them.

 

[ChristineM]

He was born, he preached, he was executed.

Wel there was this one time that it is said he walked on water. To me that puts him up with the greats like Harry Houdini and Tommy Cooper

 

[ChristineM]

Sure, Jesus did fulfill the Messianic prophecies noted in, say, Matthew's Gospel. If you think one is false then PICK YOUR BEST ONE (1 - ONE) example. Cite the scripture and make your case.

ONE - YOUR BEST ONE. From the Gospels.

But not nearly all the ones noted in hebrew scriptures. And after all the Messianic prophecies are a hebrew thing, not a selective christian thing

 

[Spartan]

But not nearly all the ones noted in hebrew scriptures. And after all the Messianic prophecies are a hebrew thing, not a selective christian thing

The Messianic prophecies that remain to be filled are expected to be fulfilled at the Second Coming - the time of the end. Those couldn't be fulfilled yet because the end times haven't come yet.

Christianity is a Hebrew thing. It's origins are in the Hebrew and Aramaic Old Testament. Jesus was a Hebrew. All his disciples were Jews.

 

[Spartan]

I'm finished with you. I cited all the messianic prophecies for you and you failed to give me a response to any of them.

You failed to cite ONE GOSPEL EXAMPLE that was false. You never cited one Gospel scripture as requested. And you're finished with me? You failed and failed badly. Probably because you don't have anything specific you can hang your hat on.

 

[ChristineM]

Philosophically, he combined the healing, passiveness, and message of James of Carthage with the slaughtered Messiah of the Essenes. Actual accomplishments? He drew the ire of Rome without going into their documentation.

Interesting point, he was crucified for whatever reason yet there is no Roman record. Rome, despite being a great military and governor of much of the middle east were extremely keen on administration, in such an empire jobs and even lives were taken for poor administrative proceedures. So surely there would be documentation of such a coup as capturing, trying and trying executing such a major enemy of the state, someone who openly decried the cult of emperor.

 

[Spartan]

Interesting point, he was crucified for whatever reason yet there is no Roman record. Rome, despite being a great military and governor of much of the middle east were extremely keen on administration, in such an empire jobs and even lives were taken for poor administrative proceedures. So surely there would be documentation of such a coup as capturing, trying and trying executing such a major enemy of the stare, someone who openly decried the cult of emperor.

Jesus wasn't a major enemy of the state. Pontius Pilate said he could find nothing wrong with him.

But if you need references, here's over forty within 150 years of Jesus' death:

One other thing, it’s entirely likely that numerous other historical works were lost when Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans in 70 AD. But we do know of at least forty-two authors, nine of whom were secular, who mentioned Jesus within 150 years of his death. Scholar Gary Habermas, in his Book "The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus" (p.233), listed the following: 9 authors from the New Testament - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Author of of Hebrews, James, Peter, and Jude. 21 early Christian writers outside the NT - Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp, Didache, Barnabus, Shepherd of Hermas, Fragments of Papias, Justin Martyr, Aristides, Athenagoras, Theophious of Antioch, Quadratus, Aristo of Pella, Melito of Sardis, Diognetus, Gospel of Peter, Apocalypse of Peter, and Epistula Apostolorum. 4 heretical writings - Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, Apocryphon of John, Treatise on Resurrection. And 9 secular non-Christian sources, including Josephus, Tacticus, Pliny the Younger, Phlegon, Lucian, Celcus, Mara Bar-Serapion, Seutonius, and Thallus.

 

[ChristineM]

The Messianic prophecies that remain to be filled are expected to be fulfilled at the Second Coming - the time of the end. Those couldn't be fulfilled yet because the end times haven't come yet.

Christianity is a Hebrew thing. It's origins are in the Hebrew and Aramaic Old Testament. Jesus was a Hebrew. All his disciples were Jews.

So you are now saying jesus didnt fulfill the messianic prophecies but will come back to finish the job. Pardon me if I dont hold my breath

Yes and modified, bastardised, carefully selected to form a new religion.

 

[Rival]

You failed to cite ONE GOSPEL EXAMPLE that was false. You never cited one Gospel scripture as requested. And you're finished with me? You failed and failed badly. Probably because you don't have anything specific you can hang your hat on.

Because the Messianic prophecies aren't in the gospels; they're in the prophets in the Tanakh. You can't use the gospels to prove the gospels, that's a circular argument.

 

[Spartan]

Because the Messianic prophecies aren't in the gospels; they're in the prophets in the Tanakh. You can't use the gospels to prove the gospels, that's a circular argument.

Some of the Messianic prophecies are quoted in the Gospels as being fulfilled. You could cite one of those and cite the GOSPEL SCRIPTURE # if you think it was false.

And using your logic, if and when the Messiah you might believe in fulfills various prophecies, how would you document that? You'd have to write out the fulfillments - when they happened. But by your logic you couldn't even do that because, as you say, they're in the prophets in the Tanakh.

Also, how can you claim Jesus failed to fulfill end-time prophecies when the end times haven't arrived so they could be fulfilled?

So you're not making any sense.

