What are your views on Pastors living lavishly?

[Vinayaka]

But I’m a bit out my depth. I’ve been on several not-for-profit boards - and was actually involved with setting one up - but I’m not sure which normal rules churches get exempted from, so take everything I’m saying as a “best case.”

As was I. In our constitution we had to show the annual financial report to all members of the society. Salary of priest was decided as 'the going rate' for a similar job. Trustees didn't even receive honorariums for out of pocket expenses. So this entire idea of setting up some sort of for profit religious business isn't something I'm familiar with at all. Seems quite ungodly to me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So although this doen't answer my question, am I correct to assume they founded their own churches, and now run them like businesses?

Often yes... or they were founded by a close family member.

Among the larger churches around here, it’s very common that the core ministry team is the founding husband/wife couple plus their adult kids.

Edit: here, the main difference between a business and a church is that a church can’t have share capital and the church itself can’t be intended to run a profit or actually run a significant profit over the long term... but salaries and other payouts to the founders would be expenses, not profits.

 

[Fool]

So although this doen't answer my question, am I correct to assume they founded their own churches, and now run them like businesses?

very much so.

they can't profit from what they can't control.

jimmy swaggart
jim and tammy baker
ted haggard
Eddie Long


are a few that fell from grace after their dramas became publicized.

most of those who live opulently and are religious get away with their offenses until they usually commit some sexual type of adversity.

adultery seems to be the greatest of the 10 commandments.

Crime History: TV preacher Jimmy Swaggart caught with prostitute for second time

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...3c0-ac57-c1dc9751fe51/?utm_term=.00e4dfb3ca98

Disgraced pastor Haggard admits second relationship with man - CNN.com

Bishop Eddie Long, controversial megachurch pastor, dies at 63 - CNN


now if you will turn your bibles to

Ezekiel 23:20
For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

they just can't ignore that fire down below that fire can't seem to be suppressed indefinitely until it blows.

 

[Vinayaka]

very much so.

Thanks. All sounds downright unreligious to me. But hey, I'm just a cynical old b_____ard.

 

[David T]

People don't fully realize the extent to which religion is a business and lucrative career path for some Christian clergy because Christianity itself puts such an emphasis on not becoming rich and wealthy. It's hard sometimes to wrap your head around what a hypocrite your pastor is.

So far as I know, American Evangelicals tend to be the Christian clergy who have the least compunction about using their ministry to make themselves rich and wealthy. But what can that be attributed to? Is it a fault of Evangelicalism or of American culture in general?

Americans in general admire rich and wealthy people to the point of fawning over them, and excusing almost any negative behavior of theirs, up to and sometimes including criminal behavior. We loves us a rich and wealthy man or woman. So is it Christian Evangelicalism or American culture in general?

Last, some clergy in nearly every religion aspire to wealth and riches. What makes Christian clergy different is that Christianity itself is so easily interpreted as idealizing poverty. Hence, a "fat" Christian pastor is most likely a hypocrite, while a fat clergy man or woman in another religion might not be a hypocrite at all.

Church didn't invent dysfunctionalism, although they seem hell bent on perfecting it at times. But I call That normal.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I believe that the majority of people are good but we must be vigilant so that kindness and generosity are not abused.

It may be that groups of people should handle the finances as opposed to one individual, This may lessen the chance of corruption but not entirely eliminate it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

So although this doen't answer my question, am I correct to assume they founded their own churches, and now run them like businesses?

Sometimes. Rock Church of Virginia Beach, VA was founded by a couple during the late 70's or early 60's. They were very successful and began to train Associate ministers who then would found other 'Rock Church' buildings and receive training and administrative support in exchange for financially supporting their alma mater, reportedly through a tithe of some kind but amounts are not publicly disclosed. The number of franchised and derivative mom & pop startups is at least 100.

Many other ministries learned from and benefited from their successes, however they were not the only ones to succeed this way in the 70's. Similar operations include The Vinyard churches, plus another totally separate string of Rock Churches, The Open Door Chapel chuches and others. The mainstream churches took notice and began to borrow practices from the newer franchises, even churches with a liturgy.

Some of the more recent ones started in the 80's with names like New Life though its not as clear whether they share a franchise relationship. Additionally there are some new seminaries and missionary authorities founded by famous TV preachers, and many ministers will choose one of them to join. They somewhat reflect the Southern Baptist Convention in function. Ministers will receive various support materials through them, magazines for their congregations and other kinds of training, probably for a fee or donation. They also sponsor conferences for ministers in their circles. By means of these a fresh recruit can be a fancy minister in under a year.

 

[Thief]

I lived next door to Monsignor ...........

He lived quite well, smoking fat cigars
and was very plump himself

and he quoted scripture .....poorly

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I placed this in the religious debates section because often times some Christians tend to defend these types of pastors.

I don't even think this is a Christian or an American problem. Almost all ancient temples around the globe were essentially tourist traps.

