What common ground do people have with "God"?

[Cobblestones]

I've noted that when someone has done something bad or wrong that (generally) they find it easier to forgive people who do the same thing. I have experienced times when I was so stressed out and irrational that I have blown up at people for really petty things but now, when I see someone behaving the same way I generally feel sorry for the person and readily excuse the behaviour provided they aren't actually hurting someone. And I have known people who have overcome addiction who are far more tolerant toward addicts than someone who has never experienced it.

I have also observed that there is a natural barrier between people who have never done anything particularly bad and those who have and that it is because of this incapacity to understand one another that the barrier exists at all.

So, my question is for those who believe in a personal god: If "god" has never committed any sin, is it really at all reasonable to expect that he or she really can understand someone who has? Even if forgiveness is offered freely without some sacrificial lamb, how is it at all possible for a perfect being to have anything remotely close to "fellowship" with someone who is flawed? There is absolutely nothing common between them, is there, and therefore no point of reference by which they can relate to one another?

It seems to me that the only kind of "relationship" one can have with such a deity would simply be cause and effect much in the same way that one can have a "relationship" with a great white shark. Swim with it at your own risk. Anything beyond that seems entirely delusional to me. And yet there are people all over the place who think God is their buddy. How is such an idea even remotely rational considering the nature of what a "relationship" means?

 

[Caladan]

I've noted that when someone has done something bad or wrong that (generally) they find it easier to forgive people who do the same thing. I have experienced times when I was so stressed out and irrational that I have blown up at people for really petty things but now, when I see someone behaving the same way I generally feel sorry for the person and readily excuse the behaviour provided they aren't actually hurting someone. And I have known people who have overcome addiction who are far more tolerant toward addicts than someone who has never experienced it.

I have also observed that there is a natural barrier between people who have never done anything particularly bad and those who have and that it is because of this incapacity to understand one another that the barrier exists at all.

So, my question is for those who believe in a personal god: If "god" has never committed any sin, is it really at all reasonable to expect that he or she really can understand someone who has? Even if forgiveness is offered freely without some sacrificial lamb, how is it at all possible for a perfect being to have anything remotely close to "fellowship" with someone who is flawed? There is absolutely nothing common between them, is there, and therefore no point of reference by which they can relate to one another?

It seems to me that the only kind of "relationship" one can have with such a deity would simply be cause and effect much in the same way that one can have a "relationship" with a great white shark. Swim with it at your own risk. Anything beyond that seems entirely delusional to me. And yet there are people all over the place who think God is their buddy. How is such an idea even remotely rational considering the nature of what a "relationship" means?

How persistent it is, this demand that our gods be perfect. The Greeks were much more reasonable about such things.

 

[Cobblestones]

How persistent it is, this demand that our gods be perfect. The Greeks were much more reasonable about such things.

I agree! I could hang out with Dionysus all day long!

 

[Beta]

So, my question is for those who believe in a personal god: If "god" has never committed any sin, is it really at all reasonable to expect that he or she really can understand someone who has? Even if forgiveness is offered freely without some sacrificial lamb, how is it at all possible for a perfect being to have anything remotely close to "fellowship" with someone who is flawed? There is absolutely nothing common between them, is there, and therefore no point of reference by which they can relate to one another?

So you think one has to commit evil in order to understand it ? You don't think that 'experiencing evil' from others counts ? How about Jesus - is not HE a perfect example of suffering evil at the hands of ignorant men ? As the Son of God Jesus is the express image of his Father so I would say that God has plenty experience of what a perfect Being can suffer , indeed has suffered from disobedient self-righteous people.

 

[Madhuri]

The concept of sin is man made. Each of us is an expression of the Supreme so there is no question of His understand anybody or anything.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

So you think one has to commit evil in order to understand it ? You don't think that 'experiencing evil' from others counts ? How about Jesus - is not HE a perfect example of suffering evil at the hands of ignorant men ? As the Son of God Jesus is the express image of his Father so I would say that God has plenty experience of what a perfect Being can suffer , indeed has suffered from disobedient self-righteous people.

If Jesus was a perfect being :/

I think cobblestone has a good point. Personally I find it much easier relate to the idea of someone who was never perfect (whatever that is), so might actually understand what its like.

The Taoist Immortals appeal as deity types. They were all oh-so-human screw ups, rejects and eccentrics before their big realisations, rather like Catholic saints. One of them even transcended only to screw up so badly they had to start over again.

 

[Kerr]

Not a theist, but I know that someone with good empathy can understand others even if they have not done what that person does. Of course experience can definatly contribute to that understanding, but it is not required for the understanding itself.

EDIT:

How persistent it is, this demand that our gods be perfect. The Greeks were much more reasonable about such things.

As a note, I am not sure I have seen any deity that is perfect. God appears to have flaws as well, but people do not seem to consider them flaws because he is God... which is kind of weird from my point of view, lol. Of course it is fully possible I do not know what I am talking about since I have never read the Bible and do generally not understand religion at all .

 

[Beta]

God says we are to be perfected - how is that possible if our teacher (Jesus Christ) were himself imperfect ? Or what would communicating with other imperfect people achieve ? nothing but more confusion !

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

God says we are to be perfected ...

Where?

 

[Commoner]

God says we are to be perfected - how is that possible if our teacher (Jesus Christ) were himself imperfect ? Or what would communicating with other imperfect people achieve ? nothing but more confusion !

I think you might have just caused a bit of confusion yourself right now. :help:

 

[Storm]

How persistent it is, this demand that our gods be perfect. The Greeks were much more reasonable about such things.

