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What Can We Say About the Big Bang?

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
So I'm not a physicist, so I hoping there are others who can clear up misconceptions people might have about the Big Bang.

So what do I think I know...

There was no "bang". IOW there was no explosion. Just a rapid expansion of what has been termed the singularity.

Why is this accepted, this expansion of the universe?
Because we can see the rest of the universe moving away from us. Two things, we can tell by the color shift when objects ion space are moving away from us and at what speed. The farther away from us the faster they are moving away from us.

Second, what is beyond the edge of the universe? Well, we don't know. The edge of the universe is not the edge of the universe. It is just as far as we can see before, relatively, objects are traveling away from us faster than the speed of light. The light of these objects will never reach the earth so we will never be able to see anything past this point.

I presume the basis of the model of the singularity is that we see all of these objects is space moving away from us. Conceptually, reversing time every object in space gets closer and closer together until everything is compacted into this singularity. Mathematically, not that I'm a mathematician either, this has been validated to just a fraction of a second after the occurrence of the "Big Bang". Prior to this, no one can make any claims about what happened. Any theories about what happened before this point are unsupported speculation.

That kind of exhausts what I think I know.

So I invite others to post what they think they know about the "Big Bang" and maybe we can clear up some of our misconceptions.
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
So I'm not a physicist, so I hoping there are others who can clear up misconceptions people might have about the Big Bang.

So what do I think I know...

There was no "bang". IOW there was no explosion. Just a rapid expansion of what has been termed the singularity.

Why is this accepted, this expansion of the universe?
Because we can see the rest of the universe moving away from us. Two things, we can tell by the color shift when objects ion space are moving away from us and at what speed. The farther away from us the faster they are moving away from us.

Second, what is beyond the edge of the universe? Well, we don't know. The edge of the universe is not the edge of the universe. It is just as far as we can see before, relatively, objects are traveling away from us faster than the speed of light. The light of these objects will never reach the earth so we will never be able to see anything past this point.

I presume the basis of the model of the singularity is that we see all of these objects is space moving away from us. Conceptually, reversing time every object in space gets closer and closer together until everything is compacted into this singularity. Mathematically, not that I'm a mathematician either, this has been validated to just a fraction of a second after the occurrence of the "Big Bang". Prior to this, no one can make any claims about what happened. Any theories about what happened before this point are unsupported speculation.

That kind of exhausts what I think I know.

So I invite others to post what they think they know about the "Big Bang" and maybe we can clear up some of our misconceptions.

Yes many (many) misconceptions, including some of the things you said. With all due respect, I think people here would be better served by learning about this through other routes. Yeah I know this is a discussion forum but on technical matters like this you are not going to get a lot of clarity in this format. IMHO.

WMAP Big Bang Concepts

The Big Bang | Science Mission Directorate
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Yes many (many) misconceptions, including some of the things you said. With all due respect, I think people here would be better served by learning about this through other routes. Yeah I know this is a discussion forum but on technical matters like this you are not going to get a lot of clarity in this format. IMHO.

WMAP Big Bang Concepts

The Big Bang | Science Mission Directorate

Thank you for the links. It confirmed at least some of what I said so I found it helpful.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
So I'm not a physicist, so I hoping there are others who can clear up misconceptions people might have about the Big Bang.

So what do I think I know...

There was no "bang". IOW there was no explosion. Just a rapid expansion of what has been termed the singularity.

Why is this accepted, this expansion of the universe?
Because we can see the rest of the universe moving away from us. Two things, we can tell by the color shift when objects ion space are moving away from us and at what speed. The farther away from us the faster they are moving away from us.

Second, what is beyond the edge of the universe? Well, we don't know. The edge of the universe is not the edge of the universe. It is just as far as we can see before, relatively, objects are traveling away from us faster than the speed of light. The light of these objects will never reach the earth so we will never be able to see anything past this point.

