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what causes something to be living

Thief

Rogue Theologian
No denial of spirit. To me spirit is those ceaseless and formless fundamental forces in nature. That which animates all things. It exists naturally.

But you're leaving out the line drawn.
'Nature' animates a great many things...most of it dead.

I don't believe chemistry is the source of spirit.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
But you're leaving out the line drawn.
'Nature' animates a great many things...most of it dead.

I don't believe chemistry is the source of spirit.

I agree, chemistry is not the source, it is the result.

I simply do not believe in the need to draw any lines. It is more a fine blend the way I see it.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I agree, chemistry is not the source, it is the result.

I simply do not believe in the need to draw any lines. It is more a fine blend the way I see it.

Ok....I can go with this....

So now we might go on to say what causes something to be living....
in spiritual terms?

If chemistry is not the source....shall we move in that direction?
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Ok....I can go with this....

So now we might go on to say what causes something to be living....
in spiritual terms?

If chemistry is not the source....shall we move in that direction?

It is the fundamental forces in nature that cause all those chemical interactions to occur which lead to the emergence of lifelike forms. It is those underlying forces that I consider to be the Animating Factor within all things. They are both ceaseless and formless much like a "spirit" that animates all of existence, all matter. I do not believe in the "supernatural". To me all things or forces that exist whether known or unknown to science exist by virtue that they are completely natural to exist. There do exist spirit-like things as far as I can tell, but they are simply natural unknowns to science, not supernatural.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
It is the fundamental forces in nature that cause all those chemical interactions to occur which lead to the emergence of lifelike forms. It is those underlying forces that I consider to be the Animating Factor within all things. They are both ceaseless and formless much like a "spirit" that animates all of existence, all matter. I do not believe in the "supernatural". To me all things or forces that exist whether known or unknown to science exist by virtue that they are completely natural to exist. There do exist spirit-like things as far as I can tell, but they are simply natural unknowns to science, not supernatural.

Well this didn't help to display the line drawn.

If heat could be a form of life, fire would be our form.
All that is missing would be the 'obvious intent'....the display of thoughtful action.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Well this didn't help to display the line drawn.

If heat could be a form of life, fire would be our form.
All that is missing would be the 'obvious intent'....the display of thoughtful action.

So if there was such a line to be drawn, it would not be between living and non-living matter, but rather it would be between what distinguishes those things which are very lifelike from those things which are not very lifelike. As I have said before, it is the complexity of chemical interactions that make one thing more lifelike than another. As the first primordial more-lifelike forms developed on earth they had but one difference from those less-lifelike forms...they were more complex.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
So if there was such a line to be drawn, it would not be between living and non-living matter, but rather it would be between what distinguishes those things which are very lifelike from those things which are not very lifelike. As I have said before, it is the complexity of chemical interactions that make one thing more lifelike than another. As the first primordial more-lifelike forms developed on earth they had but one difference from those less-lifelike forms...they were more complex.

Next step...deny spirit.

If you cannot deny spirit then chemistry is not what makes something ...'alive'.

If you insist there is no spirit then all of life is chemistry in 'various complications'.....and a mystery not having a spiritual prompt.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Next step...deny spirit.

If you cannot deny spirit then chemistry is not what makes something ...'alive'.

If you insist there is no spirit then all of life is chemistry in 'various complications'.....and a mystery not having a spiritual prompt.

If you think there is some part of the picture that I am missing or that I am somehow unaware of then you wrong. I practice shamanism and I know very well there is a spiritual side to things. I also do know however that this "spirit" world is not of supernatural origin. It is prefectly natural and exists as part of those underlying fundamental forces....that which is both ceaseless and formless.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I think biological viruses can provide clues to the definition of life as they skirt the line defining both that of life and of non-living matter.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
If you think there is some part of the picture that I am missing or that I am somehow unaware of then you wrong. I practice shamanism and I know very well there is a spiritual side to things. I also do know however that this "spirit" world is not of supernatural origin. It is prefectly natural and exists as part of those underlying fundamental forces....that which is both ceaseless and formless.

There it is.....spirit...not of spiritual origin....

No Creator God in your belief?
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
So what form did a story have before it was created? Or how about the high C note I just blew (created) on my trumpet

The thoughts for the story were initially generated by the chemical interactions in your brain. The high C note was generated by forcing air through an instrument. Everything is cause and effect, action/reaction.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
The thoughts for the story were initially generated by the chemical interactions in your brain. The high C note was generated by forcing air through an instrument. Everything is cause and effect, action/reaction.
I don't know if you're purposely evading my point or simply missed it.
I thought it would be clear that my reply to your.

Nothing is ever "created", it only changes form.
focused on "it only changes form," which is why I said
Skwim said:
So what form did a story have before it was created? Or how about the high C note I just blew (created) on my trumpet

But to re-phrase:
1) What form did a story have before it was changed into its present form?
2) What form did the high C note I just blew on my trumpet have before it was changed into its present form?​
IOW. What form did each have before they were generated? Not how each was generated.

SO:
1) Before the story was generated it had the following form: _________________fill in the blank______________________________ .

2) Before I generated the high C on my trumpet it had the following form: ______________fill in the blank_________________________________ .
 
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Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
I don't know if you're purposely evading my point or simply missed it.
I thought it would be clear that my reply to your.

focused on "it only changes form," which is why I said


But to re-phrase:
1) What form did a story have before it was changed into its present form?
2) What form did the high C note I just blew on my trumpet have before it was changed into its present form?​
IOW. What form did each have before they were generated? Not how each was generated.

SO:
1) Before the story was generated it had the following form: _________________fill in the blank______________________________ .

2) Before I generated the high C on my trumpet it had the following form: ______________fill in the blank_________________________________ .


1. energy

2. energy
 
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