1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What day is the Sabbath?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Rex, Jun 21, 2004.

  1. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,392
    Ratings:
    +51
    Fear God, man after he has taken your life, he has really done you a favor!
    Obey God.
     
  2. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2004
    Messages:
    189
    Ratings:
    +2
    So you believe that it is important to keep Sabbath the way that the Bible specifies and to determine the day to keep by the methods specified in the Bible?
     
  3. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,392
    Ratings:
    +51
    Yes! Cease from your work, reflect your God, make yourself clean and holy as stated in Torah. A holy convocation. Your household, all to sanctifying it and keeping it a holy day to the lord.
    The seventh day of the week, you only have to go back to the first centuary Yeshua knew the Sabbath and he is the lord of the Sabbath, if he did not keep the Friday sunset to Saturday sunset, he could not be the Messiah. You will find he did it just this way and is truly the Messiah.
    If you love him! Keep the commandments.
     
  4. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2004
    Messages:
    189
    Ratings:
    +2
    Do you understand why I don't believe this? Am I being obscure?

    These words (phrases) cannot be found in the Bible:

    1. Friday
    2. Saturday
    3. Seventh day of the week (only the first day of the week is ever identified.)
     
  5. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,392
    Ratings:
    +51
    Ge. 1:31 evening and morning sixth day --- will become Friday
    Ge. 2:1 Seventh day -- Will become Saturday
    On the first day I disagree, it is not identified. Ge. 1:5 evening and morning, ONE DAY. --- will become Sunday

    I would be content to call them by first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh days. But it isn't my choice, the governing bodies decide our calender. I personaly use the Jewish calender
    Yom Rishon/1st day----Sabbath/7th day
     
  6. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2004
    Messages:
    189
    Ratings:
    +2
    Who said each of these days mentioned in Gen. would become the pagan planetary days of our modern week?

    Who said that this pattern of counting would continue without interuption regardless of the new moon?

    Is it acceptable to follow the calendar of men (Jewish, Julian, Gregorian, or any other calendard) instead of God's calendar?

    How can you know that men have not changed the calendar?

    If the "governing bodies" determine the calendar, are you not serving men instead of God?
     
  7. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,392
    Ratings:
    +51
    History, The Jewish calender is of God, study and the Ruach Ha Kodesh, cut me a little slack, I'm not God. A searcher. You need to get in the Word of God, pray for understanding. When you sincerely ask for wisdom it will be granted.
     
  8. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2004
    Messages:
    189
    Ratings:
    +2
    To say that the Jewish calendar is of God is a statement of faith. The standard for my faith is the Bible. You may have a different standard, and that is OK, but I can't accept that the Jewish calendar is of God. The Bible calendar is based on two principles, the new moon and the barley harvest, the Jewish calendar is based on the wisdom of men and tradition.

    Like Luther, I stand on the Word and the Word alone. Read the giving of the Sabbath in Ex. 14, there is nothing about days of the week, but the days of the month is clearly identified.
     
  9. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,392
    Ratings:
    +51
    The sadducees did not accept the Oral Torah nor ressurection of the dead, Yeshua said "you do greatly err, neither knowing the scriptures nor the power of God."
    There are many things (to you) missing from the word of God, since you believe no Jew has inspiration from God, only the NT in Greek is inspired.
    With out the Oral Torah you can not build the Temple, can't have the wedding of the Messiah and a myriad of other things that rely on the Oral Torah.
    I am so sorry you can not believe God. It's all there you need to get into it and have new eyes, along with a heart of flesh, even Luther found those things in the Word.
     
  10. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2004
    Messages:
    189
    Ratings:
    +2
    I have no idea what you are trying to say, most of the texts I have quoted are from the Old Testement. What you are saying is obviously beyond the meaning of language, I am sorry that words cannot express what you are trying to say.

    I believe that the Bible is THE ONLY STANDARD FOR FAITH AND ACTION. If you are aware of another standard, I would consider it. You have not described such a standard.
     
  11. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,392
    Ratings:
    +51
    Hebrew Bibles the Chumash and Tanach + Midrash and Gemerah, very needful to get the deeper understanding of the Word of God. But, as I said before Christians like Sadducees do not accept the Godly inspiration of Jews.
     
  12. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    41,682
    Ratings:
    +16,234
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Nor do you have much of an idea concerning what you are trying to say.

    There is a clearly evident 7-day cycle sanctified in/by the Torah - every Friday at sundown two candles are lit commemorating the instruction to (1) remember and (2) observe Shabbat. The pretentious insistence that the term "week" does not appear in the Tanach seems more than a little sophomoric.
     
  13. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2004
    Messages:
    189
    Ratings:
    +2
    Such big words from such a small mind, but seriously, there is no reason for personal attacks. I am quite clear about what I am saying.

    The Bible declares that the moon should rule God's appointments (of which the Sabbath is the first.) There is no indication of a continuous planetary week (uninterupted by the cycles of the moon, or some other celestial event) being used by the ancient Isrealites (or any other civilization for that matter.)

    It is a fact that every Sabbath, for which a date can be determined, was celebrated on the 8th or the 15th of the month (and by extension on the 22nd and 29th.)