I presume the basis of the model of the singularity is that we see all of these objects is space moving away from us. Conceptually, reversing time every object in space gets closer and closer together until everything is compacted into this singularity. Mathematically, not that I'm a mathematician either, this has been validated to just a fraction of a second after the occurrence of the "Big Bang". Prior to this, no one can make any claims about what happened. Any theories about what happened before this point are unsupported speculation.

That kind of exhausts what I think I know.

So I invite others to post what they think they know about the "Big Bang" and maybe we can clear up some of our misconceptions.

OK, there is a LOT to unpack here and I'm not sure one post will do what needs to be done.

First, the physics.

In 1915, Einstein proposed his new theory of gravity. It is called general relativity and is a vast improvement on Newton's theory of gravity.

When general relativity is applied to a 'universe' of uniform density and the same in all directions at all points, the mathematics gives solutions that have very specific characteristics, but among them is that they are either expanding over time or contracting over time. Which happens depends on the density of the mass/energy. This is the basic Big Bang theory.

Hubble discovered the existence of galaxies other than our own (the Milky Way), by figuring out a way to measure distances to those other galaxies. Among the things he discovered is that the farther galaxies have a larger red-shift in their spectra than the nearby ones. The specific relation between distance and red-shift is what was predicted by general relativity.

Later, thermodynamics was added to the model. This allowed the prediction and characteristics of the cosmic background radiation. It also, using the known rules of nuclear reactions, allowed the prediction of the abundances of the lighter elements (hydrogen, helium, lithium, beryllium, boron). These abundances can be detected through spectra and were verified (although there is some issue with lithium, which could have been produced later)

This lead to the 'hot' Big bang theory. based on what we can observe, this describes the early universe very well from the time when nuclear reactions started to predominate to the present. By those models, this would have been from the first second or so to the present.

Now, it turns out that general relativity predicts the existence of 'singularities' in many situations. So it is important to understand what a singularity is and what it means. In the case of the Big Bang, the singularity happens as we approach the 'starting point'. But all that it means to be a singularity is that some important quantity goes unbounded. In the case of the BB, the density of the universe, as well as the curvature of spacetime is what gets large. Another aspect is that it is impossible to *define* time past a certain stage.

In this sense, asking what is 'before the Big Bang' is similar to asking what is 'south of the South Pole'. The geometry of the situation itself prevents the question from having an answer: there simply isn't a 'south of the south pole'. Nor, in the standard BB model is there a 'before the BB'.

The singularity is NOT A THING. it is a description of what happens as we approach a certain situation. In the case of the BB, the singularity is what happens as we approach the 'south pole' of the BB.

Next, there is no 'edge' to the universe. There is a limit to what we can *see* because light doesn't travel infinitely fast and the universe had a beginning (in the above sense). But in the BB model, every place in the universe 'looks like' every other place: the density is uniform in all directions everywhere.

When people ask where the 'center of the universe' is, thinking that the Big Bang happened there, they are making a fundamental error in understanding. ALL points are similar. ALL points are 'centers of expansion'. And, in fact, the expansion is exactly what is required so that the distance-redshift relation we see is exactly what *any* other galaxy anywhere would see. NO point is the center. There is no 'edge'.

An analogy of sorts is to imagine that latitude on the Earth represents time: more northern latitudes are later times. And a latitude circle represents 'space at that time'.

The South Pole in this analogy would be like the Big Bang: there is no 'before' and space is expanding (the latitude circles are growing) as we move north of the north pole. Of course, on the Earth, the equator would be a 'maximum expansion' time and the North Pole would represent a 'Big Crunch'. If the universe were denser than it is a similar Big Crunch would be in our future.

To modify the analogy slightly, imagine spacetime to be a cone. The vertex of the cone is the 'Big Bang' singularity. As we move away from that vertex, the circular cross sections expand and continue to do so. this represents the expansion of space.

Now, the actual BB model has three dimensions of space and one of time instead of one of each, but the geometrical aspects are analogous.

