What are your views on Pastors living lavishly?

[Trackdayguy]

I think the biggest tragedy is that well meaning, kind and genuine people believe this bunk.

 

[Kenny]

First off I am a believer, I just do not believe as you do. Second, whether a person is "high up" or not, religion is not a business. Was Jesus paid?

Good question..; let's see what scriptures say:

Luke 8:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
8 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,

2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

3 And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

3Among the women were Susanna and Joanna, the wife of Chusa, who managed King Herod’s household. Many other women who supported Jesus’ ministry from their own personal finances also traveled with him.

These were just the women and women of substance.

John 12:6 Judas, having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it.

If your really study, you will find that what Jesus was saying wasn't that you can't have money, for it is needful, but rather don't let money have you.

You can be poor and be in the position of money having you. Do you have problems giving?

 

[Kenny]

My question is, Where do people get the tithe from, if ask a Christian, they will say, we as Christians don't go by the old testament, But yet the tithe is old testament.
There is no where in the new testament that Gentiles are to tithe.

2nd Corinthians 9:7--"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give, not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loves a cheerful giver"

Therefore, a person doesn't give what they are told to give, But give according as they purposeth in their heart ( who knows better what that person finances are, what they are able to give or not give ?
So let them give. Not grudgingly what they are giving, ( don't give if you are not able, but if you give, don't walk away grudgingly in what you gave, if you can't afford it, then don't give.
Nor of a necessity, ( in other words, don't make it a necessity what you give)
For God loves those, who gives cheerfully gives.

Good question. Hebrews 7 is where the NT speaks of it. But 2nd Cor is the basis of any giving - tithes or otherwise.

 

[Kenny]

I think the biggest tragedy is that well meaning, kind and genuine people believe this bunk.

As one who saw the benefits when I had nothing, yes, I do believe in giving.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's because these Pastors are professionals. Sadly NOT mentioned in the Bible.

Seems like you’re in some sort of loop there. They’re professionals because they’re professionals?

Maybe it should be legislated that Pastors are all volunteers, NO SALARY

I’m not suggesting anything like that. I’d rather not entangle religion and government.

I just don’t want to subsidize the practice and I want to be free to criticize it. But as long as there isn’t any fraud or misrepresentation, and as long as the tithers are coming into it with full knowledge of what they’re giving their money to, their decision to fund their pastor’s lifestyle is their own business.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

My question is, Where do people get the tithe from, if ask a Christian, they will say, we as Christians don't go by the old testament, But yet the tithe is old testament.
There is no where in the new testament that Gentiles are to tithe.

2nd Corinthians 9:7--"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give, not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loves a cheerful giver"

Therefore, a person doesn't give what they are told to give, But give according as they purposeth in their heart ( who knows better what that person finances are, what they are able to give or not give ?
So let them give. Not grudgingly what they are giving, ( don't give if you are not able, but if you give, don't walk away grudgingly in what you gave, if you can't afford it, then don't give.
Nor of a necessity, ( in other words, don't make it a necessity what you give)
For God loves those, who gives cheerfully gives.

Erm.... did you forget Jesus' answer to one of lifes' questions?

That whole "Render unto Caesar's that is Caesar's" bit. That pretty much commands Jesus' followers to pay taxes, and also pay the church what it's due. (Matthew 22:21)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

However, it is quite hard to do pre-marital counseling, post marital counseling, officiating marriages, funerals, hospital visitations, prison visitations, maintenance, message preparations, vacation Bible schools, Bible University (accredited), accounting, baptism, serve as an architect, construction worker, general contractor, etc etc and do it effectively without a salary.

Funny that you wouldn't see that as a paid job.

Counseling, accounting, and architecture are all professional occupations that an unqualified person, e.g. a typical pastor, has no business doing.

Doing baptisms, marriages, funerals, etc. for pay is considered simony in many denominations - a serious sin. And for those that don’t consider it a sin... it’s very common for officiants to work a full time job at something else and do officiating part time on a fee-for-service basis.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Its just a bunch of religious rules, based on cherry picking. maybe we should stone our daughters if they get pregnant

That all depends who rules those are,
They are man made rules.

 

[Audie]

And yet these people give crisis intervention, stop riots, offer free help and help communities inprove the living conditions. They get people off the streets, stop suicides and make productive people that the community benefits from. They provide drug rehab, rescue people from sex slavery, offer food for the hungry and so much more. Like support public schools with volunteerism and gifts, support police with counseling, are there when a hurricane passes through et al.

Hmmmmm.... maybe they give more than what taxes would have provided since the government notoriously misuse money.

I wonder how much help you provide? Maybe we should double tax you to make up for your lack.

Right ! the megachurch rec halls are to feed the hungry! Give succor unto the grieving widow!

Why are you so eager to support corruption?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Good question. Hebrews 7 is where the NT speaks of it. But 2nd Cor is the basis of any giving - tithes or otherwise.

Had you started at the beginning of Chapter 7 of Hebrews, you would haved found that Hebrews 7 is about the old testament Tithes.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Erm.... did you forget Jesus' answer to one of lifes' questions?