Priest: You can only sacrifice here at the temple.
You: But why?
Priest: It's where God eats or whatever.
You: I can save a lot of walking by just cooking God something at the house.
Priest: But then we'll starve -- I mean, God needs insane levels of ritualistic silliness which the layperson will just screw up.

Really? And just how do you think they are suppose to live? Why should you get a salary?

They can live in their houses. The most productive workers aren't getting the billions CEOs get.

Is that why you think all doctors are in it for money? Because one overcharged? Do you not go to the dentist because one drilled where there was no cavity and because he drives a Mercedez Benz?

Fraudulent or malpractice cases should rightfully have their licenses taken away. Who takes the license of a greedy pastor?

However, you do not pay tithes out of the kindness of your heart... do you know why tithing is done?

Religious institutions told people there should be an irrelevant middle man.

Me: I see a hungry guy on the street. I should go grab him a burger.
Church: No, you should give the money to us. We'll help the poor. For every dollar you give us, a penny will go to the poor and the rest will go to ministry purposes, which is really important, because souls and stuff.

it doesn't emulate the frugal lifestyle of the originators of that system. they are basically false prophets.

What kills me about this guy is he's like "I needed to buy tens of thousands of clothes because I sweat." I'm like "LAUNDROMAT".

In Seattle a starter house can be 900,000.00

And they're full of crap. There's no way those houses are worth that much. They're taking people for a ride too.

Why is it any of our business ?

Because fraud is a crime.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Depends what you mean by lavish. In Seattle a starter house can be 900,000.00

Clearly and obviously he doesn't live in a "starter house."

 

[Trackdayguy]

Clearly and obviously he doesn't live in a "starter house."

Maybe its a starter home for a wannabe millionaire

 

[columbus]

Why is it any of our business ?

Because it's a tax payer funded scam.
When churches are treated like everybody else, by the government, they can do whatever they want to. Like McDOnald's or the GOP.
But until then....
No.
Tom

 

[whirlingmerc]

Maybe its a starter home for a wannabe millionaire

I scanned Seattle house prices and only saw a few from 450k - 650k and the problem is the price can be bid up substantially in trying to buy it... but ok lets say 450K it's a lot. Some things are expensive because of location and some things are living much higher than the median. I would question the latter.

 

[Trackdayguy]

Because it's a tax payer funded scam.
When churches are treated like everybody else, by the government, they can do whatever they want to. Like McDOnald's or the GOP.
But until then....
No.


Tom

 

[Trackdayguy]

I guess so

 

[Ponder This]

Ecclesiastes 1:9

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."​

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

Really? And just how do you think they are suppose to live? Why should you get a salary?


I see. So because one person is doing something wrong, atheists should lump all people of "faith" together. All people of "faith" are gullible and ignorant. Somehow that statement sounds... well.... kinda ignorant.

Is that why you think all doctors are in it for money? Because one overcharged? Do you not go to the dentist because one drilled where there was no cavity and because he drives a Mercedez Benz?


The first reasonable statment you have made... there is hope for you. However, you do not pay tithes out of the kindness of your heart... do you know why tithing is done?

Yes, pastor should receive some money for the upkeep of the church and their survival, but that doesn't give them the right to unjustly swindle people of faith's money to live in lavish houses while their members struggle to get by.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Inspired by the following video:

I placed this in the religious debates section because often times some Christians tend to defend these types of pastors. I do not believe religious organizations ought to get tax breaks nor do I think being a minister ought to be considered a "job" where you get a salary. This man and his subsequent spending are the reason why many atheists think people of "faith" are very gullible and ignorant because people give away their money without questioning where it will go. It is one thing to pay tithes out of the kindness of your heart and with good intent, it is another to pay tithes unquestionably and not seeing any progress in the congregation to which one attends.

Honestly I don't view them as being pastors or any type of clergy.

They are professional salesman and they are very good at their trade.

My heart doesn't bleed as much for the gullible either in spite of some of the sad stories I hear. It's just the economic version of the "Darwin Awards", along with the saying, "A fool and his money are soon parted".

Anybody stupid enough to willingly support these people get exactly what they deserve.

An Incredibly rich con man/woman fleecing them for everything they got of whom they think they are the greatest thing on earth.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Honestly I don't view them as being pastors or any type of clergy.

They are professional salesman and they are very good at their trade.

My heart doesn't bleed as much for the gullible either in spite of some of the sad stories I hear. It's just the economic version of the "Darwin Awards", along with the saying, "A fool and his money are soon parted".

Anybody stupid enough to willingly support these people get exactly what they deserve.

An Incredibly rich con man/woman fleecing them for everything they got of whom they think they are the greatest thing on earth.

Agreed

 

[Kenny]

Sorry that I have to remind this, but what were you saying about atheism and communism being hand-in-hand in the other thread today?

All in context, my friend