Now, it turns out that the cosmic background radiation was actually discovered decades after it was predicted. It has some *very* specific properties, including uniformity across the sky and a very precise temperature (Black Body radiation). This radiation is amazingly uniform: to one part in 100,000 across the sky in all directions. This is one thing the hot BB model predicted that no other model has been able to explain. Nothing else we know can produce that level of uniformity in all directions.

Furthermore, even though it is amazingly uniform, there *are* small variations in this background radiation. And *those* small fluctuations *also* match the predictions. You see, the background radiation is a type of 'afterglow' of the time when the universe cooled enough to become transparent. Since that time the light has red-shifted by a factor of 11,000.

The fluctuations we see in that background are the exact size needed to product the large scale structure of the universe, like galaxy clusters. We are seeing the small variances that grew to be large structures like our own Milky Way.

And, again, these variations precisely match the previously postulated models of a hot Big Bang.

I can go on for quite a while, but this seems like a good place to stop for now.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Next, there are *extensions* to the standard Big Bang model.

The most famous one is that of an inflationary epoch prior to that of nucleosynthesis. During this time, it is proposed that the universe expanded exponentially fast, going through many doubling times, before setting down to the 'ordinary' expansion phase of the standard Big Bang.

This inflationary stage was proposed to explain some aspects of uniformity and flatness. At this point, this is commonly accepted, but still not completely proved. However, the evidence isn't easy to acquire, so we are waiting on some good instruments to come online for a definite answer is possible on this matter. The inflationary scenario predicts a certain type of subatomic particle called the 'inflaton' (naturally). The properties of this inflaton are similar in many ways to the Higg's boson. I tis even possible the Higg's boson *is* the inflaton. We just don't know.

Next, and much more controversially, is the issue of quantum gravity. Here's the problem. We know that quantum mechanics is part of how our universe works. But general relativity and quantum mechanics have not fit well together into a unified whole. This is a problem because in the *very* early universe, around Planck's time into the current expansion phase, we *know* quantum effects will be relevant for the gravity, and hence in how the universe works at that time.

So there are several proposals for quantum gravity, none of them in good favor. String theory is probably the most popular, but has had issues lately in being able to predict *anything* at all. It is mathematically nice, but doesn't appear to be a useful physical theory. Loop Quantum gravity is another contender, but it has a number of technical issues.

And, the problem is that it is *possible* that quantum effects can 'smooth out' the singularities of general relativity, allowing for time to be extended past the Big Bang (which becomes merely a 'phase of maximum density'). partly because of this, I try to be careful and only talk about 'seconds into the current expansion phase'.

The upshot of this is that we simply don't know what happens earlier than about 10^-30 seconds into the current expansion phase. We know quantum gravity will be important, but we don't have a good, tested theory of quantum gravity. It is *possible* the singularity remains and time cannot be extended further. It is *possible* the singularity is removed and time is infinite into the past (along with the universe). It is *possible* that our 'universe' is one of many in a multiverse where regions undergo inflation and expansion like our universe.

And, unfortunately, we aren't likely to resolve some of these issues for a long time. The energies involved are *way* beyond anything we can do in our particle accelerators. Some theories have beautiful math, but at this point none has made any predictions that are testable, so they are considered by everyone to be 'speculation'.

So what we *can* say is that the 'standard' model is very good past a fraction of a second into the current expansion phase. Prior to that, it seems likely there was an inflationary stage. And prior to that there be monsters.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
So I invite others to post what they think they know about the "Big Bang" and maybe we can clear up some of our misconceptions.
The "Big Bang" is a model that has no observed data prior to the CMBR.
Everything we think we know about the first 380,000 years of our universe is derived from interpolating the laws of physics back to a point where those laws no longer apply. The model fits what we see pretty well and there is no contender to date.
 

Prim969

Member
So I'm not a physicist, so I hoping there are others who can clear up misconceptions people might have about the Big Bang.