 

[ChristineM]

Jesus wasn't a major enemy of the state. Pontius Pilate said he could find nothing wrong with him.

But if you need references, here's over forty within 150 years of Jesus' death:

One other thing, it’s entirely likely that numerous other historical works were lost when Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans in 70 AD. But we do know of at least forty-two authors, nine of whom were secular, who mentioned Jesus within 150 years of his death. Scholar Gary Habermas, in his Book "The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus" (p.233), listed the following: 9 authors from the New Testament - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Author of of Hebrews, James, Peter, and Jude. 21 early Christian writers outside the NT - Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp, Didache, Barnabus, Shepherd of Hermas, Fragments of Papias, Justin Martyr, Aristides, Athenagoras, Theophious of Antioch, Quadratus, Aristo of Pella, Melito of Sardis, Diognetus, Gospel of Peter, Apocalypse of Peter, and Epistula Apostolorum. 4 heretical writings - Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, Apocryphon of John, Treatise on Resurrection. And 9 secular non-Christian sources, including Josephus, Tacticus, Pliny the Younger, Phlegon, Lucian, Celcus, Mara Bar-Serapion, Seutonius, and Thallus.

Interestingly there is just as much physical evidence that Jesus was a zealot of the fourth philosophy and a member of the sicarii assassin's. Executed for his crimes against the empire.

Jewish scripture gives his father as a roman soldier, if this is true then i i have seen his dads grave.

During the religious purges of Emperor Theodosius, any documents found that put jesus in a bad light were destroyed. The old burning the truth so history could be more easily manipulated in favour of christianity.

 

[Spartan]

So you are now saying jesus didnt fulfill the messianic prophecies but will come back to finish the job. Pardon me if I dont hold my breath

You're saying he had to have already fulfilled end-time prophecies when the end-times haven't arrived yet? What kind of twisted logic and argument is that?

Yes and modified, bastardised, carefully selected to form a new religion.

Horse manure.

 

[Spartan]

Interestingly there is just as much physical evidence that Jesus was a zealot of the fourth philosophy and a member of the sicarii assassin's. Executed for his crimes against the empire.

Jewish scripture gives his father as a roman soldier, if this is true then i i have seen his dads grave.

Cite the Jewish scripture that says Jesus' father was a Roman soldier? There isn't one. Just an unfounded rant in a rabbinic commentary. And along with that, where's the evidence to back up that (false) claim?

 

[Rival]

Some of the Messianic prophecies are quoted in the Gospels as being fulfilled.

Which?

The NT authors rip prophecies out of context, most of which aren't even messianic prophecies, such as Rachel weeping for her children and allusions to Jonah. It's nowhere written about how Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of returning the lost tribes or bringing peace to Israel. The complete opposite of this happened. Find me any instance where any of what I quoted from the Tanakh has been fulfilled by Jesus.

And using your logic, if and when the Messiah you might believe in fulfills various prophecies, how would you document that?

We wouldn't need to since it would be pretty obvious being that there'd be the whole world peace thing, and the whole everyone knows G-d is G-d thing, along with the rest of it.

Also, how can you claim Jesus failed to fulfill end-time prophecies when the end times haven't arrived so they could be fulfilled?

This is a Christian invention.

 

[ChristineM]

You're saying he had to have already fulfilled end-time prophecies when the end-times haven't arrived yet? What kind of twisted logic and argument is that?



Horse manure.

What makes them end time?

It is not up to christians to decide after they were prophecised

 

[Spartan]

Which?

The NT authors rip prophecies out of context, most of which aren't even messianic prophecies, such as Rachel weeping for her children and allusions to Jonah. It's nowhere written about how Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of returning the lost tribes or bringing peace to Israel. The complete opposite of this happened. Find me any instance where any of what I quoted from the Tanakh has been fulfilled by Jesus.


We wouldn't need to since it would be pretty obvious being that there'd be the whole world peace thing, and the whole everyone knows G-d is G-d thing, along with the rest of it.


This is a Christian invention.

When are you going to quit dancing around and CITE YOUR BEST ONE EXAMPLE from the GOSPELS? Cite the bloody scripture #.

And once again, you're saying Jesus had to have already fulfilled end-time prophecies when the end-times haven't arrived yet? What kind of twisted logic and argument is that?

 

[Rival]

When are you going to quit dancing around and CITE YOUR BEST ONE EXAMPLE from the GOSPELS? Cite the bloody scripture #.

And once again, you're saying Jesus had to have already fulfilled end-time prophecies when the end-times haven't arrived yet? What kind of twisted logic and argument is that?

When are you going to tell me which messianic prophecy Jesus fulfilled?

 

[Spartan]

What makes them end time?

It is not up to christians to decide after they were prophecised

It's not up to you to define the end-times. It's the Bible, which apparently you're not up to speed on. Otherwise you would know when the end times are here. Specific signs of the end-times are listed in scripture - i.e. a third Jewish temple, the appearance of the antichrist, etc., etc.

 

[Spartan]

When are you going to tell me which messianic prophecy Jesus fulfilled?

I challenged you first. Which Gospel prophecy is false? Hop out there. Cite the Gospel scripture of your BEST ONE example.