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What Constitutes "Person"?

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
All of these are qualities of the rational soul.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings” Some Answered Questions, p. 208

The soul is the sum total of the personality so it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The soul works through the brain and while we are alive on earth in a physical body, but when we die and no longer have a physical body the soul continues to live. It lives forever, and that is why it is called an immortal soul.

The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind remains the same person, and he goes to the spiritual world where he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. The soul takes on some kind of a spiritual form made up of elements that exist in the spiritual world.


Nice claims. Any actual evidence for any of this? You know, something that can be independently verified by a skeptic?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings”

The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind remains the same person, and he goes to the spiritual world where he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. The soul takes on some kind of a spiritual form made up of elements that exist in the spiritual world.
By 19th Century we knew more about it, but people talk like a Rip Van Winkle waking up from sleep after 2000 years. However, I understand, natural for uneducated people to talk like this. What proof you have for what have posted? Human spirit? Are animals not rational? IMHO, they are more rational than many silly humans. Spiritual world? Elements in spiritual world? Did Mendeleev and his successors miss out on some elements?

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ecco

Veteran Member
You are responsible, so you are a person while the dog is not. A dog may try to please its pack or owner in the moment, but that is the limit of its sense of responsibility. It can't be held responsible for most things it does. Its just too scatterbrained to be responsible.
Nonsense. A female dog is very responsible in her duties to feed her pups. In wild settings, hyenas act in packs to find food for themselves and others in the pack and provide security for all members of the pack. Most domestic dogs will play with a child and never bite it. However, they will attack something that is threatening their humans or other dogs in their circle.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
A person, if you are talking of humans, is his/her brain. Some straight-forward, some conniving. When brain stops to work, there is no person, just a mass of flesh and bones. Same is the case with animals, vegetation or even stones. They have a 'personality' even if we do not term them as persons. A pyrite is so different from a shale.

What's the evidence for that?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How do you know that? What evidence do you have that they don't and that we do? Do chimps have a rational soul? How about gorillas? How could we tell?
For one thing, because non-human animals cannot do the things that humans can do. They do not have analytical abilities. They cannot go to college and learn things and they cannot make scientific discoveries. They also cannot discover the realty of things, such as knowing why they were created, their purpose in life. They also cannot believe in God.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings”
Some Answered Questions, p. 208
For that matter, what is a 'rational soul' as opposed to just a 'soul'?
It means the same thing. It is called the rational soul because it has the ability to be rational. Only humans have that ability although some humans don't use it very well. ;)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Nice claims. Any actual evidence for any of this? You know, something that can be independently verified by a skeptic?
The only way it can be verified (the way you can make sure or demonstrate that it is true, accurate, or justified) is by doing an independent investigation, which requires reading about it with an open mind and using your rational mind to determine whether it is true or not.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Based on the qualities you listed, it's clear to me that you haven't spent much time around cats and dogs.

Rationalization is a process in the brain. Is the brain a part of the soul?
I have spent a lot of time around cats, my life has revolved around cats for many years.

The brain is not part of the soul, the soul operates through the brain and the mind, but only in humans.
All animals have a brain but only humans have a soul. This short chapter explains the difference between humans and other animals, according to my beliefs.

55: SOUL, SPIRIT AND MIND
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Are animals not rational? IMHO, they are more rational than many silly humans.
Animals do not have the same capacity to be rational that humans have, but it seems like some animals are more rational than some humans, since not all humans use their capacity..
Spiritual world? Elements in spiritual world? Did Mendeleev and his successors miss out on some elements?
No, they did not miss out, but they cannot discover elements that are not in THIS world.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
I guess you are thinking of this verse:

“Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 153-154

The entire passage is on this link: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXX

I wrote up my own explanation of the passage because people have asked me about it.
Every human being has a soul. The soul is what animates the brain and allows the brain to function, but the soul has to work through the brain while we are live in a physical body in order for us to be able to think intelligently.

Those who have brain dysfunctions still have a soul but the soul is hindered from fully expressing itself because the brain damage interferes with the soul’s functioning. So in the case of Alzheimer’s disease we cannot see the personality of the person express itself, but it is still there, since the soul is the person himself, thus the personality. When that person dies and his soul is freed from the physical body, he will no longer be affected by that brain damage since he will no longer have a brain to hinder the soul from functioning, so the soul will be free to express itself and the personality will be seen.

If someone did not believe there was a soul, they might think that an Alzheimer’s patient had no personality, but the Baha’i belief is that the soul is hidden as if under a bushel unable to express itself, because of the brain disease which interposes itself in between the soul and the body.

To recap what I said before, your soul is responsible for consciousness, but while you are alive in a body, your soul works through the brain. The soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself in various ways. The soul is responsible for the mind, senses and emotions as well as physical sensations, but these are expressed through the body. When the brain is damaged hindrances interpose themselves between the soul and the body and cause physical illness. The body is affected but the soul remains unaffected.

The soul is like the light of the lamp. An external object may interfere with its brightness, but the light itself continues to shine. Or think about the soul as the sun above the clouds. The clouds are simply preventing us from seeing the sunshine, but the sun is shining just as brightly nevertheless.

Every illness afflicting the body of man is an impediment that prevents the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When the soul leaves the body, however, it will be unaffected by any bodily ailments and it will be able to fully manifest its power.
That's about right.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
But this, I find a little lacking; as in yet another Star Trek episode, an atrifically intelligent device was deemed "sentience" after showing the quality of
  • Self-Sacrifice
Are you talking about an episode or a movie? I was thinking about Data, in this regard. The last Next Generation movie.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Let's start with some examples to make some things clear.

We do not consider dogs and cats to be 'persons'. Why?

If we ran into a race of beings from another solar system and they had developed science, art, etc, we would be inclined to say they are 'persons'. Why?

Today it is obvious that all adult humans are 'persons'. In the past, there was debate about the personhood of different races or genders. Why?

It is clear to me that my dog and cat have consciousness, but maybe not self-consciousness. But my dog may well have more intelligence and empathy than many people. She seems to have difficulty with abstract thinking, but so do many humans.

One aspect is that personhood is a *legal* construct, not a scientific one. The notion determines which individuals get certain rights, which is why personhood was denied to other races and creeds in the past. The notion is more who is in the 'in crowd' than anything else, it seems.
I consider dogs and cats persons. They meet my requirements for personhood.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
  • Intelligence
  • Self-awareness
  • Consciousness
  • Self-Sacrifice
  • Empathy
  • Abstract thought
I would exclude intelligence, self sacrifice, empathy and abstract thought.

We see humans every day lacking one or more of these qualities, yet many still consider them people. Even those with advanced Alzheimer's or in a vegetative state are commonly afforded personhood status -- though I would dispute this.

If intelligence and abstract thought be prerequisites, then the dim-witted are not persons.
If Self-awareness, consciousness, anticipation of futurity, and self-interest be the prerequisites, my cat is a person, but not my vegetative grandma -- or a foetus.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I consider dogs and cats persons. They meet my requirements for personhood.
But they do not meet the requirements of the dictionary definition.

person
[ pur-suhn ]
See synonyms for: person / people / persons on Thesaurus.com
noun
a human being, whether an adult or child: The table seats four persons.
a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.
an individual human being who likes or prefers something specified (used in combination): I've never been a cat person.
Sociology. an individual human being, especially with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned by the culture.
Philosophy. a self-conscious or rational being.
the actual self or individual personality of a human being: You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with.
Definition of person | Dictionary.com
 
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