So what do I think I know...

There was no "bang". IOW there was no explosion. Just a rapid expansion of what has been termed the singularity.

Why is this accepted, this expansion of the universe?
Because we can see the rest of the universe moving away from us. Two things, we can tell by the color shift when objects ion space are moving away from us and at what speed. The farther away from us the faster they are moving away from us.

Second, what is beyond the edge of the universe? Well, we don't know. The edge of the universe is not the edge of the universe. It is just as far as we can see before, relatively, objects are traveling away from us faster than the speed of light. The light of these objects will never reach the earth so we will never be able to see anything past this point.

I presume the basis of the model of the singularity is that we see all of these objects is space moving away from us. Conceptually, reversing time every object in space gets closer and closer together until everything is compacted into this singularity. Mathematically, not that I'm a mathematician either, this has been validated to just a fraction of a second after the occurrence of the "Big Bang". Prior to this, no one can make any claims about what happened. Any theories about what happened before this point are unsupported speculation.

That kind of exhausts what I think I know.

So I invite others to post what they think they know about the "Big Bang" and maybe we can clear up some of our misconceptions.
Nakosis not so sure about the Big Bang in space. It still remains a theory and may be some outdated especially when it comes to the shifting viewpoints amongst science. Still I do think the Big Bang is most wonderfully established here apon the Earth
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
OK, there is a LOT to unpack here and I'm not sure one post will do what needs to be done.

First, the physics.

In 1915, Einstein proposed his new theory of gravity. It is called general relativity and is a vast improvement on Newton's theory of gravity.

When general relativity is applied to a 'universe' of uniform density and the same in all directions at all points, the mathematics gives solutions that have very specific characteristics, but among them is that they are either expanding over time or contracting over time. Which happens depends on the density of the mass/energy. This is the basic Big Bang theory.

Hubble discovered the existence of galaxies other than our own (the Milky Way), by figuring out a way to measure distances to those other galaxies. Among the things he discovered is that the farther galaxies have a larger red-shift in their spectra than the nearby ones. The specific relation between distance and red-shift is what was predicted by general relativity.

Later, thermodynamics was added to the model. This allowed the prediction and characteristics of the cosmic background radiation. It also, using the known rules of nuclear reactions, allowed the prediction of the abundances of the lighter elements (hydrogen, helium, lithium, beryllium, boron). These abundances can be detected through spectra and were verified (although there is some issue with lithium, which could have been produced later)

This lead to the 'hot' Big bang theory. based on what we can observe, this describes the early universe very well from the time when nuclear reactions started to predominate to the present. By those models, this would have been from the first second or so to the present.

Now, it turns out that general relativity predicts the existence of 'singularities' in many situations. So it is important to understand what a singularity is and what it means. In the case of the Big Bang, the singularity happens as we approach the 'starting point'. But all that it means to be a singularity is that some important quantity goes unbounded. In the case of the BB, the density of the universe, as well as the curvature of spacetime is what gets large. Another aspect is that it is impossible to *define* time past a certain stage.

In this sense, asking what is 'before the Big Bang' is similar to asking what is 'south of the South Pole'. The geometry of the situation itself prevents the question from having an answer: there simply isn't a 'south of the south pole'. Nor, in the standard BB model is there a 'before the BB'.

The singularity is NOT A THING. it is a description of what happens as we approach a certain situation. In the case of the BB, the singularity is what happens as we approach the 'south pole' of the BB.

Next, there is no 'edge' to the universe. There is a limit to what we can *see* because light doesn't travel infinitely fast and the universe had a beginning (in the above sense). But in the BB model, every place in the universe 'looks like' every other place: the density is uniform in all directions everywhere.

When people ask where the 'center of the universe' is, thinking that the Big Bang happened there, they are making a fundamental error in understanding. ALL points are similar. ALL points are 'centers of expansion'. And, in fact, the expansion is exactly what is required so that the distance-redshift relation we see is exactly what *any* other galaxy anywhere would see. NO point is the center. There is no 'edge'.