That whole "Render unto Caesar's that is Caesar's" bit. That pretty much commands Jesus' followers to pay taxes, and also pay the church what it's due. (Matthew 22:21)

Did you forget that Jesus was sent only to Israel, Therefore Jesus was in the speaking to those of Israel about their tithings.
Matthew 22:21

 

[sealchan]

Inspired by the following video:

I placed this in the religious debates section because often times some Christians tend to defend these types of pastors. I do not believe religious organizations ought to get tax breaks nor do I think being a minister ought to be considered a "job" where you get a salary. This man and his subsequent spending are the reason why many atheists think people of "faith" are very gullible and ignorant because people give away their money without questioning where it will go. It is one thing to pay tithes out of the kindness of your heart and with good intent, it is another to pay tithes unquestionably and not seeing any progress in the congregation to which one attends.

I have, for years now, begun the practice of tithing (although it is not literally a full 10% of my gross or take-home pay) and have decided to administer it myself. My challenge has been the following:

• Choosing among many charitable/non-profit causes to give it to
• Choosing the context in which it is given if I consider personal acquaintances as recipients
• Considering the reasons why I make a choice that I am making to hand out this money

These sorts of questions are hard for me to answer given my philosophical nature. But, for the most part, the money sits in an account and accumulates. Perhaps I just need to be more patient and wait for that moment when I feel it is right and that I am not acting for selfish reasons.

I think that it is in the best interests of all pastors to have full disclosure over how their income is used. I also think that a pastor can receive an income because I believe that pastors do have a lot of work to do in their study of the scripture and their work as leader of a church. Having an outside job would limit their ability to focus and study.

But they should be self-accountable for their property and willing to share that with their congregation and any relevant legal authorities where applicable. There is so much in the teachings of Jesus that this should be done it seems to me not only to be a responsibility of any pastor, but also a useful spiritual tool to ensure that they are maintaining their own spiritual health.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And yet these people give crisis intervention, stop riots, offer free help and help communities inprove the living conditions. They get people off the streets, stop suicides and make productive people that the community benefits from. They provide drug rehab, rescue people from sex slavery, offer food for the hungry and so much more. Like support public schools with volunteerism and gifts, support police with counseling, are there when a hurricane passes through et al.

I have my doubts the ones brought up in the OP do such things.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Having an outside job would limit their ability to focus and study.

College students regularly do it. And some, like doctors, sink themselves in debt and have to squeeze everything they can get out of every last penny while they are in med school.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Did you forget that Jesus was sent only to Israel, Therefore Jesus was in the speaking to those of Israel about their tithings.
Matthew 22:21

I'm only going by what your book claims, here. In truth, I think the entire thing is pure myth, and Jesus as a human, never actually existed.

But sure-- feel free to interpret it however you like. Isn't that why there are 40,000 different versions of "christian" and counting?

 

[sealchan]

College students regularly do it. And some, like doctors, sink themselves in debt and have to squeeze everything they can get out of every last penny while they are in med school.

Certainly, but I often warn people against becoming overly busy whenever possible. Many students can elect to go into debt during their education in order to more fully focus on their studies and improve their chance for success. Alternately, for a short term goal of two to four to eight years, one can certainly choose to sacrifice much of the qualitative aspects of one's life in order to secure an opportunity that will more than pay for itself in this respect.

But one should avoid making a life-long career out of such hyper-focused goals. The pastor who has time to raise his own family is one who has better qualifications to spiritually advise those who raise families about family issues.

Quality of life and knowledge arises out of the relative simplicity of a life that has free, disposable time that gives one the needed perspective to find the value in what one has rather than to continually chase down the next goal or acquisition to fill that need for value.

 

[Trackdayguy]

That all depends who rules those are,
They are man made rules.

Please explain which rules are man made, this one: Deuteronomy 22.21 "she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death"

 

[Kenny]

Really? At what cost? 10 cents on the dollar? Less? The FACT is, the majority of these alleged "charities" keep far more than a mere 90% of the income. Of which they spend on purely selfish reasons, such as electricity, salaries, fees, upkeep, printing-propaganda, and similar things.

And the COST to the communities! The LOST TAXES because these massive, expensive TAX HAVENS take up valuable lands that could otherwise be .... PRODUCTIVE.

could you please give me supportive evidence?

So, yeah.... "improve" for a certain level of "improvement". Right.

Obviously you aren't involved.

Yean, maybe they DO NOT. ALL the larger churches are sinkholes of money-- much less than 10 cents on the dollar goes back to the communities. MUCH LESS.

supportive evidence please?

Right back atcha, Mr Hypocrite.

i'm not the one who brought the subject up. I'm just showing how, as compared to 90% of all people of the world, you are filthy rich.

 

[Kenny]

Counseling, accounting, and architecture are all professional occupations that an unqualified person, e.g. a typical pastor, has no business doing.

yet, to stretch the dollar, we do whatever we have to do. And counseling is very typical for a pastor.

Doing baptisms, marriages, funerals, etc. for pay is considered simony in many denominations - a serious sin. And for those that don’t consider it a sin... it’s very common for officiants to work a full time job at something else and do officiating part time on a fee-for-service basis.

Wrong application.

It isn't that they do these things "for pay" but rather they get a salary to do those things. Why the twisting of words?

 

[Kenny]

Right ! the megachurch rec halls are to feed the hungry! Give succor unto the grieving widow!

Why are you so eager to support corruption?

I don't support corruption. I am sure there are in many instances. But I am also very aware of mega churches who are changing the world.

Support the good ones, don't support the bad one. Be like a cow, eat the hay and leave the stubble.