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Featured What are your views on Pastors living lavishly?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Epic Beard Man, May 20, 2018.

  1. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Inspired by the following video:



    I placed this in the religious debates section because often times some Christians tend to defend these types of pastors. I do not believe religious organizations ought to get tax breaks nor do I think being a minister ought to be considered a "job" where you get a salary. This man and his subsequent spending are the reason why many atheists think people of "faith" are very gullible and ignorant because people give away their money without questioning where it will go. It is one thing to pay tithes out of the kindness of your heart and with good intent, it is another to pay tithes unquestionably and not seeing any progress in the congregation to which one attends.
     
    #1 Epic Beard Man, May 20, 2018
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  2. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    People don't fully realize the extent to which religion is a business and lucrative career path for some Christian clergy because Christianity itself puts such an emphasis on not becoming rich and wealthy. It's hard sometimes to wrap your head around what a hypocrite your pastor is.

    So far as I know, American Evangelicals tend to be the Christian clergy who have the least compunction about using their ministry to make themselves rich and wealthy. But what can that be attributed to? Is it a fault of Evangelicalism or of American culture in general?

    Americans in general admire rich and wealthy people to the point of fawning over them, and excusing almost any negative behavior of theirs, up to and sometimes including criminal behavior. We loves us a rich and wealthy man or woman. So is it Christian Evangelicalism or American culture in general?

    Last, some clergy in nearly every religion aspire to wealth and riches. What makes Christian clergy different is that Christianity itself is so easily interpreted as idealizing poverty. Hence, a "fat" Christian pastor is most likely a hypocrite, while a fat clergy man or woman in another religion might not be a hypocrite at all.
     
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  3. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    The last question is very pertinent. I think it maybe a little bit of both. Considering we Americans tend to attribute success with wealth the scales may tip over towards American culture.
     
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  4. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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  5. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    I confess there are a few Christian clergy who are now making millions of dollars that I'd personally enjoy seeing on the border between starving and death. But there are many more Christian clergy with small incomes who I'd personally enjoy seeing comfortably well off.

    Atheists like me, and especially anti-theists, tend not to grasp just how many people become Christian clergy -- not so much because they are fervent about spreading the Christian ideology and saving souls -- but because they consciously or unconsciously wish to do good in the world. Such clergy have the instincts of good social workers, but most likely come from backgrounds that channel them more towards a religious ministry than a secular ministry.

    A friend of mine, for instance, for over twenty years worked as a full time minister never making more than $24,000 in his very best year. He worked his butt off, and preaching was the least part of his job. Consoling the sick, counseling the troubled and disturbed, visiting the lonely, volunteering for nearly every charitable effort in his community from house cleaning for the disabled to house building for the poor, he never had health insurance, nor could his congregation afford a retirement account for him. He and his wife and kids sometimes went hungry at nights due to his dedication to helping people despite being poorly paid.

    He's a friend of mine, but I know he's not alone. There are millions of clergy in America, and many more of them than most of us realize are like my friend or near enough to being like my friend. They far and away outnumber the millionaire Evangelical pastors with their multi-million dollar mansions and private jets.
     
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  6. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Really? And just how do you think they are suppose to live? Why should you get a salary?

    I see. So because one person is doing something wrong, atheists should lump all people of "faith" together. All people of "faith" are gullible and ignorant. Somehow that statement sounds... well.... kinda ignorant.

    Is that why you think all doctors are in it for money? Because one overcharged? Do you not go to the dentist because one drilled where there was no cavity and because he drives a Mercedez Benz?

    The first reasonable statment you have made... there is hope for you. However, you do not pay tithes out of the kindness of your heart... do you know why tithing is done?
     
  7. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    They don't even follow their own religion, Mark 11:15-17 can't even imagine why people would go to these fake pastors.

    As for what I think of them, I think of them like mosquitoes or vampires.
     
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  8. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Sorry that I have to remind this, but what were you saying about atheism and communism being hand-in-hand in the other thread today?
     
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  9. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    it doesn't emulate the frugal lifestyle of the originators of that system. they are basically false prophets.


    He told them: "Take nothing for the journey--no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra shirt.

    heaven isn't for sell like some who tried to make a name for themselves and those buying a stair way to heaven.

    15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

    16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

    17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

    18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!


    Babel has fallen!!!




    Genesis 11:9
    Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

    what is old, is new again. those who will not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
     
    #9 Fool, May 20, 2018
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  10. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Depends what you mean by lavish. In Seattle a starter house can be 900,000.00

    In general living far above the ordinary working person in a church I think is unwise
    and I would question what their real treasure is. Pastors need to take care of their families and should have a living wage but getting rich monetarily is questionable.
     
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  11. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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  12. Trackdayguy

    Trackdayguy Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall

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    Why is it any of our business ?
     
  13. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    What are the circumstances that allow a pastor to live lavishly? Do they start, and own their own church? In my limited experience, a church is usually run by a board of trustees, who are elected, and they set the salaries. Often that salary includes a living space, or house, owned by the church. Bu then this is Canada.
     
  14. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Business is the right word and decline is another.
     
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  15. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Because it is a topic of interest and I have Christian family and I wouldn't want them to be done like this. It is also our business because if we are moral people knowing church organizations taking churchgoers money, we need to do our due diligence.
     
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  16. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/8-richest-pastors-in-america.aspx

    joel osteen
    pat robertson
    billy graham
    joyce miller
    et al


    http://gnosis.org/naghamm/thunder.html
     
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  17. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    this is what happened to someone who offered money for knowledge of the kingdom

    When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money
    and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
    Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!


    you cannot serve love and power over other's as self.
     
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  18. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    My experience is limited as well. All my experience with charities and not-for-profits has been with secular ones.

    Depends how it’s set up. The people being served by the church - or other charity - aren’t necessarily members who can vote in general meetings. Even for a secular not-for-profit, it would be possible to have no “members” other than a close circle of people who were hand-picked by the founder.

    But I’m a bit out my depth. I’ve been on several not-for-profit boards - and was actually involved with setting one up - but I’m not sure which normal rules churches get exempted from, so take everything I’m saying as a “best case.”
     
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  19. Trackdayguy

    Trackdayguy Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall

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    Unfortunately the Pastor has become a position instead of a function, like has already been said the church is a business and the Pastor is the CEO.

    None of it can be found in the Bible.
     
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  20. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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