An analogy of sorts is to imagine that latitude on the Earth represents time: more northern latitudes are later times. And a latitude circle represents 'space at that time'.

The South Pole in this analogy would be like the Big Bang: there is no 'before' and space is expanding (the latitude circles are growing) as we move north of the north pole. Of course, on the Earth, the equator would be a 'maximum expansion' time and the North Pole would represent a 'Big Crunch'. If the universe were denser than it is a similar Big Crunch would be in our future.

To modify the analogy slightly, imagine spacetime to be a cone. The vertex of the cone is the 'Big Bang' singularity. As we move away from that vertex, the circular cross sections expand and continue to do so. this represents the expansion of space.

Now, the actual BB model has three dimensions of space and one of time instead of one of each, but the geometrical aspects are analogous.

Now, it turns out that the cosmic background radiation was actually discovered decades after it was predicted. It has some *very* specific properties, including uniformity across the sky and a very precise temperature (Black Body radiation). This radiation is amazingly uniform: to one part in 100,000 across the sky in all directions. This is one thing the hot BB model predicted that no other model has been able to explain. Nothing else we know can produce that level of uniformity in all directions.

Furthermore, even though it is amazingly uniform, there *are* small variations in this background radiation. And *those* small fluctuations *also* match the predictions. You see, the background radiation is a type of 'afterglow' of the time when the universe cooled enough to become transparent. Since that time the light has red-shifted by a factor of 11,000.

The fluctuations we see in that background are the exact size needed to product the large scale structure of the universe, like galaxy clusters. We are seeing the small variances that grew to be large structures like our own Milky Way.

And, again, these variations precisely match the previously postulated models of a hot Big Bang.

I can go on for quite a while, but this seems like a good place to stop for now.

That is a good summary of existing BB theory. One of the problems is General Relativity uses mass as the tangible variable that impact space-time. The more mass we have, the more space-time will contract. Yet the expansion of the universe is currently based on unproven things like dark energy, which is has never been seen in the lab, to know if it is real. We ignore the movement of mass through space for a unicorn.

If I was explode a large, that was contracting local space-time; neutron star, so it splits in half the, the divided mass will cause the local pace-time to expand relative to the original state. This can be shown in the lab. This does no need anything that is unprovable in the lab. A big bang that moves its original mass through space, will give the same affect as the expansion, but without needing to add a unicorn variable.

The problem is the current theory cannot go before the BB, all the way to the origin. This is like plotting a curve on a graph where you do not know the (0,0,0,0) point. The slope of the curve may be fine, but it may not be the correct graph, since the correct graph needs to touch the origin. The current grab floats above the origin and needs unicorns to compensate.

One way to address the origin is to use some simple special relativity analysis. If we plug the speed of light into the three equations for mass, distance and time of SR, we get infinity. At C, space-time times become discontinuous. Infinity is not a tangible thing, but rather is a discontinuity with infinite. This implies that at the speed of light, space-time is discontinuous. This is consistent with the assumption that t=0 at the big bang, but not before it. The clock does not start until a discontinuity ends.

Photons move at the speed of light and do not age; step out of time, or else the red shift would not mean anything, since aging alone would allow photons to change even without motion. Their wavelength would not change unless acted upon by an outside affect.

If space-time was discontinuous, that means that space and time would no longer be connected. One could move in time without the constraints of space and move in space without the constraint of time. When space-time is connected both variables need to work together. This is when we start the clock at t=0.

Before that, if one could move in space without the constant of time, one would be omnipresent. If you could move in time, without the constraint of space you could know what is going on everywhere simultaneously. This is omniscience. It is interesting that these two concepts, logical consistent with a discontinuity in space-time, have historically been given as attributes of God.