Not all of us succumb to it.

I can kind of understand the urge, though. It's a nice thought, so long as one doesn't consider questions like the op.

The Taoist Immortals appeal as deity types. They were all oh-so-human screw ups, rejects and eccentrics before their big realisations, rather like Catholic saints. One of them even transcended only to screw up so badly they had to start over again.

This sounds like a great story. I don't suppose it's conveniently online?

 

[Storm]

I've noted that when someone has done something bad or wrong that (generally) they find it easier to forgive people who do the same thing. I have experienced times when I was so stressed out and irrational that I have blown up at people for really petty things but now, when I see someone behaving the same way I generally feel sorry for the person and readily excuse the behaviour provided they aren't actually hurting someone. And I have known people who have overcome addiction who are far more tolerant toward addicts than someone who has never experienced it.

I have also observed that there is a natural barrier between people who have never done anything particularly bad and those who have and that it is because of this incapacity to understand one another that the barrier exists at all.

So, my question is for those who believe in a personal god: If "god" has never committed any sin, is it really at all reasonable to expect that he or she really can understand someone who has? Even if forgiveness is offered freely without some sacrificial lamb, how is it at all possible for a perfect being to have anything remotely close to "fellowship" with someone who is flawed? There is absolutely nothing common between them, is there, and therefore no point of reference by which they can relate to one another?

It seems to me that the only kind of "relationship" one can have with such a deity would simply be cause and effect much in the same way that one can have a "relationship" with a great white shark. Swim with it at your own risk. Anything beyond that seems entirely delusional to me. And yet there are people all over the place who think God is their buddy. How is such an idea even remotely rational considering the nature of what a "relationship" means?

Well, I can see the rebuttal that God's perfection includes perfect compassion.

 

[Katzpur]

Well, we are His offspring, His spirit sons and daughters. We were created in His image, after His likeness. I believe it would be accurate for us to say we're essentially the same "species" as God. He has just attained perfection and we haven't.

 

[Storm]

Well, we are His offspring, His spirit sons and daughters. We were created in His image, after His likeness. I believe it would be accurate for us to say we're essentially the same "species" as God. He has just attained perfection and we haven't.

Oh yeah, there's a conversation worth having here!

Since you're actually Christian, what do you think of my "perfect compassion" take?

 

[Alceste]

I actually suspect people's gods are very much like themselves. I lay my theory out on another thread, so I'll just go plagiarize myself and edit out the irrelevant stuff...

I consider people's personal deities to be archetypes representing their own best (and / or worst) personal qualities magnified.

If a person is well-adjusted, decent and content, their god concept is likely to be as compassionate, forgiving and kind as they wish they could be all the time. If a person is angry, vindictive and hateful, so will their god be - punishing all the people they wish they could hurt.

Since a personal relationship with God is the objective for most monotheists, people believe in a God they can relate to. Whatever flaws they have, if they are aware of them, God does not have them. If they are not aware of them, their God also has them.

I don't think gods from polytheistic traditions are so open to interpretation because people can generally find a god or goddess they can relate to fairly easily, and also because polytheistic Gods are much better defined / described in the mythic tradition.

 

[Katzpur]

Oh yeah, there's a conversation worth having here!

Since you're actually Christian, what do you think of my "perfect compassion" take?

Hi, Storm. Well, I'm really pressed for time today, but a quick glance through this thread left me kind of confused as to what your "perfect compassion" take actually is. Maybe I just didn't read thoroughly enough. I'd love to comment, but could you fill me in with a few more details or direct me to a specific post or something? Thanks.

 

[Storm]

Hi, Storm. Well, I'm really pressed for time today, but a quick glance through this thread left me kind of confused as to what your "perfect compassion" take actually is. Maybe I just didn't read thoroughly enough. I'd love to comment, but could you fill me in with a few more details or direct me to a specific post or something? Thanks.

Well, I think I made it obvious that "perfect compassion" is not among my own virtues.

Anyway, #15 was the post I was hoping to get your thoughts on:

[To the OP] Well, I can see the rebuttal that God's perfection includes perfect compassion.

 

[Mister Emu]

I've noted that when someone has done something bad or wrong that (generally) they find it easier to forgive people who do the same thing.

As you note, that isn't always the case, people can be empathetic/compassionate without having done the act themselves...

So, my question is for those who believe in a personal god: If "god" has never committed any sin, is it really at all reasonable to expect that he or she really can understand someone who has?

Why wouldn't it be? Psychologists understand the workings of mentally disturbed minds without, hopefully, being mentally disturbed themselves...

There is absolutely nothing common between them, is there, and therefore no point of reference by which they can relate to one another?

Even assuming one cannot understand something without acting it, people who have never done something terribly awful cannot understand those who have for instance, why would that ensure there are no common ground... It would be possible for murderer and I could become great friends over our mutual love of books...

Even if God could not understand the act of committing sin, a relationship could be formed over a love of good for instance... or their mutual love for each other

Anything beyond that seems entirely delusional to me.

Why? I just don't see it. Persons in a relationship don't have to be perfectly alike...

Where?

Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

It's a nice thought, so long as one doesn't consider questions like the op.

Or even when you do

 

[Beta]

Where?

Mat.5v48,
Eph.4v13,
2Tim.3v16,17,
Heb.12v23, and many more.

 

[cardero]

Beta: How about Jesus - is not HE a perfect example of suffering evil at the hands of ignorant men ?

Jesus has an arrest record.