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What Atheists Do Not Grasp--and Why

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
Driving through the hills of southern California in the summer is like driving through the folds in a blanket of golden velvet. Up close, though, you see only thorns and brambles. View a mosaic from a distance and the image is clear and beautiful; up close, the image is lost in a jumble isolated bits and pieces.

In the same way, an extremely large, complex and highly automatic-appearing mechanism naturally conceals the intelligence behind it from any and all inhabits very far below the level of the Originator. Therefore, is it inevitable that universe mechanisms would appear mindless to the lower orders intelligences such as man. Making it a conclusion, however, is a matter of philosophy rather than one of evidence or experience.

Assuming the presence of an Originator, it would be a kind of intellectual rape if It compelled in any way, from within or from without, recognition of it by creatures that incapable or unwilling to explore life beyond the most coarse elements of life— physical sensation, emotion and intellect— and cruel to give the same creature a strong desire for knowledge placed beyond his reach. Hence, there is religion. And while wholly natural, it is also optional.

Rationalism’s concept of perfection does not admit to a yearning and need for completion— the disclosure of Totality in the self and the self in Totality. It prefers the perfection of a stone, a perfection in which the relationship between the part and the Whole which is not a drama of two that finds resolution in a third. Religion, on the other hand, is Spirit acting in cooperation with the human mind and gives birth to a living, immortal soul. To rationalism this is superstition. It simply cannot relate to the symbolic character of the language employed by religion any more than an ape can relate to the meaning contained in a book. Even amongst religionists, conditioned to revere objectivity above personal experience, the concept of the union of two natures—God in man and man in God—is confusing.

Religion is by no means a disclosure or experience of anything in the world of things. God is not an object or thing, but spirit. One cannot experience or enter into communion with spirit through any sort of objectification. God is life, and his Being comes to light after the division of subject and object. A doctrine that professes to meet the needs of abstract reason kills God, so to speak, by depriving him of a dynamic presence in the interior life.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I agree there are limits to human understanding, Rolling Stone, but I think the atheist and the religionist are in the same boat when it comes to that. To say the atheist is the only one of the two who fails to grasp all that's implied by the fact there are limits to human understanding is a bit misleading, don't you think? After all, there are plenty of theists who also fail to grasp all that's implied.
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
Conditioning is difficult to overcome, don't you think? Even when explicitly told that God is not an object the intellect can grasp, non-spiritual minds—atheist and religionist alike—insist on thinking the intellect is the only viable method of apprehension.
 

Aasimar

Atheist
Conditioning is difficult to overcome, don't you think? Even when explicitly told that God is not an object the intellect can grasp, non-spiritual minds—atheist and religionist alike—insist on thinking the intellect is the only viable method of apprehension.
Therin lies a conundrum. The people who told me God is not an object intellect can grasp are the same species as me. I have the choice to 1. Believe they somehow know more then me and believe them or 2. Dismiss what they are saying as wishful thinking and continue to seek the answers. The beauty of intelligence is in the discovery of new answers, I hope we never find the final answer, life with all the answers would be incredibly dull.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
A true atheist would never buy a used car.
 

Aasimar

Atheist
Here's a good way of putting it. As an agnostic I do not believe in god, though I do not deny that he may exist. If he does exist, he cannot be grasped by the senses I have been given. You can be in awe of that which you do not understand without claiming to understand. I think your post was directed only at Athiests though, as Agnostics have a small but fundamental difference.

Rationalism’s concept of perfection does not admit to a yearning and need for completion

That is a very good way of looking at it, but my personal credo would be the exact same quote, slightly modified.

Agnosticism's concept of perfection admits to a yearning for but not a need to achieve completion. Of course we want the answers. But we don't need them.

Now I've gotta go get some delicious chinese food from a mom and pop joint down the street (YUM!) be back in awhile.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
I have all the answers, I just don't understand any of them
icon14.gif
 

Kungfuzed

Student Nurse
recognition of it by creatures that incapable or unwilling to explore life beyond the most coarse elements of life— physical sensation, emotion and intellect—
Who exactly is this referring to?

It simply cannot relate to the symbolic character of the language employed by religion any more than an ape can relate to the meaning contained in a book. Even amongst religionists, conditioned to revere objectivity above personal experience, the concept of the union of two natures—God in man and man in God—is confusing.
Are the thousands of different religions also all victims of rationality? Does critical thinking make people spiritually retarded?

Religion is by no means a disclosure or experience of anything in the world of things. God is not an object or thing, but spirit. One cannot experience or enter into communion with spirit through any sort of objectification. God is life, and his Being comes to light after the division of subject and object. A doctrine that professes to meet the needs of abstract reason kills God, so to speak, by depriving him of a dynamic presence in the interior life.
How do you discern "spirit", or the dynamic subjective presence of God, from imagination?
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
How do you discern "spirit", or the dynamic subjective presence of God, from imagination?

For some spiritualists - myself included - there may be no difference. Imagination is the faculty that allows us to fully explore the depths of our Life Experience. It is where personal meaning takes precedence over objective truth.

Imagination exists in the mind: the conceptual experience of being sentient. It is not quite reality, but exists in a personal reality. And the personal reality may as well be the true reality. (Couldn't the shared view of reality be restated as the shared view of imagination, since all experience is interpreted through the brain?)

Imagination is my inner world, my inner experience, my Spirit.
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
Does critical thinking make people spiritually retarded?
Well....yes, if it is assumes critical thinking is the only viable method of apprehension. "Critical thinkers" have a tough time understanding that something does not have to be factual in order to be true.
How do you discern "spirit", or the dynamic subjective presence of God, from imagination?
And here's the proof: trying to get me to objectify that what I just said cannot be objectified. If I were to say, "We know the eye by its seeing and not by it being seen," chances are pretty good some will immediately grasp its meaning and others will be left scratching their heads wondering how it relates to the question.
 

eudaimonia

Fellowship of Reason
Well....yes, if it is assumes critical thinking is the only viable method of apprehension. "Critical thinkers" have a tough time understanding that something does not have to be factual in order to be true.

I think that they tend to understand this perfectly well. Their position really is that a claim has to pass that critical thinking filter in order to be justified, and therefore to count as knowledge.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Conditioning is difficult to overcome, don't you think? Even when explicitly told that God is not an object the intellect can grasp, non-spiritual minds—atheist and religionist alike—insist on thinking the intellect is the only viable method of apprehension.


Not when you have an individualist frame of mind.........:p
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
After all, there are plenty of theists who also fail to grasp all that's implied.
I don't think that ANY truly honest theist will claim that they fully understand God or the implications of God. It takes a life time to do that.
 

Kungfuzed

Student Nurse
I must admit that nothing makes me bristle more than reading this kind of self serving question. It belies a level of animosity that is truly alarming.
And yet the answer to the question was yes. I remember, back when I was a young immature theist, thinking the same thing. How could people possibly not believe in God? They've hardened their hearts. They must be spiritually bankrupt. Or maybe they just refuse to believe in God so they don't have to keep any of the commandments. I'm willing to bet many people born and raised as theists at least think these things in the back of their mind.
 
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