The reason omnipresence is possible, is if you were traveling at the speed of light, the universe would look like a point-instant in your reference; singularity. As a singularity, you could see the entire universe, in an instant, simultaneously, since everything overlaps as a point. You can focus on the point, and you see all, know all and be everywhere.

To go from the discontinuity in space-time, to unified space-time so time can integrate with space; clock starts, so we can notice sequential change in space and time, we need to slow the speed of light equivalent to a reference below a speed of light equivalent.

One way to make this permanent is to create mass. Mass cannot go the speed of light. Mass creates a discontinuity in the discontinuity at C. It places limits on and integrates space and time, as defined by GR.

The way the "God reference" at C could do this, is with a microscope. If we look under a microscope, the mini universe of microscopic things appears to expand as we zoom in. It is not really expanding. This is a reference change affect. The space-time reference of the slide does not change, simply by looking at something through the microscope, even if the movement closer makes the legs of the bacteria appear to speed up.

This model suggest that space-time and the discontinuity of space-time both exist at the same time. There is extra time, distance and even mass potential that is superimposed upon space-time, from the discontinuity reference. For example, acceleration due to gravity and any force has the units of d/t/t or it is two parts time and one part distance; space-time plus time. The Heinsberg uncertainty principle can be modeled as space-time plus extra distance potential.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The "Big Bang" is a model that has no observed data prior to the CMBR.
Everything we think we know about the first 380,000 years of our universe is derived from interpolating the laws of physics back to a point where those laws no longer apply. The model fits what we see pretty well and there is no contender to date.

Not completely accurate. the abundances of the light elements probe times well before the formation of the CMBR. Also, the variations in the CMBR also probe much earlier times. For example, there is a weak neutrino signal that probes back to the time of equilibrium of neutrinos and photons.

If you want to dismiss this as 'interpolation', then any analysis of the CMBR is also interpolation: using the laws of physics as we know them to analyze what we can detect.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
So I'm not a physicist, so I hoping there are others who can clear up misconceptions people might have about the Big Bang.

So what do I think I know...

There was no "bang". IOW there was no explosion. Just a rapid expansion of what has been termed the singularity.

Why is this accepted, this expansion of the universe?
Because we can see the rest of the universe moving away from us. Two things, we can tell by the color shift when objects ion space are moving away from us and at what speed. The farther away from us the faster they are moving away from us.

Second, what is beyond the edge of the universe? Well, we don't know. The edge of the universe is not the edge of the universe. It is just as far as we can see before, relatively, objects are traveling away from us faster than the speed of light. The light of these objects will never reach the earth so we will never be able to see anything past this point.

I presume the basis of the model of the singularity is that we see all of these objects is space moving away from us. Conceptually, reversing time every object in space gets closer and closer together until everything is compacted into this singularity. Mathematically, not that I'm a mathematician either, this has been validated to just a fraction of a second after the occurrence of the "Big Bang". Prior to this, no one can make any claims about what happened. Any theories about what happened before this point are unsupported speculation.

That kind of exhausts what I think I know.

So I invite others to post what they think they know about the "Big Bang" and maybe we can clear up some of our misconceptions.
One way to clear up the misconceptions of "a Big Bang" is to study the most elaborated Stories of Creation in where it is stated that the Universe is eternal - and in this Universe, everything undergoes an eternal process of formation, dissolution and re-formation.

That is: Everything is cyclical with NO beginning and NO end.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
That is a good summary of existing BB theory. One of the problems is General Relativity uses mass as the tangible variable that impact space-time. The more mass we have, the more space-time will contract. Yet the expansion of the universe is currently based on unproven things like dark energy, which is has never been seen in the lab, to know if it is real. We ignore the movement of mass through space for a unicorn.
Agreed. LOTS of modern cosmological assumptions are based on unicorns - which isn´t even white. All kinds of "cosmological dark this and that" just proves a general lack of understanding.

