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What Constitutes "Person"?

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
If Self-awareness, consciousness, anticipation of futurity, and self-interest be the prerequisites, my cat is a person, but not my vegetative grandma -- or a foetus.
Val, after about six or eight weeks, when the fetus starts developing a brain, it is self-aware, conscious and has self interest, that is why it squirms. It is a person.

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Aborted human fetus, 8 weeks.
But they do not meet the requirements of the dictionary definition.
Dictionaries can be edited. No problem about that. They are not words of any God or Allah, prophet, son, messenger, manifestation or mahdi.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Animals do not have the same capacity to be rational that humans have, but it seems like some animals are more rational than some humans, since not all humans use their capacity.
Yeah, there may be a difference on capacity but not on quality. At least they do not have a confused mind as most humans have. Being able to think beyond reality is a disadvantage also. That creates Gods, Allah, soul, prophets, son, messenger, manifestation, mahdi, heavens, hells, divine kingdoms, ghosts, djinns and 'HEAVENLY MAIDENS'. Flights of imagination.
No, they did not miss out, but they cannot discover elements that are not in THIS world.
If Mendeleev and his successors could not discover the 'spiritual elements', how did you discover them?
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yeah, there may be a difference on capacity but not on quality. At least they do not have a confused mind as most humans have.
You have a point there. That's probably why animals are generally happy as long as they have their basic needs met. Humans are more complex because they have wants and needs.
Being able to think beyond reality is a disadvantage also. That creates Gods, Allah, prophets, son, messenger, manifestation and mahdi. Flights of imagination.
The ability to think beyond what we see in the material reality can be either a disadvantage or an advantage, depending upon what you are thinking about. I'd much rather be thinking about the spiritual world than this physical reality because the latter has brought me mostly pain.
If Mendeleev and his successors could not discover the 'spiritual elements', how did you discover them?
I didn't.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, it hasn't but it also hasn't been demonstrated that they do.
It hasn't been demonstrated that my toaster doesn't have a soul, either, but it wouldn't be reasonable to assume a quality exists till it's shown not to. It works the other way round.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But they do not meet the requirements of the dictionary definition.

person
[ pur-suhn ]
See synonyms for: person / people / persons on Thesaurus.com
noun
a human being, whether an adult or child: The table seats four persons.
a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.
an individual human being who likes or prefers something specified (used in combination): I've never been a cat person.
Sociology. an individual human being, especially with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned by the culture.
Philosophy. a self-conscious or rational being.
the actual self or individual personality of a human being: You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with.
Definition of person | Dictionary.com
A non-specialized dictionary shows the current, common usage of a term. In technical discussion, a more specific, technical definition is useful.
This thread is a discussion of what constitutes personhood, not how the term's used in common parlance.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why would it be reasonable to assume that?
Assuming everything is true till it's demonstrated not to be so is unworkable. Your head would explode.
The reasonable approach is to accept those things for which there's credible evidence, and withhold belief in the unevidenced till evidence appears.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Assuming everything is true till it's demonstrated not to be so is unworkable. Your head would explode.
The reasonable approach is to accept those things for which there's credible evidence, and withhold belief in the unevidenced till evidence appears.
I fully agree.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Val, after about six or eight weeks, when the fetus starts developing a brain, it is self-aware, conscious and has self interest, that is why it squirms. It is a person.
Even six or eight weeks after birth, a baby doesn't grasp even simple concepts like object permanence, ego autonomy, time/futurity, conservation of space or volume, &c.
It doesn't undersand it's a discrete being, separate from its mother, for example, so it's not self aware. It doesn't grasp futurity, either, so without a concept of either self or futurity, how can it have self-interest?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Is it not conscious? If it is conscious, then even by a limited definition, it is a person. My definition of 'personality' extends much beyond it. It is not limited to humans or animals. Prick a fetus and it will respond.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
They do not have analytical abilities.


Nonsense. Squid are very good at analyzing situations and processing them. Many animals have learned to use sticks to, for example, get honey. Others use stones to break things open.

You need to watch a few nature shows.

They also cannot discover the realty of things, such as knowing why they were created, their purpose in life.

Let me know when you know why you were created and what your purpose in life is.


They also cannot believe in God.
Lucky them.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
But they do not meet the requirements of the dictionary definition.

person
[ pur-suhn ]
See synonyms for: person / people / persons on Thesaurus.com
noun
a human being, whether an adult or child: The table seats four persons.
a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.
an individual human being who likes or prefers something specified (used in combination): I've never been a cat person.
Sociology. an individual human being, especially with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned by the culture.
Philosophy. a self-conscious or rational being.
the actual self or individual personality of a human being: You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with.
Definition of person | Dictionary.com
Hmm. Didn't see the word "soul" anywhere in that definition. Are you sure that's the one you want to use?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Nonsense. Squid are very good at analyzing situations and processing them. Many animals have learned to use sticks to, for example, get honey. Others use stones to break things open.

You need to watch a few nature shows.
That is true about animals, but they do not have the same capacity to analyze that humans have. They can only operate within their own sphere whereas humans can analyze anything in the world.
Let me know when you know why you were created and what your purpose in life is.
I already know the purpose for which I was created because that is in the Baha'i Short Obligatory prayer.

I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.

Bahá’u’lláh


Short Obligatory Prayer

If course it is a lot more involved than that because once we know our purpose there is a lot of work to do to fulfill our purpose.
Lucky them.
In a sense yes, they are lucky, because they do not have to measure up to God's standards and sacrifice what they want in so doing.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That tells a lot about your mindset. Are all people rational? Are all ideas rational? OF course not. So why would you believe that all souls are rational?
Having a rational soul does not mean all people are rational, it just means that everyone has the capacity to be rational, to act in accordance with reason or logic. Obviously not everyone uses their capacity, either because emotions get in the way or because they believe irrational things they have been taught and they do not bother to reconsider; they just believe without thinking about why.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Hmm. Didn't see the word "soul" anywhere in that definition. Are you sure that's the one you want to use?
Philosophy. a self-conscious or rational being is the definition I want to use because a soul is a self-conscious rational being.
 
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