    It is also a fact that the ancient Isrealites celebrated the new moon in a fashion very similar to their observance of the sabbath, they ceased from their labor, they refrained from buying and selling, and they opened the temple for corporate worship.

    It is clear to me that this new moon celebration lasted one or two days and that these were not counted in the counting of the Sabbath, that counting for the Sabbath resumed on the first of the month with the appearance of the new moon.

    So you see I am quite clear. Now you may argue that I am wrong, but unclear, I think not.
     
  14. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,775
    Ratings:
    +1,920
    ***MOD POST***

    Let's stop the personal attacks right here. Address the issue please, not each other. Thank you.
     
  15. Wleeper

    Wleeper Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2004
    Messages:
    53
    Ratings:
    +3
    The Sabbath is a part of the Mosiac Law that was given to the Jewish nation. It is a 24 hour period extending from sundown to sundown. There a number of special requirements associated with the sabbath but primarly it is to be a day of rest. Every seventh day was to be a sabbath but there were also sabbaths other than the seventh day sabbath. Passover was to be a sabbath along with other national feast days. The Sabbath law ended with the advent of Christianity and New Testament worship. Just as did the Jewish laws concerning diet, temple worship, and animal sacrafice.
     
  16. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2004
    Messages:
    189
    Ratings:
    +2
    I am quite aware of the popular view concerning Sabbath, but I claim that it is wrong. There is no evidence that the Sabbath was ever kept the way modern Jews keep it. Instead it was celebrated on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of every lunar month.

    There are a couple of places that suggest that the law was done away with, but there are many more that suggest that we should keep the law and will be doing so in heaven.
     
  17. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,392
    Ratings:
    +51
    I do suppose I am missing your point.
    The first day of a month is a New Moon feastday, whatever day it falls upon. the fifteenth day is the full moon. Seven day week established at creation.
    Ex. 12:1 Rosh Chodesh head of the year to you. On the tenth day take a lamb, on the fourteeth day slaughter it, mark the doorposts, on the fifteenth eat the sacrifice. this is the Passover. A seven day observance of matzos, first day and seventh day are Holy Convocation. 1st month 14th day to 21st day is Passover and Unleavened Bread.
    Seven day week, 30 day month, 360 day year is expounded in Torah and Oral Torah. A festival that begins on a numbered day does not preclude a seventh day Sabbath, that seventh day sabbath is observed as it would be had there not been a holiday, possible for three Sabbaths in an eight day festival. If this isn't what you are wanting let me know. I am just, learned enough, to be dangerous. LOL
     
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    41,682
    Ratings:
    +16,234
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The claim is tiresome and, to the extent that it pretends to go beyond semantic posturing, entirely unsubstantiated. A 7-day cycle is clearly established and mandated in Exodus 16:16-30 and explicitly linked to the creation myth in Exodus 20:8-11. This cycle is reaffirmed (for more wordly reasons) in Exodus 23:12. It is clearly reasserted in Exodus 34:21 and later codified in Deuteronomy 5:12-14.

    Parethetically, the Christian substitution of "the Lord's Day" for Shabbat was but one consequence of the Anti-Judaic replacement theology best expressed by John and Barnabus - a vitriolic effort on the part of a predominantly gentile or helenized sect to increasingly distinguish themselves from the so-called Christ-killers.
     
  19. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2004
    Messages:
    189
    Ratings:
    +2
    The story in Exodus 16 starts on the 15th day of the second month (Sabbath). They murmered against the Lord. In the evening (16th,) God sent quail and manna in the morning. They collected manna in the morning for six days (16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, and the 21th.) On the seventh-day (22nd,) manna did not fall, it was the Sabbath.

    The connection with creation is significant in Exodus 20. On the forth day of creation, the author says that the sun, moon, and stars where created to determine times, appointments, seasons, etc. In Psalms 119, David clarifies this statement. He says that the moon was made for appointments. The creation story is important because althouth it does not tell what should happen on the 8th, 9th, or any other day.

    The connection with the years of Jubilee are also significant in Exodus 23. This cylce includes a series of 7 periods of 7 years, followed by the year of Jubilee which is not counted (similar to the new moon intercalenation.)

    I keep the seventh-day, but not the seventh-day of the planetary pagan week. I believe that the ancient Jews kept the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of the lunar month, followed by a period which was not counted (as in the year of Jubilee) called the new moon feist (the 1st day, which could be one or two days long.)

    This is not an anti-Jewish statement any more than it is an anti-Christian statements, it is simply the truth.
     
  20. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    41,682
    Ratings:
    +16,234
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Believe what you will. It is a common propensity among theists for example. Just note that you continue to offer nothing by way of substantiation. For my part, I believe that you haven't a clue as to what "the ancient Jews" believed, primarily because the extra-Biblical record is frustratingly meager. Maybe I'm wrong. If you have evidence, perhaps from recent DSS research or the works of Philo or Josephus, this would be a very good time to divulge it. If, however, your claim is more at the level of baseless conjecture, perhaps neither of us should take it too seriously.
     
Loading...