On the surface, it seems that modern cosmology can explain everything, but under it all, modern cosmology cannot agree in finding a common explanation on the very basics of fundamental forces.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
One way to clear up the misconceptions of "a Big Bang" is to study the most elaborated Stories of Creation in where it is stated that the Universe is eternal - and in this Universe, everything undergoes an eternal process of formation, dissolution and re-formation.

That is: Everything is cyclical with NO beginning and NO end.

As far as I am able to tell, there is nothing in the BB model that contradicts this idea.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Since dark energy was mentioned, and dark matter is often confused with dark energy, I should at least discuss those a bit.

When Einstein first developed his theory of general relativity, he realized that it implied a universe which either expanded or contracted: a static universe was not allowed by his equations.

But, Einstein had a preference for a static universe philosophically, so he introduced another term in his equations. This term can be interpreted as an energy density for the vacuum. For a long time, it was known as the cosmological constant. By choosing the right value, Einstein was able to allow for a static universe. Later, when the universal expansion was discovered, Einstein said the cosmological constant was his 'biggest blunder'.

After that, the cosmological constant was usually assumed to be zero. The original equations without the extra term were used to formulate the basic Big Bang theory.

But, not all that long ago, it was found that the expansion of the universe is currently accelerating, which is NOT allowed by the basic equations of general relativity. But, by taking a different value than Einstein's proposal, an accelerating universe *is* allowed if there is a cosmological constant.

Because of the interpretation of this constant as a vacuum energy density, it has been called dark energy. In this formulation, it has the unusual property that it keeps the same density upon expansion: hence why it is considered a vacuum energy density.

There are several competing models for dark energy that allow for it NOT to keep constant density upon expansion, but at this point the evidence isn't good enough to distinguish between the different models.

Dark matter, on the other hand, acts like regular matter: its density goes down when it expands. it was originally proposed when the velocities of stars in other galaxies didn't match the predictions based on the amount of visible matter to produce gravitational effects. there had already been a long history of using gravity as a way to find things not previously detected (the planet Neptune is a famous example).

While the velocity curves for galaxies were the first evidence for dark matter, they are far from being the only evidence. Dark matter also shows up when studying clusters of galaxies and their stability. And, we have been able to map out where dark matter is using what is known as gravitational lensing.

Alternative theories have been proposed which modified the description of gravity instead of adding extra matter, but a number of studies have shown that those alternative proposals also need at least some hidden matter to explain the observations.

Dark matter also leaves a signature in the background radiation and the amount required for this signature is the same as the amount required for gravitational lensing, velocity curves, and galactic clusters.

The *big* question isn't whether dark matter exists or not. The big question is what it is made of. There are a number of proposals from the particle physics community: axions, supersymmetric partners, etc.

What we know about dark matter is the following:
1. We can plot where it is around most galaxies using gravitational lensing.
2. We know it does not interact strongly with light (photons). If it did, we would be able to see it directly.
3. It is not primarily 'bosonic matter'. Most matter around us is made of protons, neutrons, and electrons, with most of the mass in the protons and neutrons. If dark matter was primarily made of these, it would have affected the abundances observed of the light elements.
4. It does not interact strongly with ordinary matter. In fact, in many situations we have observed, it passes right through ordinary matter with no observable interaction at all.
5. It is primarily 'cold', meaning it is not moving at relativistic speeds (like neutrinos do). If it were, the effects of galactic development would be quite clear.

What we do not know about dark matter:
1. What it is made of. There are several proposals, but none of the proposed particles has been observed in our labs as yet.
2. What the mass is of the particles that make it up. Past the observation that the particles are not relativistic, so are at least somewhat massive (more so than neutrinos), we only have guesses about the mass of the individual particles that make up dark matter. We know the *total* amount of mass fro the gravity studies, but not much more.

Anyway, the current 'standard model' for the expansion of the universe is the lambda-cold dark matter theory based on general relativity.

Lambda is the greek symbol used for the cosmological constant, and CDM is the cold dark matter.

It should be pointed out that the background radiation can distinguish between dark matter and ordinary matter contributions. It also has a wealth of information about the early universe and its dynamics.

So, this is what we know so far.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Alternative theories have been proposed which modified the description of gravity instead of adding extra matter, but a number of studies have shown that those alternative proposals also need at least some hidden matter to explain the observations.
I liked MoND. It would have been a more elegant solution. But with galaxy mergers that distorted the dark matter distribution and galaxies (seemingly) without any dark matter, I think that idea is no longer viable.
What we do not know about dark matter:
1. What it is made of. There are several proposals, but none of the proposed particles has been observed in our labs as yet.
2. What the mass is of the particles that make it up. Past the observation that the particles are not relativistic, so are at least somewhat massive (more so than neutrinos), we only have guesses about the mass of the individual particles that make up dark matter. We know the *total* amount of mass fro the gravity studies, but not much more.
3. We don't know how dark matter interacts with itself.
While we do have galaxies without (or only very little) dark matter, it seems that we have no galaxies made of dark matter. (Which could only be detected by an unexpected lensing effect without a visible galaxy.)
That and the way dark matter is distributed in galaxies suggests that dark matter may not interact gravitationally with itself.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I liked MoND. It would have been a more elegant solution. But with galaxy mergers that distorted the dark matter distribution and galaxies (seemingly) without any dark matter, I think that idea is no longer viable.

Agreed. I was sort of hoping MOND (or TeVeS) would be the solution, but it seems like that just isn't the case.

3. We don't know how dark matter interacts with itself.

Good point! I saw a report that claimed to detect some self-interaction of dark matter, but I don't think it was conclusive.

While we do have galaxies without (or only very little) dark matter, it seems that we have no galaxies made of dark matter. (Which could only be detected by an unexpected lensing effect without a visible galaxy.)

Right. Another good point.

Also: why do spiral galaxies have a lot of dark matter, but elliptical galaxies don't?

That and the way dark matter is distributed in galaxies suggests that dark matter may not interact gravitationally with itself.

OK, that I had not seen. If true, that would definitely change the model. Reference?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Also: why do spiral galaxies have a lot of dark matter, but elliptical galaxies don't?
I heard of the hypothesis (don't remember where, PBS space-time?) that galaxies produce their own dark matter, possibly in their central black holes. I don't think that holds water since simulations that don't have dark matter from the start don't produce the patterns we see.
OK, that I had not seen. If true, that would definitely change the model. Reference?
Just my overacting fantasy. To me it seems, backed by said evidence, that dark matter doesn't clump like regular matter. It doesn't build galaxies of its own. From the (admittedly low resolution data) it looks like dark matter is usually uniformly distributed around a galaxy like a gas of constant pressure, no clumps, not following local clumps of regular matter and too slow to immediately follow the regular matter when it gets yanked away in a galaxy merger. It may even have an anti-gravitational effect on its own, counteracting any local clumping.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I heard of the hypothesis (don't remember where, PBS space-time?) that galaxies produce their own dark matter, possibly in their central black holes. I don't think that holds water since simulations that don't have dark matter from the start don't produce the patterns we see.

Just my overacting fantasy. To me it seems, backed by said evidence, that dark matter doesn't clump like regular matter. It doesn't build galaxies of its own. From the (admittedly low resolution data) it looks like dark matter is usually uniformly distributed around a galaxy like a gas of constant pressure, no clumps, not following local clumps of regular matter and too slow to immediately follow the regular matter when it gets yanked away in a galaxy merger. It may even have an anti-gravitational effect on its own, counteracting any local clumping.

Interesting. I had seen evidence of density cusps of dark matter at galactic centers.

I'm skeptical of a different gravitational result for dark matter mostly because I would expect it to follow geodesics as well. I also recall some rather clumpy maps of dark matter distribution.

More data required, clearly.
 
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